 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2005-03-11 19:12
I play a Bb Leblanc LL and an A R13. While I like my LL, its easier to blend when I am playing my A R13 with my section. I dont think one can say any of the Big 4 (Yamaha, Leblanc, Buffet, and Selmer) is more superior. I'm pretty sure I would be happy with any of them. However, since R13s tend to own the world which of the 3 brands would blend most easily with R13s but maintain a slightly different approach.
The most obvious answer would be an R13 but I'm wondering if I could come close (with little effort) with another brand. I feel like my LL has a completely different tonal concept than R13s. I'm definately not looking for a copy. Just something that doesn't make me work too hard in an orchestra setting.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-11 19:43
One example: The Chicago Symphony clarinet section all use different brand clarinets. They don't seem to have any "matching" problems.
The initial question is basically meaningless, because mouthpieces, reeds and barrels, among different players, are also different.
How about the differences between embouchures, oral cavities, teeth, and entry angle of the clarinet?
Too many variables.
Your question reminds me of the ill-sighted band directors who all want (or order) their clarinet players to use B45 mouthpieces.
They should all be fired..GBK
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-03-11 20:46
I play an R-13 Bb and an LL A. I'll swap you A's.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-03-11 21:44
I played in a five-person 1st section last summer. I alternated using my LeBlanc Opus and my R-13, with a variety of (fairly closed) mouthpieces. The two players on either side of me played R-13s. I could match their tone quality, color, pitch, etc., with no problem on either instrument. In fact, we three loved it when the other two didn't show up, because we worked so well together. No more dirty looks from the director.
One fellow in the section -- a very good player, but hung up on his own big band jazz style and sound -- played a Selmer Omega with some sort of wide-open mouthpiece and significant vibrato. Got lots of dirty looks from the director.
The fifth member of the section was a young lady (college music-ed student) on a Vito. Her style was just the opposite of the big-band guy -- so quiet and reserved that we weren't sure when (or if) she was playing, even though her fingers were moving and she turned the pages in the right place.
I don't think Vitos are an inherently quiet clarinet, nor do I think that Selmer Omegas are an inherently loud instrument.
As GBK said, the player, and possibly the setup, makes *most* of the difference.
Susan
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-03-11 21:58
In my youth orchestra section, I play Leblanc, and the 2nd clarinet plays R13s, and the bass clarinettist plays a Selmer Bass. No-one complained about blending.
Fact is, you're all playing the same instrument: maybe it's in your head.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Orlando Natty
Date: 2005-03-11 22:28
I agree with you LeWhite. Sometimes I just shake my head at the stuff on this board because it is sooooo fanatical. I considered myself a pretty serious player when I was in college and never heard of half of the stuff that is discussed on here. How the heck do you know what is causing sound problems when there are so many variances (mouthpiece, reed, etc)? I don't hear trumpet players complaining that each member in a section is playing a yamaha or a bach trupmet with a 7c or 3c mouthpiece. There are good and bad instruments, but after that, I think most of the sound stuff discussed on here, from mouthpieces to reeds is a bunch of bunk.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-03-11 23:57
Orlando Natty,
Man, do I like your style (perhaps a tad "in your face") but right on track.
I have an R13, Leblanc L200 and a Dynamic 2, as well as two Selmer Series 9s (a regular and a 9*). I alternate instruments frequently and exist happily with R13s all around me; no one ever complains and I can blend very well (BP02 and SWS MPs).
It's all about having good ears!
HRL
Post Edited (2005-03-12 08:18)
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-03-12 02:05
Hi everyone.
This is all very interesting to me. I play a Buffet R13 Bb and I did play a Selmer Series 10 A in our orchestra until recently. There are 5 of us in our section (too many). The first plays a Yamaha on both clarinets. The second plays an R13 Bb and a Yamaha A. I'm third and sit right in the middle of them all. The fourth plays both Noblets. I have no idea what the fifth plays. We all play different mpcs. and use different reed brands.
We LISTEN to each other and blend. You HAVE to listen to your principal and blend. All of you. There are no two ways about it. I don't care what you play. You blend or you look for a different place to play  We are a very high performance level community orch. and if we don't play well we can be asked not to come back. There's a waiting list for the winds and I don't want to lose my place.
I did replace my Selmer with a Buffet R13 A very close to my Bb serial # just because I am more comfortable with it. I think it is all about the combination and what the player is comfortable with. Don't get hung up on brands. Play them and pick what you like. Above all.........Listen to the players around you and play well!!!! That's the bottom line.
I am right with you GBK on that B45 issue. Our school district does just what you describe and I HATE it. I switch most all my private students to something that fits them better.
Rebecca
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-03-12 02:39
If you can be expected to blend with an entirely different instrument (as is the case whenever you play in unison with another instrument), I dont see why you can't expect to blend with another clarinet player. Regardless of what symbols are etched into the bell.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-12 03:00
Rebecca:
The last time a band director told me that all his students were required to play B45's, I asked him if all the members of his marching band wore the same size shoes.
After all, wouldn't they march better if all the shoes were the identical size?
He quickly got the point and dropped the ridiculous B45 requirement...GBK (a retired band director)
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Author: William
Date: 2005-03-12 14:50
Way to put your foot down, GBK. But I'll bet their articulations would have become more uniform.
You know, identical shoes--identical tongues................
As usual, all the best...William (also a retired--but not tired--band director)
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-03-12 15:32
GBK..........I like that and will use it in the future ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
We are in a very large school district that has a fantastic music program. The orchestra is the top in our state and our choirs and bands are equally superior. I tried very hard to talk with the district music coordinator ( whom I majored in music with at the same university) and couldn't even get an audience with her. I wanted to share the new Forte' clarinet with her to try and convince her that there is a much better option out there for our young players. She did everything in the world to avoid me and even accused me of "pushing" a product. I had nothing personally to gain other than I would definitely spend less time working on my private students messed up clarinets.
People get so ingrained in their heads that only one brand or name of instrument will work and are so bull headed they won't even consider that there are other (better) choices out there.
So.....sinkDrain, I think what you can take from a lot of these responses is that you shouldn't get hung up on brands as much as you need to look individually at the instrument that you sound good on and then use your ears that God gave you and listen. Don't use a cookie cutter approach to clarinet purchase and playing.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-03-12 17:34
Also, as long as the intonation and rhythm of all the clarinetists in the section are fine, a little difference in tone colour can only make it more interesting.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-03-12 20:38
I agree clarnibass. We all listen to our principal and match pitch, style rhythm and try to blend our sound. It's imperative. Even if you don't agree with it........that's what has to happen. R
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-12 22:32
I agree with most of what was said so far, but just to be devils advocate... what about certain brands that tend to have intonation issues, such as Boosey and Hawkes as I am discovering... how well are you going to blend then? and instruments with bigger bore tend to be harder to play in tune if you are used to smaller bore. Granted, you need to learn to adjust, but...
just my two cents. but I generally agree that the brand shouldn't be a factor in proper blending. MPs, reeds, ligs, and technique of the player.
-Lindsie
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-03-12 23:10
I, too, thought that sinkdraiN might be having more intonation problems with the Leblanc. I suspect that he's using the same mpc, ligature & reed on both instruments and perhaps his mpc combination simply matches the R13A better than it does on the Bb Leblanc LL.
However, in re-reading his initial post, he seems to be stating that his greater difficulty with the Leblanc is due to his hearing a different "tonal concept".
I think I understand what he's saying. I have sung in bass sections of choirs all over the country for the past 30 some years and I think I've learned a little bit about blending. However, I, too, have noticed that even if I'm on the same pitch and dynamic level as the singer next to me, there were some that I must admit I could not blend well with. I could tell that the "tonal concepts" of our voices were so different
Perhaps sinkdraiN hears a very similar "tonal concept" when using the R13 and that makes it easier for him to blend. It appears he's having difficulty when different tonal concepts are presented to his ears.
I don't have an answer for your problem, sinkdraiN, but, I think I understand what you're trying to say.
Perhaps those who say "use your ears" can clarify what they are saying.
JMHO
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-03-12 23:31
Often I laugh about the fact that there is the big deal that the players need to play the same clarinet to match. Yet, for example, Player A is on a Buffet R13 (ca 1967) with a Moennig barrel, a Vandoren M13, Bonade ligature and Vandoren traditional reeds. Player B is using an R13 (ca 2003) with a Backun barrel and bell, a Pyne mouthpiece that is medium open tip, Rovner ligature and Gonzalez reeds. How are they matched? The fact that the name stamped on the clarinet is the same?
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-13 00:05
I just re-read the original post and noticed that this person was referring to an A and a Bb... you should know that an A clarinet is much different than a Bb...different timbre. So it's easier to blend with another A if you are on an A as well. I find it harder to blend with my friend who has a buffet A clarinet when I'm on my Buffet Bb clarinet- it's just the timbre difference that you're probably picking up on.
-Lindsie
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-03-13 00:46
Dan,
As far as "Perhaps those who say "use your ears" can clarify what they are saying. " is really about listening to the players of the section that are close and working hard to blend with them (if you can hear them playing, you are on the right track). However, if someone has a very poor concept of tone and/or intonation, this becomes more difficult.
In one of the wind ensembles I play in, there is a player in the row behind me that seems to feel that "she is there to save the section" and thus tends to overblow everything. The person may have a hearing problem and is thus not getting sufficient side-tone to appropriately balance with the others. But then it could be all about ego!
HRL
Post Edited (2005-03-13 01:33)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-03-13 04:24
If it's a clarinet (a good one at least) it's going to sound like a clarinet. The "tonal Concept" is of the player rather than of the instrument imho.
Someone metioned he can't blend with his voice, but that is different. You are born with a certain voice and unless you are willing to cut some body parts (it's probably too late for that too), it's not going to change. A clarinet is still a clarinet. The two most different clarinets will still be much more simlimar than two different human voices.
Post Edited (2005-03-13 05:46)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-03-13 04:51
Have we drifted away from sinkdraiN's original problem? Since he's blending well with his R13A, it appears he's using his ears in the appropriate manner. He has problems blending with his Bb Leblanc. I sense he's using his same hearing technique, so what could the problem be? Is it the "timbre" difference between an A and a Bb clarinet as has been mentioned?
Just curious.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-03-13 08:36
I think most every clarinet section has "one of those players", Hank! They do seem to have an ego issue or may feel that they've been mis-seated in the section so they play so loud to prove to every one around them just how good they think they are. It is so annoying.
My point in saying "use your ears" is to listen well to the people on either side of you. You should always be able to hear them unless it a FFF part. If you don't play any louder than them........then your dynamic level should always be close to where it's supposed to be. It should all come down from your principal player.
If you really don't feel like you're blending, and the clarinet is the problem, then try out some different instruments. You say you're blending on your Buffet A but not as well on the LL Leblanc Bb. Try and play one of the other's Buffet's (your mpc, of course) and see how that sounds. Play a Yamaha, Selmer......Do a little investigation before you just give up on your LL, though. Chances are that no one even notices the difference you hear if....your are tuned up, playing in the proper dynamic range, etc. that you're on a different brand horn. Don't be blatant and play with a jazz vibrato in an orchestra. Use your head and ears and be smart with your playing.
'Nuff said from me. Good luck to you,
Rebecca
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