 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-24 06:36
Hi Reed-makers out there:
I've read with interest many comments on tip-making, most recently the discussion about 'steps' or increments from the heart/blend.
I have ALWAYS been really good at 'carving' tips, EXCEPT when the cane won't cooperate. Softer, more fibrous cane tends to come off unevenly, causing much in the way of frustration. I end up with 'soft spots' where they shouldn't be (the center of the tip, or between the end and the blend) even though I 'follow through' with each stroke. I try different knives, different angles...
Is more frequent knife-sharpening the answer? a slant-wise (almost 90 degrees from the reed fibers) stroke? a new plaque?
If I work on different pieces of cane the same day, I find I'm having no trouble with the denser/harder stuff. But I'd like to 'master' working on softer cane.
Unless of course there are just plain 'duds' out there, and I should learn to pitch the reed in the rubbish bin at an earlier stage...
Thanks!
PS I know I SHOULD invest in a gouger and buy tube cane but up 'til now I've been an amateur/hobbyist/professional sub and have been fine with buying already shaped cane. And now I lack the resources to get a gouger, so for now, I want to use up the shaped cane I already have.
GoodWinds
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-24 12:19
Hello Goodwinds,
You are correct in your slant-wise solution, although 90 degrees could be a little much depending on the situation. I think it's true that any repetitive scrape will leave deeper cuts and/or nicks in the reed. If I want a smooth surface or smooth slope on my reed, I make sure to vary the angle of each stroke every so slightly, so that no one points is overworked.
The tip is obviously the most sensitive area of the reed, and I have found that sometimes I get a sort of ridge before the reed ends. In general this happens mostly in the beginning stages of reed making, when I'm trying to quickly get the reed to at least make a peep, but it does happen in the latter stages of my scraping as well. Sometimes I switch to my Bevel knife (it is heavier than my double hollow ground) and find that it is able to take the ridge out better, along with using angles to relieve the situation.
For myself, if I find something that works, I stick with it. If something doesn't work for me, I've lost the urge to dwell and find out why. Of course, if you only have a certain thing to work with, and don't have access to other options, then of course you will make the best of your situation.
Good luck
Drew S.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-24 14:11
Hi Drew,
thanks for your input.
I'm at the stage (after playing for 35 years) where a little experimentation is warranted. So I am trying out some new things. I find I return to old habits and that is USUALLY good, because I had a very excellent teacher who made fantastic reeds.
I'm moving (very slowly) to a narrower shape, but this has little to do with my tip troubles as of late. It's the quality/type of cane that seems to trigger problems.
GoodWinds
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-24 14:24
Hi Goodwinds,
I'm glad to add what I can to the board. As a new oboist (18 years woodwinds and habitual studying reed maker), I've been doing lots of experimenting and exploring. Unfortunately I have not been trained except for study books and the Bboards, but I make up for it in sheer volume of reedmaking. I don't quite know how yet, but it does seem that cane makes a world of difference. I bought Gonzales and Pisoni cane the same day, and used them on the same amount of staples, and I seemed to go through the Pisoni cane quite a bit faster than the Gonzales cane. As I say, I don't know why. Maybe I just messed up more tips on the Pisoni cane than Gonzales, but at any rate, I'll just stick with Gonzales, even if it's just a "luckier" brand of cane for me.
Drew S.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-05-25 00:56
Scrape the tip when the cane is dry.... that's the best advice my teacher ever gave me! Even if you only leave the reed standing on the table for 15 seconds (don't lick or suck it after), it makes a huge difference. But you are right about really soft-fibrous cane.
Naturally, sharp knives are all-important. As you may know, I don't cotton to the controlled-burr technique, for me a knife must be sharpened to the point it will shave my forearms. That is a bit too sharp, but I get it there and then be really careful while it dulls down to the ideal sharpness. You can find my techniques here:
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/search?q=sharpening
For the longest time, I was in perfect agreement with Jay Light that a curved blend between the heart and the tip softens and warms the tone. But lately, I have been "stepping" tips on reeds that used to blend more.... well, the sound is more distinct, clear (words.... argh words... do we all understand the same thing?), but the actual "choclateyness" remains approximately the same.
I also want to experiment with how accute the V tip is made. I read on the BBoard people saying that the flatter, the better for stability and tuning. My teacher always did them rather obtuse and his sound was legend..... at the time, perhaps today it would be considered normal. That's why I like to experiment.
Then again, the reason I had to step the tips is that the changing seasonal weather turned my reeds to rubber.... race-car tire grade! In fact, some reeds that used to play wonderfully just went wonky and, surprizingly, using wire saved them almost completely.... I never used to do wire!
So the quality of a reed is a function of the weather!!!!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-25 22:51
thank you, Mark, that is my 'hunch' for solving this problem.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-25 22:54
"race car tire grade"?
I personally like using a 'round' or curved shape between heart and tip, but that may just be aesthetics. Some of my older reeds (good tone) are almost straight across. I've only started using the inverted "V" recently.
I guess I'll just keep cranking them out, hoping for that Yureka! moment...
Maybe ANY shape 'twixt heart and tip would work, as long as the blend gets done right.
I DO love the individuality of oboe playing and reed-making!
GoodWinds
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-05-26 19:56
You know, I'm still convinced that each piece of cane wants to be treated differently....
... there's a lot of contention, in short-scrape world, about U versus W in back of the reed. I have found that the W is the natural result of making a good center line and a U results naturally when reducing that line when hard reeds open too much!
Same thing with the V tip and blend, I like to start by making a straight-across steep step for the tip just to get the reed playing the whole range and THEN sweep the corners (of the step) to improve the sound: this makes the V and results in a more curvy blend.
The joke is just recently, with the changing seasons, reeds have changed their character really suddenly. True, I have been using them since last fall, but the change happened too quickly to be a matter of age: they behaved as if they had split. Defining the step (that was lost with the V sweeping) and adding the wire did the trick.... but I expect they'll go wonky again when summer comes for real.
So the "answers" that everyone provides, I think, should be taken in context.
Happy reed hunting!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-05-27 02:08
For the softer canes I use, I find using wet-dry sand paper (silicone type in a very fine 400 - 600 grit) helps. I like it on a fairly dry reed for final adjustments and 'finishing' the reed.
I usually rub a couple pieces of paper together, cut to say 2 in by 4 in strips, lightly to dull them a bit before applying to a reed.
They are very good for the tip and corners of the reed for final thinning. If more of the tip needs attention I then soak the reed and like to wet the paper as well. Wet it and wipe it of any standing water, so it is wet but not dripping wet.
Then with a soaked reed held at an angle, the tip corners can be thinned further back. Stroke the reed only in a pulling motion (do not push forward).
The angle of reed above the paper is 15 - 20 degrees. For extreme tip, I use the same 15 degree angles and swipe the reed sideways one or two times with very little downward pressure.
I only do this if for some reason the knife is not doing the job. And then based on playablility, I will be happy or feel the need to cilp the smallest portion from the tip after the silicone paper has been applied.
These are very small and precise adjustments. And usually those are the final step I take to finish a reed.
With hard cane, I usually don't need more than the knife.
Medium cane is 50/50 for the paper treatment.
Post Edited (2012-05-28 22:44)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-27 04:58
thanks, Craig; I've never tried the sandpaper thing; maybe that will help.
You mention a 'pulling motion'. Is that 'with' the grain, say with the reed tip facing you, and pulling the sandpaper toward you? I couldn't quite visualize that.
So far, using a really sharp knife lightly (no pressure) on a fairly wet reed seems to be helping, too. Just goes to show you how much one can learn, after all this time.
GoodWinds
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-05-27 16:06
Mary,
Holding the cork end closest to me, I pull the tip back towards me to work the corners with the staples angles up and sometimes rotate the reed lightly while in contact with the paper. More rotation toward the side being sanded creates a little more pressure, and flattens out a little more of the corner being sanded. That can also cause more of the extreme side to be sanded and thinned.
BTW, when clipping the tip I point the tip of the reed towards me, tip out on the curved far edge of the block. It makes it easy to see the perpendicular alignment of the tip with the staple, and then I can cut blades evenly or slightly shorter on one side (the side that plays down in the embouchure.
These little things have come to mean a lot to me over the years.
-Craig
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-05-28 22:19
Craig - I've used your sandpaper trick for years. I agree that dulling the paper by rubbing it on itself is a necessity - otherwise it cuts too fast.
The tip is probably blended from the heart out to the thin corners, so when you angle the tip and draw it across the sandpaper you are not just sanding the corner, but the area behind it as the thin corner folds out of the way and the thicker, less pliant cane behind it resists bending. This is good as long as you don't overdo it... I use this to even out the blend, with a flatter angle working the area closer to the heart and a steeper angle working the area closer to the tip and corners.
When my intention is just to thin the corners, I wrap a strip of wet-or-dry over the cork of a tube and use it like a file with the plaque in the reed.
Mary, another point I don't remember seeing addressed on this forum is that magic place where the 'half-moon' of the blend meets the edge of the reed: there is a tendency not to get the knife sufficiently over to the edge, resulting in a tiny tick or 'L' where the curve of the half-moon meets the edge. This tiny chunk of wood makes all the difference between a reed that responds freely and one that doesn't. The sanding technique can refine this place, too.
And, of course, a sharp knife is the first order of business. You don't necessarily need to sharpen it more frequently, but you must sharpen it when it gets dull. If you are getting fuzz instead of clean chips, your knife is dull.
I would suggest you save the blades of your best reeds (an index card and a spot of glue works...). This will give you a sense of the look of the reeds that work, and when you start getting frustrated you might find that you have unknowlingly departed from that model.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-29 02:03
I clip tips like that too, with one side often slightly shorter than the other; it seems to work pretty well IF the reed is symmetrical.
I really dislike it when the clip is NOT perpendicular to the end of the staple, resulting in a 'tilted' tip, but this usually happens if I am not taking my time...
:)
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-29 02:05
Robert, I think it is that "L" thing that has been tripping me up.
In any case, applying all the wisdom from the Board has seemed to fix my problem. Thanks to all who helped me with sage advice!
GoodWinds
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-02 12:30
Craig,
I just wanted to thank you for that note on clipping the tip. Really changed my reed making.
Drew S.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-06-02 16:27
you can take 'just a hair' off a tip of a horrible sounding reed and it turns into a beautiful one. Beware of clipping too much!!
GoodWinds
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-06-03 15:52
Drew,
You are certainly welcome. And take Mary's advice about removing as little as possible. As John Mack mentioned at his camp the year I attended, "learn to clip little more than the spit off the end of the reed."
The offset clip tends to add a little resistance which can be useful. And sometimes doing a very careful equal tip clip adds a little response.
Good tricks to use when you are finishing a good reed candidate.
-Craig
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-03 16:17
Mary and Craig,
I was having the most difficult time clipping tips straight before. No problem anymore, but in truth, the offset tips didn't seem to be too much of a bother. Tuning seemed to come from the longest part of the clip, but I don't try to clip sideways, it just used to happen, and I didn't want to go too far in.
Maybe an interesting point, but I've taken a liking to rounding the tips of my reeds, like sax and clarinet reeds. The response feels great, maybe because the tips don't get caught on each other. I think other oboists cut a 45 degree angle at the sides of the tip, but when I did this I still felt a bit of catching on the reed. Now I make an initial 45 degree clip at the sides of the tip, then clip the angles halfway once more. This is usually enough, maybe a light sand papering, being very careful not to destroy the reed. It may make the tone a bit brighter, but not by much if any.
Drew S.
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