 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: christian_comeau
Date: 2007-02-20 23:29
Since some of you are semi-pros or even professionals, I thought asking this non-clarinet related question...
Why don't some professionnal conductors indicate the correct beat!?
It's almost always a bit too late... I guess it's some king of "expression beating", but I don't see the point!
Do you like this kind of conductors? Why is it so popular?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-21 00:00
Actually expression beating should be BEFORE the beat. The idea is to indicate exactly what you want BEFORE it happens. This has always seemed ideal to me because it is doing the job at hand, instructing the ensemble how something is to be played. If the movement happens at exactly the same time as the sound you no longer have CONDUCTING, you have DANCING.
Then this is just my opinion.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-02-21 00:09
I saw Vienna Phil play in Sydney with Gergiev conducting. I don't think he gave them anything close to the beat.
I think the problem is that some orchestras are at least semi-reliant on having a conductor give them the beat, and some will play together all the time, regardless of what the conductor does.
I think often there is a mismatch, where a conductor does not appreciate the level of dependence of the orchestra. However, I feel if the conductor makes it clear that playing together is largely the orchestras responsibility then the results with an 'unclear' conductor would be much better. Sort of like large-scale chamber music.
Providing the orchestra is ok at leading itself, the worst conductors I have worked with are the ones with lousy rehearsal technique.
Just in response to the previous post: If anything, I think the conducting should be the summary of what is conducted in the rehearsals. If you have seen the dvd of Simon Rattle conducting Mahler 5 with Berlin Phil, it really does just look like he is providing a visual representation of his interpretation of the piece. This *may* happen just prior to the beat, but it doesn't really need to be because they aren't interpreting completely on the fly! In many ways I don't think its so far off interpretative dance!
Post Edited (2007-02-21 00:13)
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2007-02-22 02:28
The technique of many conductors tends to degenerate over time-they keep getting sloppier and sloppier. Since conductors rarely receive feedback they don't realize what is happening. Nobody wants to tell the boss that he's not being clear, on the contrary, everybody is usually busy sucking up to him because they want to play a concerto, etc. It's easier (and safer) for an orchestra to adjust to a bad conductor than to get him to improve.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2007-02-22 04:40
Well, there are a lot of people out there that think a conductor is supposed to beat time constantly.
The gestures that happen from the podium are supposed to not only direct the ongoing interpretation of the work, but also to provide the technical framework that the musicians cannot deal with collectively...issues that arise primarily because of line-of-sight (when you sit at the back row of the winds in a 70+ member symphony without risers in a rehearsal, watching the concertmaster's bow becomes an exercise in selecting the right kind of magnification device under most lighting conditions).
As a conductor working with several youth orchestras, I often get puzzled looks from new students who aren't used to managing their own sense of tempo, and it takes them some time to figure out that I expect them to internalize the beat. In my experience, the individual sections tend to play much better together when they're asked to "play chamber music" instead of attempting to follow a baton being used as a metronome. :P
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Author: D
Date: 2007-02-22 21:25
I think part of the problem is terminology. A conductor is a musician who plays the orchestra/band. A band director/tutor/workshop leader is something entirely different - but this is what most people seem to expect a conductor to be. The person who stands at the front and waves their arms and sings the third trumpet line and tells the violins where to find a harmonic A and tells the flutes they are all sharp and that derek should sit up more is not a conductor.
I do have a particular loathing (inspired by someone who shall remain nameless) for people who try and behave like a conductor when their job in that moment is to be a teacher.
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-02-23 16:33
The best conductors conduct phrases, not beats, most of the time.
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Author: AllanMc
Date: 2007-02-23 22:44
Something else, which might explain a lot of what you've seen, is the tradition in orchestral conducting of conducting before the beat. The conductor shows what he wants on the beat that it is to come, and the orchestra plays slightly after when he conducts. It seems more complicated than just conducting on the beat and showing what you want a beat ahead, but somehow people manage to make it work, and it continues to be used.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-02-24 01:24
Actually I have rarely seen many professional conductors conduct behind the beat. As the above post mentioned, there is usually a delay between the ictus and the orchestra playing sometimes up to about half a beat's duration.
If the conductor's beat is after the orchestra plays, couldn't that indicate that the players are rushing and not actually paying any attention to the conductor?
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Author: gwie
Date: 2007-02-25 03:19
Well, also remember that by the time the sound reaches you out in the hall, you're experience a visual vs. auditory lag...being in the nosebleed section sometimes it feels like the group is a bar behind the conductor!
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-02-25 13:26
I remember attending a Chicago Symphony rehearsal many years ago when Leonard Bernstein was conducting "Sacre de Printemps." He was having trouble getting the long muted trumpet duet precisely together -- finally stopped and asked: "Is my beat unclear?" Adolph "Bud" Herseth, the principal trumpeter responded: "Yes, it's not clear!" Lenny fixed things immediately!
In the National Symphony during a tour in which we played Copland's Third Symphony a number of times, the beginning of the woodwind chorale in the finale was sometimes a bit murky. One of the bassoon players (shameless suck-up) asked Leonard Slatkin if we could rehearse the passage. Slatkin replied: "Not necessary -- I'll just try to conduct it better." He did just that the next performance, and things went just fine!
Watching videos of the Berlin Philharmonic, I am constantly amazed at the unanimity of ensemble despite Karajan's vague, sometimes totally indistinct beat.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-02-25 13:36
If anyone has seen a video of Furtwangler conducting Vienna Phil you realise just how good an orchestra they are.
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Author: johnnymo0829
Date: 2007-02-26 13:40
I have always been worried about my conducting. I am a high school band director and remember how fustrating it was oing between orchestra and band in college where the band director had no recognizable beat pattern to orchestra where he was an amazingly clear conductor. I always find myself asking my principal clarinet if my pattern is clear and find myself practicing my conducting more than my clarinet durring the school year. I try to keep a steady pattern, but what I have found is that as long as your beat 1 is crystal clear and you give enough clear cues there shouldn't be any problems with the group.
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Author: christian_comeau
Date: 2007-02-27 23:31
My mistake, I meant BEFORE the beat (or somtimes even between two beats).
I had never heard about "beating" in anticipation...well this is making more sense now.
As for conducting phrases, why don't they just use thier left hand? Unless their goal is to do a little show (or to wake up) the audience...
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2007-02-28 07:59
A slight diversion form topic: for you conductors: How do you learn conducting? Where do you find a band / orchestra to practise with? When you learn an instrument, if a phrase gives you trouble, you practice it over until you get it right. How can you do the same conducting? Do you have a teacher standing beside you correcting your mistakes as you would in an instrument lesson? Merely curious!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-28 10:59
Mike Clarinet wrote:
> A slight diversion form topic: for you conductors: How do you
> learn conducting?
I can tell you what my eldest son, a grad student in conducting at the Tokyo Geidai (Tokyo National University of Fine Arts and Music), has told me. During classes he conducts two pianists acting as an orchestra under the supervision/guidance of maestro Kobayashi. Outside class he is reading scores, listening to music, studying music history and theory, and conducting an imaginary orchestra. Occasionally he will conduct the student orchestra.
He also conducts an amateur opera company, is an assistant conductor at a professional chamber opera company, conducts an annual musical, and teaches/conducts at a private high school.
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Author: johnnymo0829
Date: 2007-02-28 13:45
What I always try to do to practice conducting is one of 3 things. If I have a cd of the work I will play it as I conduct. This is not always ideal since at the high school level often large works are cut down. I have an arrangement of the 1812 overature where the time on the one I have is about 4 minutes. If the publisher is nice enough to either include a performance of the arrangement it's better, but it is not often the case. The second option and what I find is normally teh best one is that I put the entire work into finale so I can adjust the tempo to my desire and can play it back as often as I want. (It also gives me some practice with the program since I'm as computer literate as fred flinstone). I like this option best since I can go and work out cues and difficult transitions easily since I can isolate a specific measure or even a section of instruments to hear. The third option is that I try to sing along while I conduct.
I try to just give myself a solid hour of time every day to work out my own conducting. When our concerts draw near I isolate my practice to just the music we are doing, I try to memorize the score to atleast one song per concert, but always keep the score in front of me. The more fluently I know the music the less I have to concentrate on the score and the page flips the more attention I can give to making sure my motions are clear and easy to follow. I normally will try to sight read some things to conduct. I'm lucky that the school I'm at has a decient sized library of music, much of it is older songe I have never heard of that were written in the 40's and 50's that never see the light of day anymore. I found this site on the net where you can view mozart scores for free so I love to try the challenge of sight reading these
http://nma.redhost24-001.com/mambo/index.php
As to where I learned to conduct It was mostly a slow progression from basic conducting class to picking the brain of a few conductors I have performed under and varrious books I have read. One of the best books that I have seen is the art of conducting technique by harrald farberman. The book gives great illistrations of proper beat patterns as well as practical advice on every aspect of conducting. At first I thought some of it was a little over the top, there is a chapeter on eyeglasses and haircuts, but the more I thought about it it was great advice about how to not make any aspect of your appearance or movement a distraction to the musicians following you. I have been to a few workshops on conducting, one of the best was on a method of conducting without a true beat pattern, but rather direct physical movements to reflect the tempo and emotion of the music. Basic body movements that are common to all cultures such as a punch or a flick are used. I don't think it is a great method for everything, but I find if I work it in with how I cue different sections I get a little more out of the group. I will tend to keep a steady pattern with my right hand and then work in the "interpretive dance" through my face, left hand and my body motions.
I try to address conducting the same way I address any of the instruments I play. The only way to get better is to practice as much as you can and I do view conducting as performing just as much as playing clarinet.
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-03-01 01:58
Indeed a musician who can adjust to a conductor, instead of complaining about him, becomes a more flexible musician. It's just like playing different reeds, or playing in different weather.
I'm not saying that all conductor's are good at leading musicians (some are better at just mimicking music), but in a willing ensemble, there is always a way musicians seem to adapt themselves to the conductor's style, and they'll often adjust the same way, making an overall better-performing group.
So is always having "your perfect conductor" such a healthy thing?!?
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Author: energia eolica
Date: 2007-03-01 03:41
Johnnymo,
Aren't you afraid that listening to the CD or working with Finale will cause you to be reactionary, rather than making the movements necessary to elicit the proper response and timing from the group?
Post Edited (2007-03-01 20:12)
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Author: johnnymo0829
Date: 2007-03-01 17:11
I was afraid of being set off by the practice with the cd or computer, but I am in a less than ideal situation. The band was split into 4 different classes before I started here and it's not changeing anytime soon. As a result I conduct the better part of 5 hours a day when I get in all the practice time I want for myself in. The band is also not evenly split in any sane mannor like by ability or by instrument family. I have 1 percussion class then 3 mixed woodwind/brass classes. As a result of this there is never a ballance in the classes, so I love the idea of the cd or the computer to listen for possible holes in the music that I might miss by just hearing the students play. I basically only use the cd or computer about a quarter of the time I'm working on the music as a result ant I find myself greatful for the ability to ground myself with the "ideal" performance of the work. I can use that time to try to get my motions fluid.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-03-01 18:30
I am curious why you put the responsibility on the conductor? If the orchestra is late why blame the conductor? Is he/she indicating an intended delay?
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2007-03-02 17:15)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-03-01 21:23
I wrote this up about a year ago, seems like a reasonable time to post it here...
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My theory as to why there are so many lousy conductors in America.
Imagine that you decide to play the clarinet.
You are given two hour-long group lessons a week for the first year (year being two sets of fifteen weeks or three sets of ten). You are talked at a lot about how to play the clarinet. You learn lots of fingerings. You practice these fingerings. On your used Bundy that is in different condition every day, but generally missing about three pads entirely.
You can practice the fingerings at home all you like.
Every week or so, you get to borrow a reed for about three minutes and actually play the clarinet. You have to play a little bit of one piece, and you have to try not to stop.
Twice during this first year, you get to play on a Buffet E11 for four minutes, but it's leaking air heavily.
At this point, people will hire you to play clarinet professionally every day for one hour on a plastic Yamaha (or, if you're lucky, a Leblanc Noblet that could use adjustmnet) that you can only play during rehearsals. And nobody will ever, for the rest of your life, let you know what you're doing wrong or how to fix it. Hopefully you're good at self-teaching. Perhaps you'll attend some workshops where someone talks to you about how to play, and lets you borrow their Buffet R13 for ten minutes.
You'd like to take your clarinet to the shop, but they're backlogged, so you have to attempt repair yourself. You've never been to tech school, but you have a soldering iron and a hacksaw and are very enthusiastic.
If you decide to keep studying clarinet after your first year, (note that people will admit you into a master's program if you're one of the more prolific students that already plays at a sixth-grade level) you go to graduate school.
At graduate school, you get a private lesson once a week, during which your teacher shows you some really cool fingerings and talks to you about airstream. You're still not afforded a reed to actually make sounds, but they might give you tips on reed adjustment and what the good brands are.
At this point, you might even help out the people in their first year with their fingerings.
Finally, you get to play in a concert. You get to play about a half-dozen half-hour rehearsals on a beat-up R13 that, again, you can only play during rehearsal. You have all the solos, and if you screw up, the whole ensemble will freak out. No pressure.
At this point, you're probably borrowing someone's Jupiter for an hour a day as well, and playing a concert on it.
Should you want more time on your instrument, it costs from $1000 to $6000 per hour to rent, and you have to play it in the shop.
After about four concerts (you're only playing one piece on each), you graduate.
At this point, people will hire you for some nicer gigs, and let you play on the beat-up buffet R13 twice a week for an hour or two. You may very well play on that same beat-up R13 for the rest of your life. While the people sitting next to you in the ensemble may want to gouge their eyes out, it is extremely rare that they'll tell you to your face, and so you, with your three years of couple-hours-per-week experience and very few actual lessons with a horn you can make sound with, think you're on top of the world. It's also quite possible that the people sitting next to you have never heard the clarinet played at even a seventh-grade level, so they think you're fabulous.
If you're especially good at the clarinet and have managed to trade up multiple times, you may find yourself hacking slack-tempo Stamitz on a Buffet Prestige an hour a day, five days a week. People are sure to notice you now! And they do.
They invite you to play as a guest in a world-class ensemble like the Los Angeles Philharmonic, which you gladly do. You play Mary Had a Little Lamb at the top of your lungs while the rest of the ensemble plays Symphonie Fantastique. The orchestra isn't incredibly enthused, but you played all the notes correctly, so they look the other way. Loving the enthusiasm and never having heard a clarinet play it so loud, the audience goes wild.
You are invited back to perform with the orchestra frequently.
Of course, nobody would ever get anywhere playing the clarinet like that. But that's about the amount of experience most conductors get.
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-Alex
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-03-02 17:34
One of my favourite conductor comments was regarding a musical I was playing for. The conductor said "the orchestra is playing behind the beat and the show is too long". I realized he was correct as we could "knock off" .3 seconds of showtime by being on top of the beat. It all adds up. In 1000 shows you would save 5 minutes.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2007-03-03 16:53
In music school we learn that the beat is at the tip of the baton but in real life the beat is often found elsewhere. It can be in the little finger, index finger, base of the baton or almost anywhere. A listener watching the baton tip and hearing the orchestra might interpret the orchestra as playing behind the beat when , in reality, they are reacting to another part of the conductor's body. Part of adjusting to a conductor is determining where his beat is located. With a really bad conductor this might take a while but finally someone in the orchestra spots it and passes the information around.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-03-04 13:30
Further to Elmo's post.....Elmo, does the tempo enter into this? If there is a blistering tempo of 208 isn't it likely that the orchestra would be "on the stick" more? It is interesting that Elmo doesn't criticize the conductor for doing what he does. It is just accepted as a different way.
Freelance woodwind performer
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