 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-11 05:49
Okay guys, I have a story to tell and it needs to be shared.
I'm getting back into playing the clarinet since my high school days. As such, my embouchure and everything is certainly not where it used to be.
I bought a new Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet back in August 2022 off ebay from Tom Ridenour for a slight savings over their standard website pricing.
I got it and bought a bunch of other things at that time to recreate (to the best I could) my old set-up: mouthpiece, reeds, ligature, and all the other stuff I used to have.
My church does a Messiah performance every year and I hadn't played in quite some time. If you're not familiar with Messiah music, there are movements with as many as 7 sharps... so your keys need to work and work well.
About a week before the first time I played... I notice my Eb/Ab key isn't responding as it should. But was it me or the instrument? I haven't played in a long time. It's a new instrument that was (supposedly) play-tested before being sent to me.
It must be me. That's the healthy way to look at it.
I take it to my local instrument tech to take a look at it. Now, one thing about this tech is that their repair facilities are SEPARATE from their music store, so they did not have a clarinet that I could test to see if it was me or not. They did a bridge adjustment for me and I paid them $10-15.
I notice that I'm still having the same issues.
I sent it back to Ridenour Clarinet Products for a review under warranty.
They couldn't find any issues. They said they made some minor adjustments, but I can't find any evidence of any adjustments having been made.
Remember: They claim that every clarinet is thoroughly tested and inspected before sending it out. They've had my clarinet TWICE now.
I go to another tech earlier this year: Jim's Music Center in Tustin, CA. I went there for two reasons:
1) They have other clarinets for sale and I was able to play a Buffet Crampon R-13 they had on display just to be sure if it was me or the instrument.
2) If the tech on-site can't fix my instrument, legendary tech Bruce Belo probably could. (He did wonderful work on my R-13 30 years ago.)
I play-tested the R-13 at Jim's and determined that it is NOT me, but the instrument.
Jim's Music did another adjustment and charged me about $70 to do it.
Yet, I'm still having the issue.
I was also noticing an issue with my left hand F/C key. When I'd assemble the clarinet, the key would be stuck (you press the key and it wouldn't release easily) until you work it out a bit. Then it would be fine. That was a consistent issue.
Feeling quite dissatisfied with my clarinet... and also feeling that there'd be little to no service that could be trusted to be detected and done by Ridenour (they couldn't find the issue before, so the warranty feels worthless now), I decided to take matters into my own hands.
I have some very fine grit sandpaper (800 or 1200 - whatever). I did a very light sand (or polish/buff) of the posts where they connect to the key and the key rod for that key (and a couple others) and that hasn't been an issue again! (Maybe *I'm* the better tech?)
To solve the original key issues, I figured it's time to just replace the pads and start from there. At least one of the original leather pads seemed too soft and therefore may not form the seal that I thought it should have... but after trying to look at it and the various pad options out there, I'd rather take it to a tech and have them do the work.
I go back to the original local tech that did the bridge adjustment and request they review the instrument and just replace those 4 pads. The tech wasn't there that day and due to marching band season, they've been "on location" at various schools with their repair truck. (A good business model.) The tech called me last Friday and we spoke about the issues I'm having, that it isn't me, and that I'd like to replace those 4 pads.
Then he mentioned the spring and offered to check it and replace it as well.
He's done that and I'll be picking up my instrument tomorrow at a repair cost of just under $120. He's replaced my pads with new Roo pads, so I'm sure they'll have a quality seal.
So, this is my CRITICAL review. I did a lot of online scouring of reviews and videos that are quite complimentary of Ridenour clarinets (including this forum here). I saw all the positive videos and testimonials on their site and YouTube. I felt that I was making a smart and informed purchase to get back into clarinet playing.
I bought it from them directly (via eBay) and I sent it back to them for adjustments. TWICE they didn't find or solve the real problem. (Granted, neither did my first two other techs, but I expected more from Ridenour reputation and warranty.)
However, this experience... was quite a poor experience as a customer who is trying to get back into playing.
Now, you might say "David, why not express your displeasure directly with them? Why come on here and vent?"
Here's why:
1) They claim to check every instrument before it leaves their facility when they sell it. My experience with my instrument would suggest that's a false statement.
2) They have a 1-year parts & labor warranty and a 5-year warranty against defects. But I SENT IT BACK TO THEM for review & adjustment... and they couldn't find the issue! What good is a warranty if they can't find the problem too?
3) I once defended Ridenour products against another critical review in David Blumberg's Clarinetists Facebook group who called the instruments 'junk'. However, HE (the reviewer) didn't bother to contact Ridenour for a satisfactory resolution. I did back when I sent the instrument to them and I still had the problem.
Tom and Ted:
A customer complaint is the single greatest feedback you can get. You need better quality controls and better instrument inspection processes.
The fact that I'm this upset about an instrument that I now own... should be disconcerting. Despite the superiority of hard rubber for clarinet-making materials, I never felt this way about my student Yamaha YCL-20, my Buffet Crampon R-13, or my Buffet Festival clarinets I had many years ago.
And now, when I assemble and play this clarinet going forward, am I going to have nice feelings about the company I bought it from and the experience I've had with it? Do I feel that the quality of this instrument has set me up for success when I go to play it?
If I bought it at a STEEP discount and USED from a 3rd party, I'd completely understand. I bought my R-13 30 years ago for $400 and paid quite a bit to restore it to proper playing condition.
But I didn't.
I bought it NEW - DIRECTLY FROM YOU - so I expected to receive it in perfect playing condition, not needing ANY repair or adjustments. And if it wasn't, that you'd be able to find the problems and fix it when I sent it to you the first time.
Frankly, in my business (insurance and financial services) when it gets to this level of discontent, it's considered a client betrayal because I cannot think of a single thing you could possibly do to make it 'right'.
Even if there was an offer to refund my repair costs... that does not restore a feeling of confidence in the company, service, and products.
Remember, I already sent it to you before.
I sincerely hope that after I pick it up tomorrow, that I'll have a new joy in playing my instrument and that it would be worth all the trouble I've gone through.
All of this... for the lack of detecting a weak spring and a sticky key.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-11 06:19
This was Tom's original response when I sent the instrument back in April, 2023. You'll notice no discussion of springs.
David,
Thanks so much for getting back to me.
I checked the sealing of the pads, and the clarinet seals very well. Also i checked the coupling of the bell B natural, and it was fine. There was a very small amount of play in the crow's foot on the right hand F#/c# lever--which I corrected. IMO there wasn't enough to create any sort of noticeable problem.
My guess is your problems came from finger leakage. In particular the left hand ring finger. That's very common in difficult passages that require the reaching of the left hand little finger. The real problem is a design flaw in the
clarinet with the 3rd finger hole of the left hand.
Note all the tone holes form a flat surface except that 3rd finger hole.
The rounded tone hole falls away from the ring finger, especially when the pinky has to reach to operate the F#/c# left hand lever. This is always a problem for me, because I have very small hands and a very short pinky finger. But being aware of it goes a long way to solving the problem.
But the design flaw is not unique to the Aurea, but all clarinets are made that way. I've often thought of producing a clarinet that makes this tone hole flat like all the rest. Maybe I will.
Since I can't find any issue with pad sealing that's my best guess. Tension in the fingers can also create the leakage, and when that tone hole leaks everything in the right hand shuts down and stops responding---even if the leak is very slight.
Correction is usually pretty easy by just being aware of it, and practice in front of a mirror helps so you can get a good picture of the fingers and how their movement affects one another.
I'll go over your clarinet again and doulble check for similar such issues, but everything worked well for me, and I use a very light finger technique with no slamming or squeezing of the keys.
Thanks again for responding.
tom
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-11 06:36
I have no horse in this race. I own a Ridenour "A" clarinet and haven't had issues with it. I have no affiliation with Ridenour Clarinet Products (RCP).
I am sorry you are facing issues. And while I do expect RCP to know their instruments better than the two local techs you brought the instrument to, I am also taken back by these comments you made above:
"(Granted, neither did my first two other techs [found or solved the real problem] but I expected more from Ridenour reputation and warranty.)"
I'm curious: while I understand the problem you are having failed to manifest on another tested instrument (the R13 at Jim's) did anyone else play test your Ridenour instrument and experience your problems (edit: other than Tom Ridenour?)
Walk me through your play history since its 2022 purchase. How many times did you play it since purchase, and when was the most recent Messiah performance? I ask these questions not because I disagree with you that RCPs commitment to play test each new instrument before it leaves the shop should be anything but honored, but rather, is it possible that the instrument played fine when it left RCP initially, but developed this problem over time?
In fairness to you I would not consider its infrequent use as justification for it not playing. If anything we'd expect such hard rubber instruments less susceptible to the dimensional changes that could throw keys out of alignment like your left F/C key. Did you try to oil the key before subjecting it to physical sanding?
As it regards the 4 pads being replaced, was the instrument not sealing?
I would have wanted also to hear from you after this most recent trip to the local and initial repairman to see if your problem has been resolved.
I don't seek to defend RCP or critique you so much as to find an unbiased assessment of the situation that is facts and evidence based and that favors or disfavors no party here.
Edit: my response was before I say the OP's second post except where edits are noted.
Post Edited (2024-11-11 06:38)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-11-11 06:42
"...and it needs to be shared."
Now that I've read your story in full (and Tom's response)...I'm not certain I agree with your premise.
I do feel badly that you've had a bad experience...but many new clarinets need "repaired" now-a-days. This seems to be a common complaint even against Buffet clarinets (see the forum posts).
The way we do things as players can definitely impact the results. (This is one reason I don't believe giving a beginner a high-end pro instrument is necessarily a good thing - as beginning students are more prone to press on the keys at odd angles, use too much force, leave the instrument where it might be knocked over by a "friend" - etc. etc.)
In a like-minded thought: I do wonder if you had continued playing all these years - would your experience with this particular clarinet have been the same?
The angle and force that we exert on keys can cause problems for "me" but not "you."
I don't blame you for having a dim view of the situation based on your experience and current viewpoint. However, I also don't know that I see anything wrong in the response provided by the company.
Welcome to Clarinet ownership. Things move and get out of alignment/adjustment. Two years?! "....back in August 2022..." I'm having a difficult time getting too worked up over this.
Glad you have it adjusted in a way that works for you now.
Best of luck going forward,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-11 06:59
Thanks for your thoughts and response.
I am not a regular player. I barely touched the instrument at all this year. However Messiah is coming up in a few weeks, so I took it out a few weeks ago and noticed the same issues as ever before.
If anyone else play-tested my instrument, they didn't do it in front of me.
As far as the assertion that most instruments need repair even when new, there's a difference between acoustical adjustments and refinements vs making sure the keys work properly. Granted, I think it's a hard thing to find (spring tension), but it needed to be found and a test for quality. A clarinet isn't just for long-tones.
My play history since I purchased the instrument... well, very spotty at best. Which should mean no changes of the instrument unless I'm playing it. I'm in Southern California, so even if I had a wood instrument, I wouldn't expect any changes on its own.
Yes, I oiled the keys before doing actual sanding using Roche-Thomas key oil. Heck, I even oiled the bore (which it doesn't need but made it shiny) with Roche-Thomas bore oil.
As far as the 4 pads - I can't tell you if the pads weren't sealing or not. I did do the 'suck' test and it seems to pass. I just got to the point, like with cars, to just throw parts at it and see if it fixes the problem. If one pad was to blame, might as well replace all 4. (It makes sense in my head for that - kind of like tires.)
If I had been a regular player all these years, I would've not had the same doubts of my own ability and immediately blamed the instrument. I thought it was me for some reason. I didn't get the clarity until I played another clarinet and it just worked. (Granted, my embouchure isn't nearly the same, but at least the keys and sounds worked as they should.)
I'm in my mid-40's. I don't play very often. I have (something of) a life and a career.
You don't have to get worked-up over it. I'm the one worked up. It seems most people's experiences are far better than what I experienced. That's good for everyone else.
If there's any part of the blame for me to take on, it's that I haven't played in a long time and I bought a clarinet from the internet. However, I bought it with Ridenour's expertise, assurance, and other reviews that no other adjustments would be necessary.
Which meant that if I was current with my skills, I'd be able to determine the issues it had right away and just return the instrument for immediate adjustment or a refund.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2024-11-11 08:24
Some food for thought…
There is not a single manufacturer I’ve tried who’s new instruments are set up to my preference/standard out of the box. This includes VERY expensive flagship models.
With Ridenour sending out the instruments by mail initially, and between their servicing, the transit and environmental changes could be having a big effect on adjustment. Especially play/binding between posts. I’ve witnessed this in instruments travelling, even when in the cabin of an airplane so there’s no sudden changes it experiences. The mail is much less kind.
Tech’s have different levels of expertise, and especially someone who mainly works on school student instruments may not have their eyes “in shape” enough to spot subtle problems. Of course there are many fantastic band techs so I don’t mean to assume, but I’ve also seen some pretty shoddy tolerances accepted as “fine” before. Obviously Tom is someone who should fall under a high caliber of technician. I’m inclined to give the benefit of doubt that the instrument perhaps was working ok in the environment of his workshop, but perhaps not elsewhere.
Yamaha student clarinets come with a shocking amount of slop/end play in their end pivot keys, but if you tighten them too “well” when the instrument is played and warm the dimensions change and the keys start binding. Just an anecdote I’ve seen people get caught by before.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-11-11 08:34
Just a couple of thoughts. For adjustments of spring tension and other such HIGHLY PERSONAL settings, one must find how to do this themselves. There is no one, certified set of Bb Clarinet Spring Tensions. It is up to you to find what works and make those adjustments on your own (a good micro screwdriver and pair of needle nose pliers are all ya need).
As for the stability of the dimensions of a wooden horn vs rubber (or plastic), the synthetic horns actually expand and contract to a rather large degree under the effects of temperature (African Blackwood ironically remains inert). Just an side story. Many Army bands used plastic horns (now they buy Greenlines) for cold weather gigs. To prepare for the cold weather playing, I'd put the joints in the frige for awhile and filed the length of the long tubes down until they moved freely when cold.......the plastic contracts and the entire length of the horn shortens up enough to wreak havoc on key movement.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-11 09:45
Thank you both for your comments.
In my mind, I think of personal settings to mean extra-minute changes and refinements.
The issues with my clarinet were of (in my mind and rusty technical ability) basic functionality standard to get it to play those notes, not a refinement of personal preferences.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-11-11 14:15
My advice would be to find a good, professional player and ask them to assess the instrument. The Ridenour response re 3rd finger coverage is true for both hands.
Nevertheless an experienced player will be able to determine where the truth lies.
I must stress that I have no knowledge of Ridenour instruments - they may be excellent or otherwise.
All good players know what several have described here - new instruments can arrive with issues arising from transportation. You really do need a very good technician to set it up and the more experienced you are as a player the more personalised this could be.
Noting the task of playing Messiah on clarinet - unusual to play with clarinets unless you're doing the Mozart arrangement! The Prout/Mozart is Bb clarinet but those movements with 5-7 sharps would be far better played on the A clarinet if you can source one.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-11-11 16:38
I've always completely changed EVERY spring tension on EVERY instrument I've ever purchased and usually after every overhaul (if I haven't been clear to the tech NOT to touch my spring tensions). I also usually bend the sliver keys so that they are either slightly higher up, or lower down on the body (depending on where they sit new).
EVERY TIME
Of course, don't rule out sitting down with a tech and working out where you want things before you leave the shop. There was a Gerold Klarinettte video of a customer taking delivery of a clarinet where those lower key spring tensions are being adjusted by Gerold himself until the customer gets the "feel" that he is looking for.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-11 16:56
Hi again David:
Your ability to not reproduce these problems on the R13 tells an important, albeit part of a story for me. It says that the problem is not 100% you. You can get results on one instrument (the R13) you can't get on the RCP clarinet.
It may also turn out that the problem is 100% not you (Please note the subtle difference in wording conveying two different things.)
I think two important things need to happen. One is that the instrument be play tested by someone with decent proficiency (that, incidentally is NOT meant as a dig against you--it speaks nothing to your proficiency--it simply seeks to see if your issues can be duplicated by competent players), ideally someone with repair acumen if not skills, and second...
was the problem resolved for you in its most recent round of repairs?
Respectfully David, you may very well have an issue. I am not trying to minimize the accuracy of your claims. But IMHO both points I mention should have been confirmed before you came to assign (at least as much) blame to RCP as you initially did.
Again, in hindsight your observations about RCP may (or may not) prove 100% justified. But the inability for others to experience your issues and/or the inability for this most recent round of repairs to resolve your issue will both be clues as to where to properly assign blame IMHO.
An anecdote that may entire not apply to you:
As a younger player I was convinced my clarinet had issues as voicing a full fingered C#/Db presented issues for me. Others could not reproduce the issue and I realized how this note is more sensitive to embouchure grip and that the issue was mostly me. Yes: the issue manifested less for me on other horns, but in was in large part not reproducible on my horn when others played it.
I hear cries of "why won't anyone believe me?." In case that comes to mind, rest assured, I take no issue with or seek to find reasons to disbelieve you, or take RCP's side (or not take RCP's side) just independently confirm you so blame (and the responsibility of resolution) can be fairly assigned. 
Post Edited (2024-11-11 17:03)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-11 18:44
Generally speaking, if you find a new instrument plays properly without first having paid a bill relating specifically and coherently to the task of regulating it, then consider yourself either lucky...or the owner of a Yamaha. The inclusion of regulation by most distributors tends to be a pretty minimalistic lip service relating to a marketing ploy. It's not something to have expectations about unless you've payed good money for it. If the regulation is included in the price then you don't actually know what you've been charged for it,or whether it should be worth a damn.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-11-11 19:24
I would certainly get someone else to try the instrument and see if they have the same result. It is certainly possible that the problem is in your playing. The fact that you did not experience the same when trying and R13 MAY mean it is the instrument, but at the same time, the key and tone hole placement and design may be slightly different which cures the issue.
I have had situations with students where they are having an issue which I cannot reproduce when I play it. I often determine that finger size, pressure, etc is different when I play it. As an experienced player I also intuitively compensate a little to make things works where they don't have the sensitivity to do so.
Good luck and I hope you solve the issues
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-11 22:51
I find the best approach to solving these mysterious and bloody annoying sorts of problems, is by deferring to the wisdom of Sherlock Holmes.
" When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
However long winded, this systematic approach invariably leads you to the source of the problem.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-12 00:58
Thank you all for your comments and feedback. I have now had a good night's sleep and I have picked up my instrument from the tech.
I play-tested it while I was there and they solved the problem. They replaced the four pads on the lower joint and tighted the Ab spring.
The tech did notice that the original pad installation was shoddy. He said they used some folded paper and not enough glue. He was not impressed.
My next step may be to get a complete repad of the instrument.
I did notice as I playtested it that I may have a bit of lazy fingering as I keep bumping into the B/F# trill key. At least I can identify that being 'me' and I may get that key shaved or otherwise adjusted.
(See? I can take the blame where it should be rightfully placed.)
I still feel that my original expectations weren't met and should've been. No one else in all of my online research seemed to indicate that they needed more work done on their instrument when they got it, including the 'blind' play test that Tom did on his own channel:
Testing the Consistency of the Lyrique Libertas II Bb clarinet after the first stage of Processing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPpcMiqW-XI
Josh Johnson: Ridenour Libertas Update: 2 Years Later
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXstW4Gp8uE
The only indication I had (as an admitted advanced amateur) that I should have to review the instrument with a tech was Michael Lowenstern testing the Ridenour Low C Bass Clarinet as he discovered it had a few leaks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uTrbNPagqk
Personalization... I'd expect to pay more to adjust the clarinet to my hands. But this thing just wasn't playable for what I needed and what I expected based on YouTube reviews and other feedback I've seen.
My next steps may be a complete repad and an adjustment in that lower joint trill key.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-11-12 01:45
Glad you have it working the way you want. Welcome back to the clarinet.
To help you find a few posts indicating new clarinet quality control is lacking:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=513376&t=513376
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=513717&t=513717
...among many others.
This isn't to say that we should put up with poor quality control.
No company I know would take the time to look at the clarinet, take the time to explain what they did and that they didn't find any issues...just so that they could send a broken instrument back to you. That doesn't make sense.
It seems much more likely, that the company made a sincere attempt to address your issue, and that the attempt didn't satisfy your expectations.
Happens with purchases all the time.
It sounds like you have a nice clarinet playing the way you want it too. Sorry it took you more time and money than you hoped - but glad you've reached a good solution.
I am still of the opinion this might have been better discussed in private with the vendor. I think the results might have resulted in a better solution for all around.
At any rate - just my opinion.
I'm sincere in my "welcome back to clarinet!" Hope you have loads of fun!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-12 04:12
Hi Fuzzy,
I appreciate your sentiment. It's not like I didn't try before... but this thread did help me with an unintended effect: a reset of expectations of new instruments... or rather any instrument.
Also, just in case anyone else believed that they might get a 'perfect' instrument from Ridenour or anyone else, this thread may be a helpful read.
Thank you all.
EDIT: I made a small adjustment to my thumbrest and I think that'll take care of that trill key issue for me.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
Post Edited (2024-11-12 05:03)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-12 12:51
I'm glad you finally got that sorted out David, I'm sure we all empathize with just how exasperating these problems can be.
To return with a bit on an amendment to what I was trying to say earlier, about what to expect from sales included regulation, I was by no means suggesting the acceptance that sellers should not hold to their promises, nor that regulation work conducted inadequately is something to consider acceptable. The problem is that the time and dedication that's generally required to do the job properly is getting the squeeze between the seller's needs to offer attractive prices on the instrument and their mindfulness of profit margins. It's just not a good place for a job well done to be.....which is why so often it simply isn't there.
Still.... it's great that you're going back to playing and above all ... enjoy!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-12 16:36
And as for Tom Ridenour, (who I'm inclined to respect and admire), his business is rather uniquely dependent on his services in making Chinese-made instruments into something anyone would want, which means that he must take good care of that side of things for his customers and they in turn must take care in the matter of any airing of acusaciones against him. It's not like he's Buffet who can surf along on a gold plated shamelessness regarding how poorly their instruments play out of the box....and then go to the bank laughing and stopping off for croissants on the way.
I'm NOT inferring anything here, or taking ANY sides, just offering my thoughts in the spirit of what I see as representing the best for all.
And that's all!...
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul H
Date: 2024-11-15 07:11
I'm an intermediate player with little experience on different clarinets but maybe have a couple relevant comments as I do have a Ridenour Lyrique in addition to a Buffet E12.
First, I don't understand why the first techs didn't look at the spring in the first case. My year-old Lyrique suddenly had a seemingly similar problem with a different key and after my own examination it seemed to be the spring and my tech confirmed that, replaced it and all was good.
Aside from that, the Lyrique plays pretty well. But I likewise have troubles sometimes with the left F/C key and it's clearly related to the left hand third hole, pring finger leakage as Ridenour explains. BUT I think I have have less problems with the same on the E12. (The two are very different in weight, so maybe that's a part of it.)
And finally -- seemingly related to another adjustment Ridenour made -- after a year of playing, the mechanism for the left hand E/B key became loose and the key lever was popping out for the lever it links to. Yet the screw to tighten it didn't seem to have come out, it was flush. I screwed it in farther, seemingly very deep, and all was well. The tech said it appeared the screw may have been too short to begin with.
Anyway, it plays well, sounds good, for the money.
Paul H
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-15 11:23
< Anyway, it plays well, sounds good, for the money.>
I think that that statement combined with the kind of little build defects you described, rather sums up Chinese made instruments very well in general. Between all the aspiring musicians in my household, we have Made-in-China clarinets, cellos, trumpets and guitars and I'm actually rather grateful for the level of quality they have come to offer for the price. Before they moved into the student level instrument market, the options were more expensive and often real junk from East German or whatever. The Chinese offer is truly a blessing for music students and their parents pocketbooks too. Also, their aspirations to quality are definitely going up. All in all I really think they have brought a great deal to the situation.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-15 12:38
....And in the same vein, only this time in regards to the person of Tom Ridenour, himself, as I understand it, his principal objectives have ever been to provide young students with properly performing yet affordable instruments. The fact than now some professionals have come to favor some of them, is something I think rather highlights the extent of his talents and achievements.....and that's not to mention the matter of his noble objectives.
Even if he fails to send out every instrument perfectly adjusted, he still has my respect.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-11-15 20:47
Julian ibiza wrote:
>
> cellos, trumpets and guitars and I'm actually rather grateful
> for the level of quality they have come to offer for the price.
Hear, Hear! Not so many years ago we couldn't say that Chinese-made instruments were any good at all, now we can say that the number of problems you might encounter are the same you have with any low-end instrument. Or, as I read here, the number of problems with high-end instruments (of course we don't talk about instruments that don't have problems very often because that's not so interesting, so the discussion is very skewed).
I remember maybe 60-70 years back about the Japanese "junk" that was flooding the market, especially low-end items, when Japan was the low-cost giant in the room. "Made in Japan" was an epithet referencing bad quality, not a compliment. My, my, how far we've come.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-11-15 23:40
Mark- I was thinking the same. I recall years ago many players turned their noses up at Yamaha instruments. Now there are countless players using them. You also hear lots of raves about Yanagisawa saxes. Some of the Instruments from Japan are among the best out there.
I know a guy who has imported instruments under his own house brand and has spent a good amount of time in the factories in China and worked to design instruments to his spec. He told me that they are eager to make good instruments and were able to do the tweaks he needed. He also said that IF you want to pay for junk they will make that for you as well! LOL
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-16 01:02
I'm not Asian. I have nobody in this fight. I will say this. The American economy depends upon the low price offerings produced abroad and then (I don't know why) conflates such inexpensive item's lack of quality with an entire country's manufacturing sector.
If a toaster oven were built in the US (and this is just fact, not bashing) laws that protect workers etc. would force that item's price to be 3X that of one of no less quality produced abroad.
Those willing to shell out the funds will get the best of products from China, Japan, many other countries and those produced in the States. Those looking for things largely based on price are far more likely to get what they paid for (less than stellar product) from any of these same mentioned countries.
Specific to Ridenour Clarinet Products (RCP) Tom has his horns produced in China to keep prices down and I believe him when he says that each is tested and if necessary fixed before it goes out the door to customers.
I am sorry for the OP's situation. I am not so quick here to blame RCP or the OP.
I would have liked an independent competent clarinetist to have played the instrument when the OP first detected problems and offered their assessment. It could have gone a long way, IMHO, to properly assigning blame: wherever in fact, unknown to me, it resides: said in no way disrespectfully to Messrs.. Kinder or Ridenour.
Post Edited (2024-11-16 01:02)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-16 10:40
I'd just like to add that I too sympathize with the OP on this one. I recently had a similarly exasperating experience and my naturally saintly nature did take a bit of a turn towards psychopath.
I think that SecondTry's observation regarding the relationship between Asian manufactured goods and our existing spending power is a very significant one and something to be appreciated, especially as they are now offering quality to those prepared to pay fairly for it.
If you buy a Chinese factory manufactured cello, it will be better quality for the price than anything made it the West. It will likely be called something like 'Carlo Giordano'..... but if you want a really high end Luthier-made one, then they can do that too... it will be called something like a 'Lee Wong'.
" Oh my god!.... she's playing a genuine Lee Wong!... and not one of those fakes coming out of Europe!" 😂
I read somewhere that a number of US Luthiers buy Chinese made cellos 'in the white' ( unvarnished), remove the soundboards to grade them more finely and then finish them and sell them as their own product. A similar arrangement to Ridenour really and probably a very good deal for the customer prejudices aside.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2024-11-18 18:04
Not clarinets, but similar :
In 2008 when I decided to get back into playing music, I bought a chinese-made acoustic jazz guitar. Back then there was a price abysse between that and the very few other examples made in France where the model originally comes from and I coudn't justify the investement at that point. Many hours of playing, researching and eventualy buying later, I got to know a lot about those instruments.
For a lark on vacation and with the help of my teacher, we took that original purchase and gave it a spa treatment, removing all that horrible thick orange varnish deadening the sound. Once cleaned, we discovered the the wood was of a very good quality, the soundboard better than many I'd seen on more expensive instruments made in France and the rest of the body in a high quality tropical hardwood. Had we had more time and motivation (and all the tools) we could have completely dismantled it and worked on the soundboard and side bracing to really boost the projection, the potential was there. The real problem was in the fine tuning of the machining of the various wood elements and the way they finally got glued together - where the "magic" happens.
I recently noticed that the same brand is still sold in music stores here and that the varnish has changed but there is still a way to go on getting assembly right. It's a niche market so I don't know how motivated they'll be to worry about that. It's still a good starting point price-wise. Also, I've never heard of any "in the white" offers here, too complex and not enough demand volume for a music store and no fun in that for a true luthier !
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2024-11-20 09:33
Sorry, I’ve been away from this Forum for some time. This thread piqued my interest.
I’ve been playing clarinet since 1961. Yes, I’m old. I am a clarinetist and saxophonist doubler since 1970. I play in many various concert bands, wind ensembles, chamber orchestras, orchestras, jazz combos, big bands, and many years in orchestra pits playing shows. I’ve played every major and many minor brands of clarinet over these years. It was in the pits that I found Ridenour clarinets. One pit would be frigidly cold, the next a sweat-box of hell. While I claim being blessed, I’ve never had a clarinet crack on me in my life. But I didn’t want to start, either. I started with his C clarinet first, to cover flute and oboe cues. I Love his C, very much! I got in contact with Ted, and ordered his first generation Libertas B-flat and their Lyrique A clarinets. They were lovely sounding. I’ve since traded those back to the Ridenour for updated models. In my collection of Ridenour Clarinets is the Lyrique C, two Aurea B-flat clarinets, an Aurea A clarinet, two Lyrique (modified bore by Tom Ridenour) B-flat clarinets, and the 925C low C Bass with silverplate keys.
I do trust Tom Ridenour, I believe him to be the top clarinet acoustician in the field today. I know these clarinets “as designed” are as close as we’ve come to a fabulous clarinet. I trust where Tom has control, things are manufactured correctly. He fine tunes and undercuts at his shop, and sends them out. Now, certain things may be beyond total control, but I do believe the body tube is an acoustically sound item. I find it best to repad and totally recork the clarinets as soon as possible, to help eliminate the Chinese quality questions. Almost every original joint cork can be twisted off easily. Can’t really blame Tom, it’s the Chinese cork and glue. So, yeah - there’s some investment there, but I gig a lot, and can’t rely on Chinese pad glue and Chinese pad construction. Even after all this, the savings over otherwise inferior clarinets is substantial. The Bass needed about three hours bench work, mostly due to UPS manhandling, but that is one spectacular Bass!
So that’s my Ridenour story. I have other much more expensive clarinets, but I really dig these Ridenours.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-21 11:11
I appreciate your comments Ken! The fact that you ALSO had to do a repad &/or re-cork on your instruments makes me feel better (or at least part of the club).
I hadn't seen anyone talk about doing any adjustments on pads and keys when getting their Ridenour clarinet, so I guess I had an improper expectation in mind.
I agree with you that the acoustics are very VERY good! Very pleased with the tone quality I get. I was just frustrated with spring tension and decided to just start with some pad replacements and these guys got it right for me.
I am certainly much calmer, but I haven't played my AureA Bb much since I picked it up a couple of weeks ago.
Back with my old R-13, I expected worn pads and some key work to get done just because it was used. I didn't think a NEW instrument would need it, especially one that is checked by Tom and/or Ted prior to sending it out the first time, and sending it back for their review again.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-21 11:40
Ken's take on the Ridenour instruments sounds pretty much identical to that of Leslie Craven in the UK, together with his reasons for gravitating towards them professionally.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2024-11-21 14:10
I bought the Ridenour C through Leslie Craven in the UK. Leslie said he liked the Valentio pads on the top joint. Though there were standard 'fishskin' on the bottom joint. Leslie was also quite open and said a pro player would just immediately send the instrument off for re-padding, with something like 'Superpads'.
It seems fair enough to me that an instrument at that price isn't going to have the finest pads, but ones that are good enough for a start and to last a reasonable time. I didn't re-pad but it's all holding fine after several years. I've used that C clarinet whenever they've been scored in orchestra, which has been a few times a season, plus practice time. I treat the C as a separate instrument, which needs it's own time.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-21 19:26
>
> Back with my old R-13, I expected worn pads and some key work
> to get done just because it was used. I didn't think a NEW
> instrument would need it, especially one that is checked by Tom
> and/or Ted prior to sending it out the first time, and sending
> it back for their review again.
>
I do agree with you David that a new Ridenour Clarinet (and for that matter a Yamaha professional series one as well) should be expected to play well right out of the box, as did mine.
But it's been my experience that many new instruments, (cough: Buffet) even ones with great potential, are almost synonymous with the cane reeds they play on, in that their adjustment (which sometimes is a nice word for repair more than alignment) is part in parcel with that which is necessary after purchased new, but before performance.
..and I'm not even talking about those instruments in the store that are duds.
In the fictional "dictionary that is clarinet" there exists a word: Brannenized.
It speaks to how a fair number of new Buffet purchasers would send their instruments to Brannen Woodwinds back in the day to have them first brought to professional standards.
If you think it should not be this way I completely agree.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-21 21:41
I wish I could hit 'like' on everyone's comments as I do on... well, everywhere else. lol.
I hope I can articulate the difference of expectation I had.
I'd expect a manufacturer (Buffet, Yamaha, etc.) to require a modest adjustment upon delivery. That's one reason why it's best to buy from a music store with their own on-site repair facilities to make adjustments when the instrument is received and/or right after purchase.
My expectation was heightened because Tom and/or Ted would adjust the instrument prior to shipping it out the first time. There's a personal reputation there and as long as it was in a good case, I expected a more refined mechanism adjustment on delivery - at least the first time, and especially the 2nd time.
Tom's expertise (no disputing that) was behind each instrument and I expected 'perfection' upon delivery, and especially after sending it for another adjustment.
Especially with all the testimonials and reviews where no one said they did any adjustments, my expectations were heightened, perhaps higher than they should've been, but they were.
That's where my expectation was... and was disappointed.
Thanks to the comments here, I'm glad my experience isn't uncommon regardless of manufacturer.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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