 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2021-06-26 18:28
I found the following video from Titus Underwood, principal oboist of the Nashville Symphony, difficult to watch, imagining what he was going through in his experience as the first black principal oboist in a major symphony:
https://youtu.be/vxhwoJqlUeA
He speaks about his beginning in the Nashville Symphony around the 1:00 mark. I’m glad that symphony management took it upon themselves to take care of this situation.
Post Edited (2021-06-26 22:37)
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2021-06-26 22:52
Yes.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-06-26 23:11
I agree that it's difficult to watch. I'm sorry he had to go through that.
Are you posting this, though, to bolster your assertion in the other thread that Zimmermann was fired from this orchestra due to his racist behavior? Because I don't see evidence of that here. (I mean, it *may* have been Zimmermann or it may have been another symphony member. We are not told in this interview.)
Whoever it was, that member's behavior was just so cringe-y. So wrong. Ugh.
Mods: please delete if I've crossed a line.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-06-27 03:54
In the orchestra for 12 years before being dismissed? That sounds coincidentally like the same amount of time a certain clarinet player was there!
"Fortunately for you this isn't my board."
-I'd say: Fortunately for all of us...
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 04:30
Mr. Underwood's story, if true and the whole truth--and I have utterly no reason to suspect it anything but absolutely factual--is a disgusting example of racism that Mr. Underwood, in fact nobody, should have to go through.
Full stop.
That said, J.J. the poetic irony of you making us aware of this story mere days after accusing James Zimmermann of racial insensitivity (and BTW, what Mr. Underwood describes, IMHO is a heck of a lot more than mere "racial insensitivity" your prior words J.J.) is so thick, it could be cut with a knife.
Do us all a favor. Put a thread out that says the following:
"I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to feel that this story, in any way shape or form, has anything to do with James Zimmermann," or,
provide concrete proof, as requested by not only me, but fairness and the moderator that it does or,
please leave this bboard.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2021-06-27 04:48
It’s true J.J. doesn’t know any of this for certain. But certain individuals being discussed here have been very revealing of themselves, at least on how they think (not necessarily on what they have done), through their postings on social media. Particularly Twitter. So basically, if it were true I would not be surprised.
Another clarinetist is experiencing quite a falling out through their behavior. The victims in this case having audio proof. And again, this individual has definitely raised some eyebrows in the past with their comments on social media.
All in all, I’m glad the racists and creeps are losing their jobs over it. Whoever they are.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 04:51
I have some opinions of my own I'd like to offer here.
* Anyone who thinks the playing field for becoming the caliber of player suited to work for a professional orchestra is the same for all, irrespective of race, lives in a fantasy world. FWIW, I'm white, I came from privilege, and nothing changes the facts of the prior sentence.
* Despite wonderful attempts to have us come closer to a level opportunity playing field for all, in all aspects of life, but I discuss orchestral performance here, there are structural and inherent malfunctions in our world that make achieving virtuosity: the most uphill battle for anyone, an "uphill battle in ice" for those whose parents lack the financial ability to pay for the house in the school district, and hire the private music teacher, and buy the instrument , etc-- and you can bet that plight, while yes, part of many Caucasian's experiences, is far more prevalent with minorities, and shouldn't be.
* Musicians like Anthony McGill would deserve the principal chair of the NY Philharmonic irrespective of them being white, black, green, or spotted like an owl.
But all this said, for orchestras to play the full repertoire, especially when it comes to small section instruments, like clarinet, flute and oboe players, etc., auditions necessitate that the best player be picked. IMHO that is a level of unfairness based on opportunity that is less worse than one where players are in any way given concessions for play based upon, in part, any attributes other than sheer play.
For the record, I have no idea how well Mr. Underwood plays. (I'll bet he can play circles on oboe around my clarinet playing.) In no way shape or form do I which to make ANY inferences that Mr. Underwood achieved his status anything but fairly.
I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to feel that this story, in any way shape or form, has anything to do with James Zimmermann.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 05:04
One more thought. This is purely hypothetical. I beg you to understand that. It has nothing to do with Zimmermann, Underwood, McGill, ANYONE.
I don't know the first thing about the Tennessee Symphony.
If I, as a player in a professional orchestra, saw somebody in that orchestra win a job for any reason other than their ability as a musician I would be furious.
I believe, like Mr. Underwood, that play is play and race is race.
No, I would not harass them. I wouldn't body shame a physically attractive player who got their job in part based on a romantic interlude with an audition decision maker, I wouldn't tease them if they were white and from privilege and say how "daddy got them this job," and I wouldn't bring up their race at all if a minority.
It would kill me, but I'd bite my tongue, despite knowing how hard I had to work to earn my position.
Post Edited (2021-06-27 06:51)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 05:20
Liquorice wrote:
> In the orchestra for 12 years before being dismissed? That
> sounds coincidentally like the same amount of time a certain
> clarinet player was there!
>
> "Fortunately for you this isn't my board."
> -I'd say: Fortunately for all of us...
Ladies and Gentlemen of the board, do you want to know how insurrections start?
Someone makes a claim. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but they back it with no evidence and its not removed from social media; free speech and all.
Next, someone also supplying no proof points out that we all seem to get about the hidden reference.
Wait---is a movement forming? "Gee, I'm human, I want to 'belong' somewhere, forget independent thinking, proof, corroborating evidence, maybe I'll join this group too."
I'll say it again, fortunately for you this isn't my board. But for what it's worth, one of its rules is "Don't accuse people of crimes; that's what courts are for."
Don't you think that this rule should apply to the same civil actions that civil courts are for?
Funny, neither the orchestra nor Mr. Underwood named anybody. Why? Are they afraid of a defamation suit if the proof against a racist is so well documented? (This comment is not to question Mr. Underwood's authenticity, just Mr. Zimmermann's culpability.)
I have no dog in this fight, except provable truth.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 05:30
fernie121 wrote:
> It’s true J.J. doesn’t know any of this for certain. But
> certain individuals being discussed here have been very
> revealing of themselves, at least on how they think (not
> necessarily on what they have done), through their postings on
> social media. Particularly Twitter. So basically, if it were
> true I would not be surprised.
>
> Another clarinetist is experiencing quite a falling out through
> their behavior. The victims in this case having audio proof.
> And again, this individual has definitely raised some eyebrows
> in the past with their comments on social media.
>
> All in all, I’m glad the racists and creeps are losing their
> jobs over it. Whoever they are.
Sources, please. Mark C wrote yesterday http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=492028&t=491999
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2021-06-27 09:28
https://www.facebook.com/100058038401756/videos/pcb.223584929586119/915602955669159
That's proof.
Post Edited (2021-06-27 09:29)
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Author: BAS57
Date: 2021-06-27 09:45
These are not "extraordinary claims." This information is all public on Twitter on James Zimmermann's own feed.
Here's James posting about "getting cancelled" by the Nashville Symphony:
https://twitter.com/jameszimmermann/status/1390040259824689157
In other comments, he describes that he "got fired" [his words] by the orchestra because he wouldn't go along with the "woke mob" [again, his words] and the anti-racism training the orchestra made him and others take. Again, all of this is public on Twitter.
There are many difficult racial issues facing our country (and orchestras) today, and there are undoubtedly two sides to the story surrounding James' tenure in Nashville, however, whether or not this happened - this meaning James was fired/resigned because some people in the orchestra thought he did some racist stuff - isn't controversial in the slightest.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 19:36
Le9669 wrote:
> https://www.facebook.com/100058038401756/videos/pcb.223584929586119/915602955669159
>
> That's proof.
>
>
> Post Edited (2021-06-27 09:29)
Perhaps.
--I simply lack enough context Le to say, that this is an example of racism. Still more Le, I completely get that the title of this thread is "Difficulty for African Americans in this profession."
But please understand--as you may lack context here (or not)--that this is a false narrative--a false thread title--at least by its OP.
Poster J.J. the thread's OP, is, with 99.5% probability, (he won't comment I'm sure by design, much though I asked him to) adding this thread as a back door way to accusing James Zimmermann of racism. Please refer to this post from the day before for context.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=491999&t=491999.
And I think we both can agree that J.J's link provides absolutely no proof that the racism Mr. Underwood faced, assuming true (I have no reason to believe otherwise) is of Mr. Zimmermann's doing.
Again--I have no horse in this race other than provable truth: i.e. evidence, corroborative public statements, etc., not "he said/she said."
~~~~~
This said, Le: what I took from your post is that David Blumberg stopped backing a Caucasian woman??? (that would be sexism, not racism) because he feels???she lost an audition based on her abilities alone???not gender???
I'm sorry, that's all fairness allows me to take from that. But I welcome additional facts on this.
By no means am I claiming that gender discrimination hasn't or doesn't exist in classical music. In fact I think this an example of same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Meyer. I think Meyer one of the finest players ever, full stop.
Post Edited (2021-06-27 19:38)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 20:13
BAS57 wrote:
> These are not "extraordinary claims." This information is all
> public on Twitter on James Zimmermann's own feed.
>
> Here's James posting about "getting cancelled" by the Nashville
> Symphony:
> https://twitter.com/jameszimmermann/status/1390040259824689157
>
> In other comments, he describes that he "got fired" [his words]
> by the orchestra because he wouldn't go along with the "woke
> mob" [again, his words] and the anti-racism training the
> orchestra made him and others take. Again, all of this is
> public on Twitter.
>
> There are many difficult racial issues facing our country (and
> orchestras) today, and there are undoubtedly two sides to the
> story surrounding James' tenure in Nashville, however, whether
> or not this happened - this meaning James was fired/resigned
> because some people in the orchestra thought he did some racist
> stuff - isn't controversial in the slightest.
This post claims that Mr. Zimmermann was fired from the Nashville Orchestra, a claim already documented here and by Mr. Zimmermann, and nothing more.
SOURCE YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT OTHER COMMENTS. IT'S ONLY FAIR and asked for by the moderator.
Your claims
* he (Zimmerman) wouldn't go along with the woke mob.
* he wouldn't go along with the anti-racist training that he orchestra made him and others take
* he was fired/resigned because some people in the orchestra thought he did some racist stuff
The worst possible inference that ***MAYBE** can be drawn from this post is use of the word "cancelled" should it refer to the cancel culture movement of eliminating people from professional circles based on their speech. And who knows if that's what Mr. Zimmermann meant.
(A word about cancel culture. Although it comes with negative connotation I have no issue with removing people from positions whose free speech is reasonably determined to be bigoted or insights unrest.)
BAS57, I examined other posts on Mr. Zimmermann's twitter feed. https://twitter.com/jameszimmermann Here's my take, and it's based on facts but a small sample set.
Mr. Zimmermann and Mr. Underwood have a key commonality: they want the best players in orchestras...full stop. I think that neither wants rosters altered by any factor other than musical ability.
I fully agree with Zimmerman, as per a post he linked, that someone who believes classical music is racist risks undermining it. The music might have origins that *MAYBE* could allow someone to say it **was**written originally by and for some racists. And no doubt, today, (poor and) black, it will be harder for you to succeed as a performer within classical music.
But the music (which is color blind) is not racist. And that was the claim. And nobody's a racist when speaking truth.
Now: an inconvenient truth. The professional orchestral repertoire is too difficult--as it is getting audiences is hard enough--that organizations can't afford to hire less than those in the 99.999% percentile of ability.
Should programs exist to train minorities to become this good: yes, but not hire them based on race if they are substandard musicians.
Post Edited (2021-06-27 20:24)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-06-27 20:57
SecondTry, I think you've probably made your point (several times over). You have some support and you've raised some disagreement. I think, especially since neither Mr. Zimmerman nor Mr. Underwood is involved in this discussion to shed light on their own thoughts, you may have gone as far with this as it's possible reasonably to go.
Just an unofficial thought.
Karl
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2021-06-27 21:10
“Now: an inconvenient truth. The professional orchestral repertoire is too difficult--as it is getting audiences is hard enough--that organizations can't afford to hire less than those in the 99.999% percentile of ability.”
Hmm…after all these years, I hadn’t realized that there is a distinction between “professional orchestral repertoire” and plain old orchestral repertoire.
After all, I’m playing a lot of the same stuff I played during my high school years.
Hopefully, I’m playing it a little bit better now? 🤞🏻
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 21:22
Karl:
Respectifully, your/our boss said:
"If you have something detrimental to say about someone that is not supported by commonly available references then it's so much better to bite your tongue and shut your mouth," in the last thread related to accusing Zimmermann of wrongdoing:
and the board's rules say "Don't accuse people of crimes; that's what courts are for." which is a short stretch from 'don't commit libel, that's what civil courts are for,' and
Despite that
* J.J. linked this post a day after his accusations against Zimmermann but wouldn't say, as requested, that it was unrelated.....
* That was implied by Liquorice
"In the orchestra for 12 years before being dismissed? That sounds coincidentally like the same amount of time a certain clarinet player was there!"
and
Le9669 provided a post
https://www.facebook.com/100058038401756/videos/pcb.223584929586119/915602955669159
not only off point, but that proved nothing, please check
and
BAS57 claimed that:
* (Zimmerman) wouldn't go along with the woke mob.
* he wouldn't go along with the anti-racist training that he orchestra made him and others take
* he was fired/resigned because some people in the orchestra thought he did some racist stuff
but provided no proof.
Meanwhile I attack nobody, try to present balance between the realities of racism and orchestras needing to hire the most talented just to remain financially sound, and ask these people to document their claims and they don't.
Maybe posts here that make accusations against others, not substantiated should be removed, giving me nothing to write about.
My $0.02 sir.
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2021-06-27 21:24
I've never seen someone go this far to protect someone who has been fired for alleged racism.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-06-27 21:44
I have urelated personal stories Le9669...offline stuff
..still waiting on you answering to the intention of your original post......
Post Edited (2021-06-27 21:45)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-06-27 22:12
SecondTry wrote:
> Karl:
>
> Maybe posts here that make accusations against others, not
> substantiated should be removed, giving me nothing to write
> about.
>
> My $0.02 sir.
Maybe having the last word will make you feel vindicated. I'm not interested in being drawn into this as a participant, but I don't see that it's going anywhere or that it has broken any new ground for several posts. And it's about a third and now a fourth party neither of whom is a participant. Enough!
Karl
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