 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2015-04-27 23:58
Due to receiving a very personal attack from Dave Jones aka "WhitePlainsDave" I have decided to refrain from the BBoard. I will not have my intelligence insulted in such a condescending and personal way as I have just done. I will continue to make music with my clarinet and not fret of over what has become common place on this forum. That is to post about the quality of a reed that has been played for 10 minutes or whether this cork grease or that makes my middle ring and the overall tone "darker". I frankly don't care about this and I am sad that people such as "WhitePlainsDave" think that this is what clarinet playing is about. This BBoard was a great place to come to discuss music for the clarinet and the interpretation of it. In the early days for me it was a great resource to be able to read varied opinions on phrasing and the like.
I wish everyone well and will take my "lacking social IQ", and "mental incapacity" with me and not bother the BBoard no more.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2015-04-28 00:05
I for one will miss your contributions. Sad when this type of stuff happens. :(
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-28 00:30
At a certain point perhaps anything meaningful has already been discussed. I saw this happen at the Sax On The Web site. A personal attack is just crazy. Every road eventually ends.
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Author: gkern
Date: 2015-04-28 01:07
Peter - a thoroughbred such as yourself should never let the father of a mule get the best of him. Please reconsider.
Gary K
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2015-04-28 01:50
I feel your pain.
It's just sad when amateurs who couldn't get past the first round of a community orchestra audition think they know better than those of us who are in the trenches every day.
(How's that for an ad hominem attack!)
I always think twice before posting, knowing that these envious idiots will puff up their collective chests and delight in telling you how wrong they think you are.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-04-28 02:06
I tried to leave for good once in the past too. I hope you fail as I did and I see your return in a few months. Don't let cyber bullying (yup, it happens to adults too) win.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2015-04-28 03:34
Your contributions will be sorely missed, Peter.
Even as an amateur, I find the comments of some to be annoying and sometimes downright nasty. I can only imagine that a professional such as yourself would be even more frustrated.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2015-04-28 03:39
Don't let the bad guys win. You and I may have disagreed in the past but discourse should be open and allowed. Personal attacks should not be. Sorry that this has happened by I for one would miss your posts.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-04-28 04:06
I drastically scaled back my involvement with this forum a couple of years back when it became pretty clear that ad hominem attacks were pretty much allowed, by pros and amateurs alike. I still check in from time to time, and comment occasionally, but it seems to me that most of the intelligent discourse was driven rather aggressively from this forum.
Ah well. There are other things to do. Glad I got to meet some other players through this place--even developed some friendships that continue beyond.
Best wishes, Peter. Perhaps you'll check in every now and then like I do--if not, perhaps our paths will cross on the clarinet road elsewhere.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-04-28 04:40
Peter, sorry you have to leave. I've benefited from your presence here - many thanks.
I'm curious as to where the cited attack occurred. I see there was some negative stuff in the "10 accessories" thread, but I didn't see any mention there of "social I.Q." or "mental incapacity". It's hard for me to imagine such terms bearing any weight in this environment, except upon the reputation of the accuser. But then, my own social I.Q. probably starts with a decimal point.
This recalls another "goodbye" thread - Tony Pay. He didn't give any reasons. I've wondered if he was dissatisfied with the level of discourse here.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-04-28 05:18
Good Wishes, Peter!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-04-28 05:27
Philip Caron wrote:
> This recalls another "goodbye" thread - Tony Pay. He didn't
> give any reasons. I've wondered if he was dissatisfied with
> the level of discourse here.
Yes.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-28 05:38
I'm sure Tony left because he didn't find much interesting here. I'm equally sure he left because people stopped rising to his bait.
I'll miss Peter's contributions. I hope he can get past the comments by one troll. After a lot of years, I've developed a hide like a rhinoceros.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2015-04-28 05:43)
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2015-04-28 05:57
Tony was a good fisherman. Many of us rose and bit at his bait.
Some even got hooked.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-04-28 05:58
It is always sad to see when a member who makes very positive contributions feels the need to leave. Peter's posts are always intelligent and offers real world experience. I am disappointed it came to this.
Now I guess we can get on to the next important discussion of which case handle is the best or something equally vital.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-04-28 06:11
Peter,
I'm saddened by your decision, I'll greatly miss your contribution to this forum. I find that after a while I know who the trolls are and I just skip whatever they have to say. Good fortune attend you.
Tony F.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-28 06:29
I had my case handle gold-plated. You wouldn't believe the difference it makes
Ken Shaw
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-04-28 08:19
Sorry to see you go, but I understand.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-28 08:29
Okay, let me keep this brief, well at least for me.
Despite other people's appreciation for some of Mr. Cigleris' content of past, which I respect, this same individual has track record and pattern here of adding, at his own admission, impetuous threads that are on the best day not supportive, and on their worst day snide or so utterly obvious so as to be inappropriate by any reasonable standard. He denied my request to offer him examples.
Recently, I asked people about what accessories they most valued, clearly acknowledging up front the subjective nature of such things. Rather than add meaningful content to the thread, (which could have included dissenting opinion about certain accessories), instead, he pointed out the subjective nature of my query that I already conceeded, not as if it isn't already obvious that we all bring our opinions here. Normally, I'd let this slide. But Mr. Cigleris showed pattern of disreguard on matters pointed out to him previously by me.
When Mr. Cigleris responded here to me with his 'lighten up buddy retort,' rather than use this forum for personal dispute, I took the matter offline, as one should, and told him why not being nice is bad policy, providing him with examples of how simply being honest, even if it disrepects others, is not, as he claims, valid simply because its true. It would seem he's better at commentary than being its recipient, seeking the stage for his protracted death scene here, rather than leaving quietly.
Mr. Cigleris talks of this board no longer being a great place to come to discuss music for the clarinet and the interpretation of it as if he has no control over its content. Best that I can determine, all members are free to start threads on all different topics. The board is, with Mr. Charette's okay, what we make of it. Posts that don't interest you need not warrant your attention with fear that if you ignore them, you'll be booted from the site.
Mr. Shaw, I am no troll, but your entitled to your opinion. I ask you to examine threads of Mr. Cigleris' comments that justify my reasoning, ask him to forward you my email, and read my content before juging. I hope Mr. Cigleris reconsiders. His clarinet ideas weren't attacked, just his manners. I certainly didn't ask him to leave, nor is my place to. But if he does return, he does need to accept that in open forums, we're all responsible for how we act.
I'd personally appreciate it if we could now all get back to things clarinet.
Thank you
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-04-28 12:06
WhitePlainsDave,
let's look at your most recent thread entitled "Your top few accessories".
cigleris responded with "Worth is in the eye of the beholder surely..?"
To which you responded:
"And Peter, I wrote "....your subjective worth."
And you wrote "Worth is in the eye of the beholder surely..?"
Really, (sarcasm), such lists, let alone comments here are subject to the opinion of the writer?? Gee, thanks for pointing that out (not).
If this was the American TV Show Jeopardy your words would be the clue to the answer "what's 37 bytes wasted?"
It's fine to have (dissenting) opinion. It's quite another to have a track record here of quips here that are borderline snide (need examples?)--now with the added feature of boderline redundant."
To which cigleris responded:
"WhitePlainsFave, you need to relax... I'm not sure where your animosity is coming from, my comment is vaild and not snide (as you put it). Yes I've been guilty of posting hasty comments but I've never set out to undermine anyone or be dissenting. I try and be honest but I won't be posting anymore because I'm afraid you'll get offended if music was actually discussed (that was sarcasm!) ;-)"
Personally, I agree with cigleris. IMHO, everything on this wonderful BB is entirely subjective. Whether a responder wants to expand their subjective response is their privilege and prerogative. I personally found cigleris' reponse to be quite harmless. He certainly, IMO, didn't berate anyone and I didn't regard his short sentence as being a "snide" remark.
However, I personally found your remarks to his short subjective comment to be rude, belittling, demeaning, sarcastic, downright mean, and with a strong sense of undermining his credibility on this BB.
Now, I fully expect to be attacked by you. After all, IMHO, you threatened me in a personal email. I personally vowed after that incident to never respond to a thread on this BB and I'm quite surprised that I'm even writing this.
Dave, I do regard you as an intelligent man. However, I don't see you as the policeman of BB members "manners" or whether BB responders need to be careful as to what they write lest you "set them straight". That, to me, is left to Marc C.
Cigleris, please do reconsider. Through the "search" function, I believe you've been posting and responding since June of 2003. David Jones, again to the best of my ability by using the search function, made his first post on November 8, 2014. I have found nothing for David on the BB before that date.
Peter, you are well regarded on this BB and I can only hope that the words I have written will cause you to change your mind.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2015-04-28 14:12
I believe that this board exists for all those who enjoy and love the clarinet and its music, whether they are seasoned, experienced, high-profile professionals or newbies, young or old, whatever their race, creed or any other label you might like to stick on them. Everyone starts their clarinet experience somewhere and we should all never stop learning.
Of course many of the topics which arise can only be discussed subjectively, music being a subjective art after all, but we are all entitled to our opinions and sometimes we should agree to differ and decide that what works for us does not have to work for everyone. The topics which gave rise to this thread only asked for opinions as to what our most preferred accessories were, which others can agree or disagree with and/or decide to try or not as they wish.
I am sure that most of us post here in the spirit of mutual cooperation and enjoyment so I find it sad that two regular contributors, both undeniably successful and well-regarded, have felt the need to formally leave the board on the basis of debates which appear to have descended into uncalled-for personal attacks.
I also can't help noticing that they are both UK-based.
I really hope that we can keep discussions civilised in the future. Clarinet Bulletin Board is not a political forum!
Happy clarinetting!
Vanessa.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-04-28 15:31
I remember a few years ago asking one of the top clarinet soloists in the world who is a dear friend about Mr. Cigleris and he said that you are the real deal in every way.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2015-04-28 15:51
You know, if this forum had a kill filter, I would definitely start contributing.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-04-28 16:05
rmk54 wrote:
> You know, if this forum had a kill filter, I would definitely
> start contributing.
Ah, and if it were automatic even ...
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2015-04-28 18:00
I started in this board as merely a kid (hell, I haven't grown up at all) and always got attacked for one thing or another. I eventually faded away naturally, but I always come back once in a while.
In the clarinet community, you have the gearheads that hast more knowledge than thou, and they will make it seem that way. I have refrained from giving in to the "I am too far inferior to continue on!" I am happy with how I developed as a musician, with my own independent thought and preferences. I might not be a well known professional, but I gots what I need.
Basically, no one knows more than anyone and can tell you what to do. I do enough hobbies where a know-it-all will try to piss on your parade, and just pull out your umbrella and march on!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-04-28 18:23
Dan, interesting statistics. Peter: 12 years, David: 6 months. I suspect total word counts, if provided, would by comparison appear ironic.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-04-28 18:32
The rules of this forum ban personal attacks. I have no idea how often this rule is enforced (for all I know, posts might be constantly deleted while I'm not watching). But anyone who hangs around here long enough knows there are plenty of personal attacks that are allowed, and have been for years. The rule seems to be very selectively enforced.
Just out of curiosity, what constitutes a foul egregious enough to be removed? The infrequent enforcement of this rule has obviously driven away many of us (though one of the most frequent and vehement offenders also left in a similar thread as this...as Ken mentioned, it was probably more because fewer folks took his bait).
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2015-04-28 18:35)
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2015-04-28 18:58
"> You know, if this forum had a kill filter, I would definitely start contributing."
If we participate, we should be contributing. The amount anyone gives is not made public. If 10 people who were not contributing each give $1, the administrator has $10 more to keep the forum running.
And while the forum doesn't have a kill filter, every computer probably has a wheel or an arrow that lets us scroll past comments we don't like.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-28 19:41
I skip the WPD postings. I read the first few but learned very little, and that little was buried in irrelevant digressions. I wish Peter had done the same. It's now TL;DR.
Ken Shaw
Member since the Sneezy days, 6427 posts and counting.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-28 21:58
"IMHO, you threatened me in a personal email."
No such thing, not even close, not by law or reasonableness.
* I started a thread on the science of clarinet accoustics and projection, you suggested, in what you concurred afterwards was harsh tones, that I do my homework and check the bboard archives.
* Rather than embarrass you here, as you did me, I contacted you privately to say I had done that legwork prior to my post, and that there was little I could find in the way of science.
* You voluntarily modified your post as a result.
* Prior to today, Mr. Cigleris and you are the only ones that this contributor has spoken to outside this bboard to express such discontent with, which has nothing to do with which side of the pond any of us reside on, our number of posts, or longevity on the bboard.
* In my most recent post on accessories I deliberately stated the obvious subjective value of gear precisely because people like Mr. Cigleris, who has targeted my threads in the past, might, rather than meaningfully contribute or simply move on, provide hurtful or content absent banter. With him in mind, I choose to, so I hoped, preempt that by acknowledging that we all already know about our all coming to the table with different ideas on the value of things.
* Again, Mr. Cigleris, whose other content I respect that people have enjoyed, choose to leave, and blame in part the very content of a bboard he can contribute to, as his reason. My private talk with him sought to make him understand a different approach, so he would remain here, but with different perspective.
* Mr. Shaw, I completely respect your distaste for my thoughts...doesn't make me a troll.
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Author: William
Date: 2015-04-28 22:34
IMHO, this BB needs more members like Peter and less of the "other". Thanks for being a friend and take care.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-04-28 22:42
Dave,
In my psychological studies of personalities, it is written: If a person "feels" threatened, they are being threatened.
It's not a question of legalities or satisfying specifics of law, it's simply about "feelings".
As I stated in my email to you a few minutes ago, you showed me the error of my way, I recognized it, and I did indeed change my response to your thread. However, the change was brought about by two things: 1) the recognition that I had made a mistake and 2) the "feeling" that I was indeed being threatened.
I have written Peter a personal email asking him to reconsider joining the BB group again. Perhaps if he received more personal emails, this may, indeed, come about.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-04-28 22:47
[ Alright kids, the drama is finished. Take it offline. We're done here ] - GBK
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