 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RunnerSean
Date: 2012-04-02 09:10
Dear all. I've been reading many threads regarding the double lip embouchure and its benefits to the player with regards to sound, smoothness and most importantly, natural way of playing. I play single lipped from the 1st day and have a moderately severe biting issue that I would like to rectify using the double lip. I tend to leak air at the sides of my mouth too.
I tried it a few times warming up with long tones prior to my routine practice and I realised that my sound becomes more empty, dispersed and flat, albeit bigger, as I move up the scale. I also have a thick tongue. What am I doing wrong?
After warming up with double lip for 30 minutes I continued with single for about an 1 hour, and find that I need to cut my practice short because my mouth lost strength in holding the mouthpiece, which hadn't happened in a long time. Is this a normal issue that comes from switching to double lip in the beginning stages?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Best regards,
Sean
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-04-02 09:34
Sean,
I'm also experiencing the problem, including wavering notes in the clarion register, and gave up on it, since i only tried it out for fun. I have no problems on my single-lip embochure. Would like to know the answer too!
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Author: musica
Date: 2012-04-02 09:40
Speaking as someone who decided to change to double lip embouchure in
grad school.... It is very tedious at first but well worth the effort. Kal Opperman
would always say play 5 minutes, REST, i.e. do finger exercises silently then
Same thing again. And again....
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-04-02 09:58
Part of the 'new' fatigue will be that you necessitate using muscles that you may not have used before (upper lip, cheek muscles). The other issue is that 'biters' are clamping down with the jaw and probably have settled into a set-up that includes a mouthpiece that is more open than necessary or a harder reed than necessary or both.
Double lip requires subtlety. As you get used to it more and more you may find yourself correcting some of the above issues.
You did not mention 'stability' such as the clarinet rocking back and forth since you are not 'locking' it into place with the teeth. Perhaps this means that you are still putting way too much jaw pressure into it..........this will be quite painful to your upper lip if this remains the case.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-04-02 12:56
People have different lip and jaw structures, so a little experimenting is needed. One thing to try is bringing more or less upper lip under your teeth. At least one prominent double lip player of the recent past recommended using only a "thin membrane" of upper lip under the top teeth. Others recommend using an amount equal to the amount of lower lip you pull in. Both lips can be pulled farther or less far into your mouth, giving you a lot of maneuvering room to account for physical indiosyncracies. Do what gives you the most secure feeling of control.
The same is true when using only the lower lip over the teeth. The amount can vary from one player to another, and problems like spreading of the sound or wavering of the pitch in the upper clarion can be the result of a problem in this area whether you play single or double lip.
In my own case, converting to double lip was a very long and non-linear process that went on for over ten years. I began using it only in warmups to set my embouchure shape, trying to duplicate the shape without the upper lip pulled under (but still pulling *against* my upper teeth). For several years I went back and forth between using more double lip and less double lip. I eventually found the double embouchure to be more comfortable and just stopped using single, but by then I'd been doing it at least part time for so long that I'd already built up the physical structures I needed. Most players who start out playing single lip, in my experience, tend not to make the switch completely all at once (others on this BB may differ) but gradually over a longer period of time.
Karl
Post Edited (2012-04-02 16:18)
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2012-04-02 15:28
If just starting to play double lip, you might try resting the bell on your thigh, to aid your adjustment and develop embouchure support.
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Author: RunnerSean
Date: 2012-04-02 16:51
Thanks to all your comments. Just to clarify, I do have a problem with wavering sounds and lost of stabilty when I play with DL, but I reduce this problem by resting the bell on my knee (like what Joseph suggested).
I feel that my oral cavity increases a lot but voicing/vocalising feels a lot more different than playing with SL. I tend to put more lip pressure to the mouthpiece with DL to get my high notes in tune and my sound generally became less focused with DL. How much mouthpiece should I take in when I play with DL?
Sincerely,
Sean
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-04-03 01:06
RunnerSean wrote:
> I feel that my oral cavity increases a lot but
> voicing/vocalising feels a lot more different than playing with
> SL. I tend to put more lip pressure to the mouthpiece with DL
> to get my high notes in tune and my sound generally became less
> focused with DL. How much mouthpiece should I take in when I
> play with DL?
>
Changes in the shape and opening of the oral cavity that result directly from the DL embouchure should, ideally, improve the sound and response if you were biting with single lip. If you're exaggerating the amount of opening beyond what pulling the lip under produces, then you could be distorting the sound (sort of like the way you bend the sound for a glissando effect).
I don't think you end up necessarily using less pressure than with single lip, but it's often applied in double lip in different directions by different muscles. The main reason why biting is a problem for some single lip players is that they may press almost straight upward against the reed. This tends to invite a lot of involvement from the jaw itself, which is controlled by very strong muscles that are meant to bite and chew sometimes tough or hard food and can easily overpower the resistance of a reed. Double lip almost forces you to apply pressure with the muscles immediately surrounding the mouth that control the lips themselves, producing a more even distribution of the pressure *around* the mouthpiece and reed. I don't feel I'm using less pressure with double lip, but I do feel a clearer distinction between the roles my jaw and my lips play and can control them more independently. Remember that my original goal (as I said in my other post) was to be able to mimic the sensations that double lip encouraged when I went back to single lip. I just found eventually that I kept slipping back into my bad habits whenever I went back to single lip for any length of time, so I made the change to DL permanent.
Without knowing exactly what you're hearing when you describe the sound in the upper register as "less focused" with DL, I don't want to guess at an explanation. I'd need to hear the sound itself.
The standard answer about how much mouthpiece to take in is that your bottom lip (or more specifically the teeth under it) should be under the place on the facing curve where the reed and mouthpiece separate. This point can be found in a number of ways. Slide a thin piece of paper between the reed and the rails and use a pencil to mark the spot on the reed where the paper gets stuck. Then take the paper out, form a normal embouchure with the mouthpiece and push your tongue against the reed down to where your lip stops you. Look to see where the saliva stops and how it compares to the spot you marked with the pencil on the reed. There have been other (probably better) ways others have described here on the BB.
That said, you will still need to experiment with more mouthpiece or less until you find where the sound and response are optimal. I find myself taking more or less mouthpiece depending on the resistance of the reed I'm using.
Karl
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