 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2012-01-01 02:26
Well, actually, first top priority obession. My new-barrel-obssession will follow my current obssession of wanting a new mouthpiece.
In these past several years, I've only played Vandoren mouthpieces: B45, M13, M15 (and have tried the M30). I'm ready to part with Vandoren and try something different. I'm coming to this board for some professional opinions.
My criteria:
1. Should not cost much over $200.
2. Should be able to play with 3.5-3.75 reeds (Gonzalez, Vandoren V12, Legere Signature)
3. Will be played solo, in concert bands, in various ensembles.
4. Want to produce a dark, mellow tone that responds well in all registers.
5. My current barrel is 66 and I tune to 440.
6. Ideally, want to "play" the mp easily and not have to re-train my (double lip) embouchure to accomodate the mp.
I'm open to your experiences and opinions to help me decide which mouthpiec(es) I should try.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-01-01 02:29
Walter Grabner's K-series mouthpieces fit your requirements rather nicely. Look at a K13 or K11.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2012-01-01 02:29
In the meantime, I have been and am continuing to read up on various mouthpieces
and prices.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-01 02:43
Many of the custom makers are hovering around $300 these days. I would highly recommend ANY of the Greg Smith mouthpieces. He makes VERY even, well contoured rails all the way to the very tip, so the altissimo is just as easy as the rest of the registers for control, and articulation (I am partial to the wooden versions but all are very good).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-01-01 02:53
I've never understood why players who are courting changes in mouthpiece put value on being able to continue using the same strength reed. Unless you have a stock of reeds representing too great an investment to sacrifice, why wouldn't you find a mouthpiece with potential and then learn what reed strength works best with it?
You might not, if you test candidate mouthpieces with the reed strength you're used to, be able to accurately judge the potential of a mouthpiece that requires something drastically different, but you can certainly tell the basic sound and consistency of a mouthpiece even if your current reeds aren't ideal but are close. If a #4 or #3 V-12 would make a given mouthpiece sound better than the combination you're now using, wouldn't you make the change? It would certainly open the range of mouthpieces to consider.
Karl
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2012-01-01 03:08
So, Karl, are you telling me that there are quality mouthpieces that would require a 4.5 or 5 reed that I wouldn't feel like I was blowing my guts out? I'd like to enjoy playing and not be played by a mouthpiece.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-01-01 03:21
Eugene Monde from the National Symphony Orchestra uses 5+ V12 strength reeds on an M13 Lyre. It doesn't matter what reed strength you use. Regardless you have to have good air support whether using strength 2.5 reeds or like Eugene 5+. I'm sure he isn't blowing his brains out. It depends on the mouthpiece setup, instrument's resistance, your facial construction etc.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2012-01-01 03:35
Well isn't that the main point of having different mouthpiece facings? Longer curves require stiffer reeds and more closed tip openings require stiffer reeds (and vice-versa).
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-01-01 04:27
Absolutely. Or you might find your match in sound and response concepts with something more open or shorter-curved using a softer reed.
Karl
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-01 14:17
A couple points regarding the reed subject:
For myself, finding suitable reeds is always a work in progress. Being that reed makers sometimes use bad cane, or cane that is dried to quickly, or maybe the machines get out of tune, although I have found that my Rico Grand Concert Select 4.5s are rather consistent. Had one really oddly shaped reed in one box, but I put it on just for kicks, and the thing played amazing. Which brings me to my next point.
When people talk about reed choice as a result of mouthpiece size, the common conception is as follows:
Longer facings require harder reeds
Closer tip openings require harder reeds
While I probably should not try to contradict the past masters, who have more knowledge of the instrument than I can ever dream of, I unfortunately do not agree with their conclusion on the matter. Let me explain.
I have recently taken it upon myself to approach the oboe, and more importantly to the subject, oboe reed making. There seems to be two main classes of oboe reed scraping, European and American scrapes. The former is performed by scraping the cane only very close to the tip (possibly scraping within only 5-8mm of the tip opening). The latter is a long scrape, which can extend up to lengths of 20mm or more of the reed. The result is that in the shorter scrape, only the tip of the reed is vibrating, while on the longer scrape, much more of the cain is involved in the production of sound. I believe that this could relate to clarinet mouthpieces, in how you need your reed to perform. If you have a reed cut with a thick heart and back, much more of the tip will vibrate in comparison to the rest of the reed parts. If you have a reed with a thin heart and back, much more of the whole reed will be a part of the sound.
My conclusions:
A longer facing on a mouthpiece frees up more of the reed to vibrate, but if the heart and back are too thick, they won't vibrate in any situation.
Obtaining a reed that is shaped to suit your needs is just as important as choosing it's size, possibly even moreso.
Reed strength does not make a good reed for any particular mouthpiece, it just controls ease of use for the player.
Just some thoughts, I by no means think I am 100% correct, it's just what I observe currently.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-01-01 14:45
I really like my Gennusa Excellente GE*. It isn't a fussy mouthpiece, it responds very well, and I play double lip very successfully on it. I've been using Rico Reserve Classics lately, and these reeds work very well with this mouthpiece. If you decide to go this route, you might also want to check out the GE, GE**, and the three Gennusa Retro models.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-01-01 14:51
Claire Annette -
You sound like yourself on any decent quality equipment. What counts is the software, not the hardware. You find something you like and learn to play it in many ways.
Daniel Bonade said to take all of your mouthpieces to the middle of a lake, select one and throw the rest overboard. Then go back to shore and learn how to play it.
GAS (Gear Accumulation Syndrome) is an easy addiction for clarinetists to pick up. Of course you explore what's available and pick what works best, but you can't let it take over your life. When you start imagining what a different mouthpiece would do for you, switch your train of thought to a different track -- how learning to make a new tone would improve your playing.
That said, your Vandoren mouthpieces are quite different. See http://www.saxplus.com/vandoren-clarinet-mpc-info.html
The B45 has a medium open tip with a medium long lay.
The M13 has a close tip with a long lay.
The M15 has a medium close tip with a long lay.
The M30 has a medium tip with a long lay.
Before you go to something else, I suggest that you try a Vandoren medium tip/medium lay model such as the 5RV Lyre.
There are excellent hand-finished mouthpieces, a significant step up from Vandoren, available for around $200, from makers such as Clark Fobes http://www.clarkwfobes.com/clarinet_mouthpieces.html and
Walter Grabner http://www.clarinetxpress.com/mouthpieces.html.
Once you find something you like, listen to the great players and work on producing as many good tones as you can. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=94788&t=94788. For example, listen to Robert Marcellus playing Wagner, where he makes a creamy "German" tone on his Buffet R13 http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Without-Words-Richard-Classical/dp/B000002763/ref=sr_1_14?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1325431607&sr=1-14, and then his Mozart Concerto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUAke0jtQEk, where he makes his "standard" velvety "American" sound.
In a band, you blend into the section sound. This means a slightly covered sound without much high-overtone "ping." Rolling your lower lip further in over your teeth and making an "aardvark" face can help.
As a soloist, you want brilliance and projection. Among other things, I try to make a neat, compact embouchure (Keith Stein described it as "dressy") and pull my lower lip outward so that no more than half the red part is over my teeth.
In chamber music, you want something (actually many things) in between.
These are only a few widely separated examples. You learn by listening hard and finding ways of adjusting your lips, the front, middle and back of your tongue and soft palate to make many good tones.
There's no silver bullet. You are your instrument.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-01-01 18:49
You might try sending a cast off mouthpiece to a good tech (like Lee Livengood) to be refaced.
Bob Phillips
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2012-01-01 19:28
A mouthpiece that used to be quite popular and is still available, but rarely, if ever, mentioned in these discussions is the Portnoy. I use a Portnoy BP02. It works well with a wide range of reed strengths, is extremely responsive, and gives me good control over the entire range. On the other hand, my approach is if it works well for me I stick with it. My "new" instrument is a Selmer series 10 and goes back to a Selmer CT and a pre-WWII Kohlert (before the Nazis messed them up).
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-01-02 02:31
DrewSorensenMusic wrote:
> When people talk about reed choice as a result of mouthpiece
> size, the common conception is as follows:
>
> Longer facings require harder reeds
> Closer tip openings require harder reeds
>
The common generalization, yes, but there are all sorts of real-world combinations and compensations and they need also to include consideration of the baffle and chamber of the mouthpiece.
>
> My conclusions:
> A longer facing on a mouthpiece frees up more of the reed to
> vibrate, but if the heart and back are too thick, they won't
> vibrate in any situation.
True in itself, but the reed manufacturers try to deal with this in the reeds' design. And the need for variation here is accounted for by different models' profiles. This isn't a question of strength (read below).
> Obtaining a reed that is shaped to suit your needs is just as
> important as choosing it's size, possibly even moreso.
>
> Reed strength does not make a good reed for any particular
> mouthpiece, it just controls ease of use for the player.
>
Both of these statements are to an extent true, but it doesn't contradict a position that limiting a mouthpiece search to those that will play a specific reed strength is of questionable importance as a search criterion. It can work out well to choose the mouthpiece based on its potential for any number of reasons and then work to find the reed strength and shape that best suits it.
Drew, you're partially right in what you've written, but you make a a wrong assumption, that reed strength necessarily results from its thickness.
It is true in my experience that the proportions of a reed will greatly affect the tone quality and response that it's capable of producing. The actual location of the material within the reed's profile along with characteristics of the cane itself are the primary differences among the myriad brands and models within brands of commercial clarinet and sax reeds in today's market (and I assume of commercial oboe and bassoon reeds as well, although I know little about them first-hand). Often in adjusting reeds for myself I need to remove a good deal more material from areas farther down the sides next to the rails than some players recommend. I guess I'm more on the side of American oboists.
But where I think some confusion appears in your reasoning is that reed *strength* is for most reed brands I'm familiar with not a function of thickness or its distribution within the reed's shape. It's the result of the stiffness of the cane, I assume (I confess intuitively, without physical evidence) determined by the cane's density. A fact that I *can* back with physical evidence is that, as an example, a #3 V12 is, within certain tolerances, equal in thickness to (or at least within the same consistent range of thickness as) a #4-1/2. The stiffer reeds (measured by machines the manufacturers have for the purpose), i.e. higher strengths, are no thicker or thinner than the lighter ones of lower strengths. Often reeds from the same box seem to differ in strength, but the stiffer-seeming ones are not consistently the thicker ones. That's true whether you measure the rails, the center of the heart or any consistent location in between. The manufacturers say that the reeds are cut first and strength is determined afterward, and what I've measured supports that claim.
So, while the difference you describe between European and American preferences in oboe reeds has a definite analog in the way clarinet reeds are designed by manufacturers and chosen by players, it still tends to be true that
- the mouthpiece and reed need to match
- that a very acceptable or even superior mouthpiece can seem deceptively unplayable if used with an incompatible strength of reed
- that looking only for mouthpieces that will play reeds of one particular strength can leave out many worthy candidates.
Karl
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-02 02:49
Well Karl, I really don't know what to say. I do think we've said the same thing, but I feel as though I need to defend myself. I really don't know why.
Reed strengths by number are just a reference for comparison. There are charts that compare the relative strength of reeds between makes. The generalizations I stated above are in truth greatly accepted by most.
I guess it is true, a reed could possibly be harder from cane density, and maybe not thickness, but either way, the number on the box is the reference, and I'm not here to argue this particular point, because it is not quite important to the subject. I guess above is you substitue reed hardness when I said thickness, it might suit your needs.
Other than that, I'm quite confused what else to say.
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Author: luca1
Date: 2012-01-02 03:17
Claire Annette have you thought about the Tom Ridenour mouthpieces? They fit your budget nicely, and he too is a double-lip player... I am currently playing his HW (Harold Wright) mouthpiece and love the tone, intonation & response.
By the way you might want to check his viedos on choosing a mouthpiece B4 you finally spend the bucks.
All the best, Luca.
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Author: ClarionRegister
Date: 2012-01-02 03:19
Well I've recently purchased a Vandoren 5RV and its wonderful. The mouthpiece produces a a very nice tone and its flexible, therefore you can use it in the various settings you require.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-01-02 16:29
@BartHx (or anyone), please tell me more about the Portnoy BP02. Do you know how it sounds compared to a VanDoren M13 lyre?
Laurie
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