 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-11-11 19:55
I don't quite get the knock against Tony P.
His posts are always interesting and for some people apparently rousing!
If you think he's wrong rebut him point by point and nail him to the wall if you can! What's with all the thin skins?
He's not just some non entity grouch you know...he's does have some professional creds, probably more than anyone else who contributes to this BB.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-11-11 22:32
I think that this public airing of one's ''dirty linen'' has been totally unnecessary.
The two persons concerned could well have communicated privately, rather than air their differences on the BB and, thereby setting a bad example to the most impressionable correspondents to this forum.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-11-11 23:04
Then again, it's good to see that even titans have a human side, too.
No big deal IMO.
--
Ben
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-12 02:44
ned wrote:
<<I think that this public airing of one's ''dirty linen'' has been totally unnecessary.>>
But it wasn't "dirty linen." It was in regard to a statement Ken made publicly on the BBoard, and those of us actually interested in the subject matter of the article in question (not just Tony, but also stevensfo, Lelia, myself, and I'm sure plenty of others) had an interest in knowing what it was Ken thought was "idiotic," too--not because we care to win an argument with Ken, but rather because if there is something he knows that we don't, we'd like to know about it.
Post Edited (2009-11-12 16:37)
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-11-12 03:10
Perhaps mrn is correct.
In which event, personal invective should have been avoided.
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-11-12 03:14
Compared to most internet communities, this one is incredibly civil. We should quite frankly be thankful for that.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-11-12 04:04
Facts should be verifiable, and have the ability to be referenced and tested.
Opinions can be put forward, and be the root of discussion and debate.
The problem arises when opinions are presented as facts, and we are all capable of that.
The trick to pull off is to respectfully disagree, and always be open to the possibility that with differing opinions, our own opinion might be based on falsehoods rather than fact.
But if it just comes down to a different of opinion, then we should know when to stop in claiming we are "right" if there is no right or wrong.
If we witness somebody passing fact that we know to be false, then we should say so, and challenge that. If we do, we must be prepared to give references and be tested on the challenge.
More often than not, it comes down to opinion again!
This BBoard is a fantastic resource for fact, and a fascinating read for opinion, and I would not want it to change too much as long as respect prevails.
Chris
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-11-12 11:36
Tony is a fantastic resource for the board. He's a top player and has a world of knowledge, especially about the Mozart era clarinet. I sometimes disagree with something he writes, but it would be a great pity if we lost his input.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-11-12 12:07
But he did make fun of my mouse and that hurt his feelings.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-11-12 13:37
Even the best can get kicked out for being a pain..
We all remeber clearly Kathleen Battle and her rudeness..
She certainly hurt herself at the Met by nasty behaviour...Theilemann will have nothing to do with her either.
Being positive with one's fellows can help keep a career going...opinion is worth alot on a personal level. Many opera stars have suffered from a prima donna complex...
The great part about boards is people can also hide behind words..but words do offend and people DO REMEMBER.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19940209&slug=1894280
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-11-12 13:52)
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Author: vin
Date: 2009-11-12 14:11
David Dow-
I often enjoy your posts, but did you really just compare Kathleen Battle and Tony Pay? Kathleen Battle threw hissy fits after having to share a dressing room and intentionally sabotaging her fellow singers during rehearsal (among other things). You may not like Tony's style, but he isn't being arbitrarily crazy and mean. He's engaged in debate about clarinet subjects, not breaking other people's clarinets.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-11-12 14:17
Both seem to think highly of themselves...and have a tendency to hit out..one with words and the other with behaviour.
As to the post..when Tony went after Ken Shaw about a post that was over a year old is that a bit much? Also the post was not even on this board>
Here it is:
Mr. Pay writes
Ken,
In August last year you made a post about a document:
http://www.woodwindcourse.co.uk/user/image/clarinet_bore_design.doc
…originating from the Newark website:
http://www.woodwindcourse.co.uk
...in which you said,
"While it has some interesting material, it's FULL of errors and misinformation. For every good idea, there's an idiotic one."
stevensfo, who had initially posted the link to the document, immediately enquired what these errors were, to no effect.
That was August 2008."
there it is
Least one could do is keep the problem on the other board not here. However, I do not pretend to be a moderator etc.
Is that scholarly behaviour?
...if so leave it to the scholars. As to the way it helps people on this a board etc...it is questionable.
I guess when you pass another car you don't need blinkers any more either.
The great thing about common courtesy is that it's uncommon..
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-11-12 14:31)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-11-12 15:37
D Dow wrote:
> As to the post..when Tony went after Ken Shaw about a post that
> was over a year old is that a bit much?
Nope. It wasn't an opinion piece, and even if it was, so what? If things have changed in the intervening time it'd be nice to know.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-11-12 15:51
Ken S. writes, "it would be a great pity if we lost his input." Right....
Read a brief bio of Tony and then maybe like most of us you'll welcome his input...opinionated, vulgar, rude, yes, and sometimes wrong as they may be.
http://www.gmn.com/artists/artist.asp?id=1009&bio=true
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-11-12 16:01
But you know, as I look back on my life, I can see times that I got into little disputes like the Pay/Shaw situation. Above all, I'm not shy about expressing my opinion when needed. But you know what, there were time when I wish I had not said some of the things I said.
Conclusion: It's a gift to know when to remain quiet.
HRL
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-11-12 16:22
My thoughts on music and what is important..from my favorite poem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV8AlS1lR4
My favorite music video of all time...
Lord Byron
By the Deep Sea
Oh! that the Desart were my dwelling place,
With one fair Spirit for my minister,
That I might all forget the human race,
And, hating no one, love but only her!
Ye Elements!--in whose ennobling stir
I feel myself exalted--Can ye not
Accord me such a being? Do I err
In deeming such inhabit many a spot?
Though with them to converse can rarely be our lot.
There is a pleasure in the pathless woods,
There is a rapture on the lonely shore,
There is society, where none intrudes,
By the deep Sea, and music in its roar:
I love not Man the less, but Nature more,
From these our interviews, in which I steal
From all I may be, or have been before,
To mingle with the Universe, and feel
What I can ne'er express, yet can not all conceal.
Lord Byron
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-11-12 16:28)
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-11-12 16:50
That's a lovely poem David, but perhaps the attached ditty would reflect some people's feelings on the topic more closely.
http://math.boisestate.edu/GaS/princess_ida/webop/pi_06.html
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-11-12 17:00
I would say you hit the mark...
a few lines from the Byron express much better than anything I can say
"I feel myself exalted--Can ye not
Accord me such a being? Do I err
In deeming such inhabit many a spot?
Though with them to converse can rarely be our lot."
I suppose it may be too metaphysical for some...
http://www.spectrummuse.com/music_metaphysics.htm
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-11-12 17:02)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-12 17:16
David Dow wrote:
<<As to the post..when Tony went after Ken Shaw about a post that was over a year old is that a bit much? Also the post was not even on this board>>
Actually that's not true. The post WAS on this board, and this was a thread that recently reappeared at the top of the list because someone else (not Tony) recently posted a follow-up question on it. That's how Tony happened to see it (and me, too, although I didn't post anything).
Here's the thread, by the way:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=281033&t=280953
So I think everybody just needs to calm down, take a deep breath, play some long tones, etc. Nobody's going through the archives hunting for stuff to shoot people down with. Most of us (Tony Pay included) have much better things to do than sit around and pick fights with people on the Internet.
Also, I'd think we'd all do better to start with the assumption that people have good intentions when they post instead of the other way around. You can prevent a lot of needless bickering that way.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-11-12 18:22
A personal request from me.
Let's stop discussing Tony. He's a valuable member of our community, and I would be very sad if he left.
Tony: Let's please forgive and forget and continue giving our best on the board.
Thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-12 18:47
Old Geezer said "Read a brief bio of Tony and then maybe like most of us you'll welcome his input...opinionated, vulgar, rude, yes, and sometimes wrong as they may be." I find that statement interesting especially, the last seven words, but will not comment on it.
I like Hank Lehrer quote even better "Conclusion: It's a gift to know when to remain quiet."
So my statement about this thread is as follows, ________________________
ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-12 19:29
JUST LET IT REST FOR ****'S SAKE!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-11-12 23:58
Hi Ed,
Thanks. I learned that the hard way from the many times when I should have followed that type wisdom.
HRL
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-11-13 02:11
Back to the issue at hand.. On page one there is reference to undercutting and bore size. It seems as though small bored instruments retain the same O.D.? as large bore instruments and this is the logic behind stating they have more undercutting possibilities? I don't see why a large bore clarinet can't be just as undercut.....just make the OD. larger. I am no doubt a layman here so perhaps my logic is misplaced and I am again an idiot. In other words is it necessary that large bore instruments be thin wall and small bore instruments heavy wall?
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2009-11-13 02:19)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-11-13 02:25
Could we start an undercutting thread again? I think the subject is fascinating.
I have lost the start of this amongst a host of threads, so if someone has the link to the paper in discussion and can post that on a fresh thread, then perhaps we can take it from there?
I have read some documents about Moennig and undercutting. And on this forum have read posts about how undercutting some clarinets can resolve intonation and voicing issues from repairers.
It would be good to look at both the art and the science of it.
Chris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-13 03:25
Personally I dont think we should be "undercutting" anyone. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
PS. Sorry about that, I just couldn't resist it.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-11-13 03:26
thread is up 8 or so threads...mrn
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-11-13 08:39
Good one!
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2009-11-13 17:53
A squib by any other name would smell the same.
Don't shoot until you see the squib of their eyes.
A squib! A squib! My kingdom for a squib.
As for me and my squib, we will serve the lob(ster).
To squib or not to squib, that is the musical question.
Squib, squabbed, squat.
We sit in the circle and wonder why. The squib sits in the middle and demands the reason why.
A squib on a musical score is a squiggly line signifying a slur between two or more notes played on a non-articulated kazoo.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2009-11-13 22:57
As a tennis player, my favorite is, "we will serve the lob(ster)." We can also hope that it squibs and is missed by the opposing player. Nonetheless, I'd rather have lobster than squid, er squib, if it still smells the same.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-14 08:01
Squib in its own ink, anyone?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-11-14 15:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_(explosive)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib
Most of the definitions are pretty funny...
Obviously a squib can be quite dangerous!
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-11-14 15:15)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-14 15:18
I'm pretty sure there used to be a toothpaste brand named Squib in the USA years ago but it may have been spelt slightly different. Are we off topic? Good. ESP
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