 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris22311
Date: 2006-09-11 21:52
What do you guys prefer to use to balance commercial reeds?
Any recommended articles that you know of?
I like to balance the tip and rails, leaving the heart alone. (using a perfectareed)
Don't feel like it's enough! = ?
Chris
Chris
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-12 01:09
Depending on how the reed feels I'll take out cane from any area around the heart. For some reason my reeds mainly require work on the left side (as you look at it, with the tip up and the vamp toward you). I always take some cane off from the flat side with 400 grit wet or dry sandpaper and polish with 600 grit w/d.
For the other side I use a bevel ground knife for everything but the tip and a double hollow ground for the tip (it's the lapsed oboist in me).
I work on my reeds on a 1X3 inch glass "plaque" that I get cut and beveled from 1/4 inch glass stock (by my friendly neighborhood glazier).
I use Vandoren V-12 5-5 1/2 (depending on how much I'm practicing at the time) for my raw material.
I never use reed rushes...they just aren't as consistent as sandpaper or precise as steel.
-Randy
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Author: Chris22311
Date: 2006-09-12 02:47
Aren't the Vandoren V12's more thicker on the right rail?
Those 5s sound awfully hard. Burt Hara supposedly plays on 3.5 blue box
Chris
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-12 03:11
To tell you the truth, it's just what works for me (as far as the V-12's go).
I was taught to play on very hard reeds w/ a somewhat close mouthpiece. They are hard, but I can get a very deep, rich sound with a huge range of dynamics, and an incredible amount of control. The downside is that I do have to work hard for it, but I don't mind. I feel out of control with softer reeds.
Incidentally, I keep my students on a more reasonable set-up (3.5-4). I guess it's "do what I say, not what I do".
-Randy
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-09-12 04:27
Don't overlook the Vandoren glass reed resurfacer and glass adjusting wand. It is a product which can give you excellent control and pinpoint accuracy.
When teaching students how to work on their own reeds, I prefer starting with this product first because it removes very little material with each stroke. Then, when the student gets comfortable and confident I can transition into using reed knives.
A mistake that most beginners often make when using a knife is to take off too much material and/or gouge the surface of the reed.
The glass adjusting wand, which smoothly removes very small increments of material, prevents this from happening...GBK
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Author: Chris22311
Date: 2006-09-12 04:45
GBK, I am with you on that one! I just ordered the resurfacer! Definitely ideal.
I also ordered the Perfectareed and Beyond book by B. Armato.
G/l all with the reed mess!
Chris
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Author: ajhogan
Date: 2006-09-12 05:25
I just started doing work on reeds, and the product that was suggested by my teacher was the Vandoren reed surfacer and wand. Because I am a beginner I have already taken advantage of the accuracy and "soft touch" of the wand. It is a wonderful product.
Austin
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2006-09-12 11:38
Look into the ATG system offered by Tom Ridenour. ATG stands for "against the grain", and it works very well. I use it and a few of my students are using it, too. It's foolproof, and the results are surprisingly good. It comes with a DVD that explains how to use it in detail, and it will definately save some reeds that normally would go in the garbage can.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-09-12 12:24
You are scraping the reeds with a reed knife, and a paring knife will work fine.
I like the thin, spring-steel knives with plastic handles stamped Wusthof.
Very fine (220 grit or finer) sandpaper will also serve.
The specialised reed-working kits are expensive, if marginally better.
Charles Steir and Ben Armato both wrote excellent reed handling guides.
You may consider the Legere synthetic reed heretical, but it needs no adjusting to play well.
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Author: connie
Date: 2006-09-12 15:23
I add my vote for the ATG system. I bought the system at 'Fest last month, and the number of previously horrible reeds that I've now made playable is unbelievable. But a huge part of the system I think is in knowing Mr. Ridenour's system of testing reed balance, which is explained very well on the DVD.
connie
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-09-12 15:51
I'm happy with my ATG system. The DVD is the key --understanding what needs to be done. Having a balanced reed for me makes the altissimo accessible. Maybe when I get better, I'll be able to reach up there with imperfect reeds (as my teacher can), but in the meantime, it is worth the effort to refine the stock reed.
Bob Phillips
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Author: beejay
Date: 2006-09-12 17:24
I too like the Vandoren system, but in fact I do most of my reed adjusting with single-use surgical scalpels that I buy in the pharmacy for about one euro each. Each scalpel lasts quite a few weeks before it loses its edge and they can do extremely fine work.
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2006-09-12 19:55
I must be ancient. I like rush. Doesn't gouge the way a knife does, takes less off at a time than sandpaper (at least that's my experience, but I'll try sandpaper again). The glass reed resurfacer sounds interesting and I'll investigate the ATG system. This is a great site. A veritable fountain of information.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-09-12 20:18
find a library that has The Clarinet (ICA magazine)
look up
"The Reed connection, parts 1 and 2"
by Henry Larsen
part 1 xviii 4, pg 38
part 2 xix 1 pg 22
a lot cheaper than ATG (though, i've heard ATG is great- you could always start off with the Larsen, then go to ATG if you think you need to).
ok the DVD is a very good idea
but try a bit of old fashioned reading first
donald
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-12 21:19
It is possible to use knives without gouging, just tricky. The secret is to keep the knife insanely sharp (when I was an oboist I was taught to sharpen after using each part of the blade once) and to be extremely careful when scraping with the grain. Some people say to avoid this altogether, but I find it useful when working on the tip to sometimes scrape with the grain, using a newly sharpened double hollow ground knife (resembles the old barber's razor).
Again, these techniques are not for the faint of heart and will likely destroy a lot of reeds before it is learned.
Perhaps I will have to try the Ridenour or Vandoren system!
-Randy
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Author: Chris22311
Date: 2006-09-13 03:54
Randy,
did you play on Size 5 Oboe reeds too?
That's a joke
I'm on to you Mister
Chris
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-09-13 16:43
I also love the ATG system. It is true that you could make your
own sanding block and get a sheet of plate glass for far less
money. But the cool thing about buying the demo DVD is that
Tom does a superb job of explaining and demonstrating the
concepts. He explains how a reed works, which surprisingly enough
is not something that a lot of players really have a grasp of. Even
though the same information is written in the accompanying reed
adjusting book, watching that demo DVD makes everything
crystal clear.
I have been using his system for awhile now, but I still sat in on his reed adjusting talk at ClarinetFest 2006. It was VERY well attended, and the room was packed. Tom's method is so easy that anyone can do it, and it is one of those things that makes you wonder why nobody thought of it sooner, because it IS so simple. I recommend it highly, especially for those who are totally new to adjusting reeds!
Post Edited (2006-09-13 16:46)
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-13 19:42
On to me how, Chris? I'm so up front it hurts!
If I remember correctly (and it was a long time ago) I used pretty soft cane and did the scrape where you left bark on the sides and up the middle.
I was also a spectacularly mediocre oboist and as such my oboe advice is worth about half a RICO reed, so I never give any! I played oboe long enough to give me the variety of complexes that oboists develop without actually developing any real facility.
-Randy
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Author: Chris22311
Date: 2006-09-14 02:05
Randy,
All I'm saying is, you lost your credibility *to my eyes* when I saw you post your #5 reeds rock!
send me a recording, I'd love to hear this deep rich sound of yours
Chris
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-14 17:35
My first (and best) teacher came from the Gigliotti line....what can I say?
I'll see what I can do about a recording!
-Randy
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-09-14 17:50
I've used every reed fixing system known to man...but held off on the ATG system; it's rather expensive. But after springing $200 plus for the reed wizard, I thought why not?
I've also got quite a collection of knives etc.
To the point I think the ATG system is super. The CD and book are both interesting. Ol' Tom is quite a pedant but he has hit on something.
You won't believe the reeds it will raise from the dead!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Ed
Date: 2006-09-14 18:14
I will use rush or a reed knife, depending on what work I am doing and where on the reed I need to work. I like using rush for a lot of things. I also sometimes use a set of needle files that I bought in Sears.
One thing that I think is important is to have a system to approach your reeds, which I think is what is great about Tom Ridenour's system. There is a method to go about working about the reeds.
As Donald mentioned, Henry Larsen's articles are excellent. They give you a methodical step by step way to go about your adjustments. You can also find them reprinted in the back of his Book on the 32 Rose Etudes, which can be purchased at http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm. Larsen was my teacher in undergraduate school and I learned a tremendous amount from him.
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Author: Chris22311
Date: 2006-09-14 18:35
Randy,
I'd could list my resume right here. But I don't think your worth it. List me anyone that wins a job with a size 5 reed (even 5.5). Guess amateurs love those sizes huh?
Chris
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-09-14 19:12
Chris22311 wrote:
> Randy,
>
> I'd could list my resume right here. But I don't think
> your worth it.
[ Let's leave the ad hominem attacks out of the response - GBK ]
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2006-09-14 20:46
OK, I took my ATG system to a chamber WW course in France 2 wks ago and was spied perfecting some old reeds I had taken with me. It caused quite a stir and the other 2 amateurs and the 2 respected pros got a few impromptu balancing workshops on bass and sop reeds. Great to be able to contribute to fellow players' knowledge. I found it very interesting that our pros, both fantastic players, during all that training, appeared not to have been exposed to any form of reed balancing as undergradutes.
It opened up their sounds and flexibility wonderfully and they were "proper chuffed". I did then, in a quiet moment, wonder about some music colleges having heads "buried in sand" re treatment of reeds........I assume they deal with reed scraping, rotation, wetting, drying, resting of reeds etc, This usually entails having enormous stocks of reeds in various stages. (The individual coaches of courses will have their own pet reed system).
It also means the almost instantaneous dismissal and discard of reeds (which are wrongly perceived as useless) but which, after little effort may become playable if not "concerto fit". A huge unneccesary financial outlay over a career lifetime therefore ensues. Indeed,I wouldn't like to think how many reeds I've jettisoned in past years but anyway.....Well done Tom Ridenour.
I have found recently that the Vandoren Rue Lepic's seem to require special tip and balancing attention, but when a reed is balanced, wow!
BobT (who is a very happy ATG user and (it seems) unofficial demonstrator however not retained in any way....... but that might be nice)
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-15 04:41
Chris,
I'm sorry you feel the need to insult me. I'm not quite sure what I said to provoke such an unwarranted attack.
I did play professionally for 14 years. On #5 reeds.
I have met other professionals who play on strong reeds, most of whom play on close mouthpieces. None of them use the strength of the reeds as a proof of machismo...it just works for us. An open mind is not a bad thing to have in our profession, and dogmatism will frequently get us in trouble.
-Randy
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-09-15 09:31
Chris- i've generally found reason to agree with you re hard reeds, until i met Phil Green who makes an amazing sound and plays brilliantly in tune as Principal of the NZSO..... playing 4.5 and 5 reeds! i can barely play his setup, but i've never met a musician or "lay person" who doesn't like his sound.
bob49t- i've found that often people who are not used to working on reeds get so used to sacrificing "response" for "resistance" (and the associated/percieved "thickness" in sound) that when they get a well balanced reed they SOUND great on it, but feel like it's not resistant enough and convince themselves that the reed is too soft. That's their choice.
Currently my best reed is a Vand RLPec 4.5 thrown away by another pro player (left at my house in the hurry to get to Clarinetfest 06) that i zapped on the reedual, then did a bit more balancing with Vand reed wand. When i'm playing in Wellington the week after next, i intend to visit her house and plunder the box of throw away reeds next to her piano! There's a gazillion of them.
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: beejay
Date: 2006-09-15 12:15
If you have access to a good library, there is an exhaustive study of reed adjustment -- "A Research Study of a Technique for Adjusting Clarinet Reeds" by Lawrence Intravaia and Robert Resnick in the Journal of Research in Music Education, 16.1 (Spring 1968) The article discusses making a groove across the vamp to improve response, a technique that I had never heard of before.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-15 13:46
beejay,
For those of us who don't have library access.....tell us more about this groove! My interest is piqued.....
-Randy
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-15 13:55
If you scrape and/or sand the whole reed,can you still say it is 5 or 5 1/2
strength? It probably has a strength of smaller number by the time you finish the adjustment.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-15 20:25
>>If you scrape and/or sand the whole reed,can you still say it is 5 or 5 1/2
strength? It probably has a strength of smaller number by the time you finish the adjustment.<<
Probably not.....that's one of the reasons I buy heavy. I'm guessing my reeds probably end up somewhere around what a 4 1/2 would be out of the box (and broken in). 4's out of the box are too soft for my set-up and 4 1/2's don't give me a lot of cane to work with.
-Randy
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Author: beejay
Date: 2006-09-15 21:55
Cuisleannach
The article says that when a groove is cut across the vamp at the fulcrum -- ie where the curve of the mouthpiece begins -- "reeds of slightly stronger strength played by the author showed immediate improvement in response," but grooves cut closer to the reed tip "indicated a change in reed response for the worse."
The article says that cutting a groove across the vamp at the fulcrum produced better results than other known methods of reed adjusting, including scraping. "Reeds which were somewhat dull or a bit too dark in tone were made more flexible and the tone somewhat brighter after the groove was cut in the camp at the fulcrum."
The groove was created by scoring across with a sharp reed knife "very lightly and just deep enough into the cane to cut the fibers of the outer layer." Very strong reeds required heavier scoring.
The method helps the reed bend over the fulcrum and against the mouthpiece more easily, thereby discouraging "tortional vibration" and "improving longitudinal vibration characteristics."
In conclusion, "where reed quality was improved by the groove cut tehnique the reed remained responsive as long as reeds adjusted by any other technique or as responsive as reeds which needed to adjustment at all."
According to the authors, the groove method required no other adjustment other than possible fine tuning with Dutch rush.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-09-16 17:31
Ben Armato mentioned cutting a similar groove across the table of a reed in about the same place.
Nothing new under the sun in working with reeds?!?
Clarinet Redux
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