 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2006-08-03 13:56
I have been collecting clarinets on Ebay for about a year and most of the time, I don't have a problem with Paypal but a couple of weeks ago I made a stupid mistake in judgment and wanted to tell others to be smarter then I was.
I thought that if a seller was selling through Paypal that I was automatically protected up to $1000.00 and found out the hard way that I was not protected. I sent $365.00 via Paypal to a seller in New York for a Selmer BT clarinet with zero feedback and of course once she received my $365.00 I have not heard back from her or received my clarinet. It took me about 2 days to realize that I had been scammed. I got her phone number and talked to her mother and the mother said she doesn't know how to get in touch with her daughter. I filed a claim with Paypal and they said that if they find in my favor that they would try to recover my money, but there is no guarantee. If I can't get my money back through paypal, then the claim is automatically put through to Ebay and I should still get $175.00 back (they have a $200.00 guanantee less $25.00 fee) but I will still lose almost $200.00. What I learned the hard way is that unless a seller actually qualifies for the guanantee, a buyer or a seller is not guananteed a return of their money. So, now I look for the guanantee under the paypal account. If it doesn't say they qualify for the protection plan, then don't spend over $200.00 (Ebay's protection plan). Hope this helps someone to be smarter than I was.
Bonnie Wilber
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2006-08-03 13:59
Bonnie, why do you think many (including me) no longer deal with PayPal?
Bob A
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-08-03 16:02
In my experience, Paypal sucks for the seller, not the buyer. It is the seller who pays all the fees, and the seller who takes the risk of chargebacks, etc. Paypal almost always sides with the buyer in a dispute, and until the dispute is resolved the seller's Paypal account is frozen.
In your case, Bonnie, I found the item you bid on by doing a search for completed items. It looks a little suspicious to me; the date on the photo is Jan 1 2004 (of course the camera date could be set wrong) and the serial number that the seller mentioned is not even a Selmer Paris serial #; looks like she just made something up. You were the only bidder, which might indicate that other potential buyers smelled something fishy and stayed away.
I have filed disputes a couple of times over items that were grossly misrepresented, and both times Paypal refunded 100% of my money. I have never filed a dispute over an "item not received" though, so I am not sure how that works exactly.
I notice it has only been two weeks since the auction ended, so
there is still the chance that is it a valid sale and the seller is just
being slow in shipping. Some sellers do a terrible job of
communicating too. I hope this works out for you!
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-08-03 16:09
Bonnie:
Like Bob, I don't use Pay Pal, but it probably came about for another reason . . . I once tried to sign up with Pay Pal, but had to drop the idea when they asked me for a credit card number. I don't have credit or debit cards.
Anyhoo, I do buy things (mostly band charts/scores for our little community band) on eBay and pay for same with money orders. My purchases are rarely over $20 so I'm not a prime scammer target. In a case like yours where hundreds of $$ are involved I don't have an answer. If you aren't buying something eyeball to eyeball you are out on a limb where the scammer can reach you.
I guess the best thing one can do is get the odds on your side, and a good feedback history at least gives you some assurance that you are dealing with a person who has a decent track record. Of course, that offers no solace at this point.
EuGene
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-03 16:20
Although buying from someone with good feedback and basically seems reliable is not a guarantee that you won't have problems, it is a better chance of dealing with a decent person. I would never buy from someone with no feedback, bad language and typos, suspicious phrasing, etc.
Can't you get your money back through the credit card company insurance? I'm not exactly sure how it works when you use it with Paypal. Is it the same as regular credit card payment?
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-08-03 18:11
I could be wrong, but I think you're in better shape if you use your credit card as the source of funds for the PayPal transaction.
As far as PayPal goes, you can't get around the fact that a lot of buyers like it and use it. If you list an item without a PayPal option, it'll most likely sell for much less than it might have fetched.
In general, I think you're in good shape as far as dispute resolution goes if the clarinet was never received. That's pretty clear cut.
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2006-08-03 18:43
I have been dealing with Ebay/Paypal for over two years, and I have purchased or sold over 200 items. My number one rule is that I rarely deal with first time sellers (10 or less feedback), unless I have made contact with them first with numerous e-mails, and I have their address and phone number. You can also tell a lot by the bidding and $350 for a Selmer BT I think is a little low. I have turned in at least 5 scammers. Usually it is obvious. New seller and or schillers bidding the item up with low or 0 feedback. I always have received a prompt response from ebay. Whether or not you like the rules of ebay or Paypal, the problem is not usually with them but with the crooked buyers and sellers.
When I am selling if the buyer has no feedback or less than 98% they have to check with us before bidding. I don't want to deal with new buyers who may not understand what they are buying and risk negative feedback. A few of the main questions to ask would be, any cracks damage or repairs? Pad and key condition? Serial numbers? Original photos. Why selling? The questions are two-fold. To get an idea of the condition of the horn, but also to start a dialog with the seller. I try to deal with knowledgeable sellers. I always factor in that the horn will have to be re-padded and serviced no matter what they say. I just saw a Leblanc on ebay advertised as good condition. Just from the photos the corks were black and dry and believe it or not the tenon on the barrel end had a hose clamp on it!
We also have a business that has used credit card payments and now Paypal. In the real world the business is the one who pays the fees, and it has been our experience that banks tend to side with the buyer.
Hope this is of some help.
Jim
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-08-03 19:22
There is a verification step in which PayPal establishes the identity of the user through a bank deposit.
This Verification is required for any protections to have teeth.
Bottom line - if either party is unverified, the transaction is without coverage.
Using the credit card company as a backup makes much sense.
For one, I will continue to use PayPal - it's fast and relatively inexpensive.
As to the fees charged - what do you suppose credit card companies charge retailers for the same sort of service? Do you suppose that charge is absorbed by the seller?
Sending a cashier's check or money order offers even less guarantee of compliance on "first dates" with an unknown trading partner.
We could, of course, go back to bartering...
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-08-03 19:48
. . . but, Botch, even if we barter, when I swap some guy a good cow for an old pick'm up truck, how am I to know if he has wrapped the crankshaft mains with pork rind and filled the rear end with sawdust? It sure did run smooth and quiet for a couple days - long enough for the guy to get out of town with my cow!
EuGene
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-08-03 19:54
I agree with susieray that it sucks for the seller, but I'm glad there is some protection out there. No need to rub it in on bw about using a seller with no feedback or track record of any kind. Also, I usually send a couple of emails during the course of the auction to see whether or not the seller is quick to respond and actually seems to know about the instrument and can send a couple of additional, recent photos. Then, if you pay with a credit card (as mentioned above) you still have a bit of a buffer zone against fraud...but not falling for a scam artist in the first place is always the best deal. It can happen to any of us, however, so sorry it happened to you bw.
My son bought a car on eBay that he still hasn't gotten the title for--and the seller has been recently removed from eBay (not a good sign). There's no current phone number and he doesn't reply to emails. Time to contact the attorney general of Ohio (the car came from Cleveland). Meanwhile, he has a 1995 red Land Rover he's got to keep in his driveway with no tags from Texas (our residence). He thought he got a great deal...maybe TOO good a deal.
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Author: lifeforms
Date: 2006-08-03 21:16
It's worth contacting your bank and getting them to do a charge back if you paid via credit or debit card. They should get the cash back, which leaves payapl pissed off because they have to then get it from the Seller. They have much more means to get it back over an individual however.
Also file a fraud report with the police department. Don't sit for it if they say its online they can't do anything about it. Try your local department first.
Also contact ebay as well regarding a non-performing seller alert. Sorry you had to get hit on ebay.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-08-03 22:08
I no longer do PayPal or eBay. I'll not go into details, but my experience with both arms of the company is that they will not, for any reason, give anyone a refund.
jbutler
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