 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 01:55
Today was horrible.. In Wind Ensemble, we had a playing test on the IMEA scale sheet. We had to do the first six lines which are really easy. I made no mistakes at all. The third chair clarinetist made about two mistakes. Even first chair made a mistake.
Yep, the director gave me 3rd chair. The third chair clarinetist got 2nd and the first chair kept first chair.
I was so dumbfounded and shocked.. I didn't swab, I just put my clarinet away and ran out the room.
I can challenge, but not until next week. I also dislike challenges. I have no idea why I lost though. I didn't make any mistakes, my tone is better, etc. I lost by a QUARTER of a point.
Much needed comfort here.
=(
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-11-29 02:00
You should have swabbed.
Better luck next time.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-11-29 02:01
clrnt_squeak wrote:
> Today was horrible.. In Wind Ensemble, we had a playing test on
> the IMEA scale sheet. We had to do the first six lines which
> are really easy. I made no mistakes at all.
Time to ask the director why you ended up in 3rd chair. There must have been something that he/she heard that you didn't.
If there wasn't anything wrong, and the director is just playing favorites, then don't worry about it and play the best you can in the chair you're in. I know it's not a lot of comfort right now - but in the long run it your current placement doesn't mean anything.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 02:02
I know I should have... I swabbed later anyways after jazz band.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 02:04
But third chair has 2nd clarinet parts..
Should I just challenge when I can?
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Author: Drenkier_1
Date: 2005-11-29 02:15
My band director, whom is one of the finest in Texas, as we won the Texas Music Educators Association Honor Band this year and are playing the concert in 2006 at TMEA, plays favorites. He does this because he doesn't want the other players to feel insecure about band, and wants to make sure he keeps them. Mr Dick, my director is one of the finest, and he finds that his system works.
Kevin Collins
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-11-29 02:22
clrnt_squeak wrote:
> Should I just challenge when I can?
Wait a while ... you don't want to get into a constant weekly battle for chair position. Maybe after the Christmas holidays ...
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 02:38
Well, someone told me my director told some people after jazz band (after I left) that he's trying to get more out of me. He's basically trying to get me to unlock the huge amount of potential I have.
I guess he thinks making me prepare for challenges will do that.. although I practice many hours a week.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-29 02:41
Ask first. The answer may well be, "I really just wanted more strength on the 2nd part for the next concert." The answer might also be something about your tone or something else where the two of you need to put your heads together so you can develop a common vision for the clarinet section, just remember that the director is the one with the authority to set the goals. That is how you become a "favorite" in the first place anyway.
All band driectors assess their musicians and like some more than others. Some do it for all the right reasons and favor the consistent, musically mature, will deliver in a pinch, good musical leader kind of person and some have alterior motives.
As mentioned above, asking what you can do to improve your performance in his eyes / what he was looking for that you didn't deliver should earn his respect. If it doesn't, do as mentioned above, just be the best musisican you can.
Also, I hate to have to say it, but there's clearly some animosity between you and the 3rd chair player. You have three choices:
1. You can fume
2. You can challenge and show him/her/it who's boss
3. You can congratulate him/her/it on a good job (this can be tempered with a "But don't think I'm not upping my game next time.")
As your real job is to help the ensemble make great music, 3 is the most constructive approach. You don't want resentment coming between you or your section mates listening to each other carefully and working together as opposed to against each other.
Many directors put chairs 1 2 and maybe 3 in the 1st clarinets and then start stacking the 2nd and 3rd clarinets with good players as much as they can. In some ways its more vital. 1 or 2 good 1st clarinets can cover the high parts for a 100 piece band, but no one 2nd or 3rd clarinet can carry the part.
In a music education setting, there is a great deal of benefit to rotating through different parts. Many college ensembles will get up and re-arrange themselves between pieces.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 02:50
I think my director really wants me to challenge because he said at the end of class that he knows there will be a lot of challenges next week.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-29 02:51
You really really need to ask him yourself.
If that's his answer, I would be tempted to throw it in his face and ask, "How much of a handycap does X get, then?", or "How much better than X do I need to be to beat them?".
However, it would be much much better to ask "So what parts of my playing do you feel are deficient and how can we work towards improving them?" In and of itself, that and the ensuing conversation should mollify him.
Honestly, I have seen people (I have been, too) compacent when there were no real challengers in my section, and I'm sure he really wants to see you realize your potential. Though it seems unfair, I can't think of a better way to push someone in your situation either.
Honestly, you should be aiming for 1st chair, you just need to get on the same page with the 1st chair player so that he/she/it knows that its you aiming for a goal and not them.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 02:57
I honestly want 1st chair. That will be my goal for the year.
I will ask him (my director) what I could have done better on the test. I don't want to sound harsh and act like I don't like him, that certainly won't help me.
After analysing it for a bit I guess his intentions are good and I don't mind at all if it will help me in the long run.
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Author: Scotti
Date: 2005-11-29 03:04
Be careful of what you don't know.
I think asking the director might prove helpful. When I went through a similar situation in high school, I took my director up on a long-standing offer to go over the results. In my case, this was a taped audition (which I still don't agree with), but I felt sure that my tone was better, I had better technique, etc.... Going over the audition, I actually learned quite a bit about performance that I never even considered. And it wasn't as if I had a bad teacher. There were just things that I personally didn't even look for that are very important.
My biggest mistake was having a sense of entitlement and thinking I was the best. While this may have been the case in the larger picture, it held me back. I didn't finish high school as the first chair, but I can honestly say it didn't matter to me at that point. I was already looking towards college. If you're curious, I have enjoyed quite a bit of success since then.
So what does this story mean for you? Don't assume you know it all at this stage. You may need to work on some things. The worst thing you can do is just think that he's trying to challenge you because that's like throwing the entire audition out the window and just saying you're better. Go out and prove it!
For what it's worth, your competitiveness is admirable. Don't ever lose that, but remember there's a long way to go.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 03:23
Thanks for an inspiring post, Scotti. You make some excellent points. I'm just going to ask him tomorrow what I need to work on, what I did wrong, and basically why I lost my chair. I'll report back here what he tells me.
Thanks for all the responses.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2005-11-29 03:36
Never assume bias. When I was in high school, I did, which was a mistake. If I had thought it through, I would have used the situation to push myself. There were some things in the other student's playing that were better than mine. What I should have done, and what I think you should do, is to improve on the things the teacher tells you to improve. A note-perfect audition isn't necessarily a good audition. You have to be in tune, with a nice sound, solid rhythm, an even technique, and make beautiful music. I'm grateful to my teachers for not putting me first, and I'm grateful to my classmates who played as well or better than me, because if they didn't push me, I don't think I would have a full-time playing job today.
Chris
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-11-29 03:45
From your first post, clrnt_squeak, you mentioned that you made NO mistakes and that the 1st and 3rd chair players MADE mistakes. So, to me that means either your director knows of something(s) you don't or that you didn't critique yourself the same as you did your peers (perphaps like countless others, you accepted your performance and nit-picked theirs. I've done that too and anyone who didn't admit to it would of course be lying). So I'd say consult with your director about things he listens for and ways to improve your playing. By all means do the chair-test. It's a right, and you shouldn't shy away from re-conquering your chair. Practice hard, and kick some butt!! Good Luck!!!
Clayton
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-29 04:17
And worst comes to worst, if you can't figure it out or move up, just remember that this level is not the "end all" of clarinetting. There are going to be other directors, other opportunities, so by ALL means, WHATEVER the verdict/reason, don't be discouraged and keep practicing so that next time you're in a similar position, you're that much better off.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-11-29 04:26
"perphaps like countless others, you accepted your performance and nit-picked theirs. I've done that too and anyone who didn't admit to it would of course be lying"
Isn't it the other way around? I know for me it is. I nit-pick (as you say, I don't know this word) my mistakes much more, and forgive others' mistakes much easier.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-11-29 15:27
clrnt_squeak -
If you got all the notes and your tone was good, you need to look for other problems. The two big ones you should think about are intonation and rhythm.
Work with a tuner. Don't watch it much as you play. Just listen hard and stop on random notes to check. Sit in front of a piano, play an interval there and then on the clarinet, to get the exact sound in your ear.
Practice the IMEA scale sheet with a metronome. Are there places where you get ahead or fall behind? If so, that could easily have cost you points.
When you get the scales smooth, try them without a metronome. Then go back and try them with. Keep working until you get the metronome inside your head.
If there are rests, or pauses between sections, count extra-hard. More mistakes are made on rests than on notes.
Playing evenly is not easy. On some intervals, you move just one finger. On others, you move nine. To even them out, work on each one individually, using the method I described at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=24907&t=24731 in the section "Evening Out the Changes."
Keep at it. And by all means challenge back, as soon and as often as possible. Life is a series of challenges. The more you meet them, the better you get at it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-11-29 19:35
I can vouch for Ken's post. I was moved down a few spots in my wind ensemble for being sharp. I may have had better tone, but if the intonation is worse than someone else, then it's going to be harder to blend in and sound like a section. As a result I got a longer barrel and problem solved. Now I'm poised for when we reaudition (next fall) to get a higher chair.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-29 19:51
You don't need comfort it won't get you anywhere. Quit crying and practice.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-11-29 20:56
Thanks for all the responses.. I thought it through and I'm perfectly fine now. I'm just going to challenge as soon as I can, which is Monday.
My director talked to us today and he said that he wants competition because it causes you to practice more and such.
I just took it badly.. this happened with almost all the sections as well.
Thanks again.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-29 21:07
I would ask first if there's anything you need to work on. Then you can work on it, challenge, and KNOW you're going to beat that person. What's the point of doing it again, if you could be doing it wrong again (especially if you don't KNOW what was wrong the last time)?
And if he/she says nothing was wrong with it, ask what the other person did BETTER so that you can work to get that better.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-11-30 07:21
"Then you can work on it, challenge, and KNOW you're going to beat that person."
You never know.
EEBaum is right, and usually the other mistakes are the ones the player don't know about. From my experience most people that are out of rhythm/tempo don't know they are....
Post Edited (2005-11-30 07:22)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-11-30 16:00
Talk to your director. You need to establish a relationship with him/her anyway on some level. I always found that communication helped clear the air so I could improve without additional emotional baggage that can cripple one as an artist. Ask your director to critique your last play-test. Ask for more info on whether or not he/she likes your tone, method, technical skills, etc. If he/she is unwilling to discuss this, don't worry about it and keep striving after your own personal goals. You may have to wait a few weeks to challenge again, but be sure you've had that conversation with the director first so there are no added misunderstandings that will actually hinder your goal of becoming first chair. If the director sees you as someone who will have a chip on their shoulder you may kiss good-bye any hopes of being first chair. First chair is an honored position that often goes to players who are not necessarilary technically excellent, but often great leaders with great attitudes. You're only half-way through the year, you have a lot of time.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-11-30 16:55
Look at this not in terms of chairs and who "wins" but as an opportunity to improve and mature.
When I was in youth symphony the flutes challenged each other every single month for months on end. I thought it was a little odd. As others have said, in a school setting there is more to a decision of whom to make principal than a single playing test. I waited until after the first concert to do anything, and even then we put it off once because the other player was having some significant difficulty with her horn that day and the director thought it would be more fair to wait.
The approach a student takes in a situation like this can be just as important as how he or she plays when chair auditions or challenges come up.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-12-02 03:08
Okay, I talked to him. He said challenges start next week (Monday). He said the challenge will only consist of one scale and a part from one of the pieces we're playing for our January concert.
He said my tone was tight in the altissimo range, this was because of the reed I was using. I also made an "unnecessary" pause. That pretty much is why I got third chair.
I'm going to practice this weekend and challenge on Monday. I'll let everyone know what happens.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-02 15:10
Good luck, I'm sure there are several of us that will be pulling for you.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-12-02 21:10
Thanks for the support.
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2005-12-02 22:04
Don't worry about it. I'm a freshman at my school and I'm 3rd out of all the clarinets in my school including wind ensemble and my school has the best director for miles and some of the best musicians. I'm not in wind ensemble cus my schedule wouldnt let me so im in concert band. we had a scales test the other day and the same thing happened to me except i didnt loose my chair. 5 other clarinets that im beating on our scale test series (12 major scales) ended up getting better scores then me and I;m beating them by 100 points. Personally i think that all directors play favorites because they dont want the morale of other kids to go down and i sorta just get frustrated cus of that. but its all good because ill get high chairs at all district and all state auditions. hope you become 1st chair!
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Author: ClarinetRepublican
Date: 2005-12-03 05:36
I don't get its, it's high school band. Don't they usually stink anyway? Doesn't it matter if it were say, an allstate honors band audition?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-12-03 07:02
I quite prefer how our university's wind symphony runs challenges... once, at the start of the school year the challenger and challengee play in a side room where nobody can see them. Then the first chair players of all the instruments in the ensemble vote. Clear majority wins, ties or near ties go to the person who currently has the chair.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-03 11:40
That's pretty cool, Alex.
I will say, though that not all high school bands stink. There are pockets in the nation where the level of competition is fierce and this breeds a culture of excellence. Obviously these bands emphasize precise execution over mature musicianship, but what they can pull off is no laughing matter.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-03 13:30
Challenges, in High School? He's not even treating you like PROFESSIONALS. If you think for one second that he's getting your full potential out of you by playing a political game in front of the entire band, you're wrong. All bands are political. The good ones are political behind closed doors. Period. You need to speak to your director and inform him that if he thinks he's doing well by you to treat you like garbage, in front of the whole group, he's dead wrong. I had this experience with my college band director. It didn't work on me either. The real problem with your Director's behavior is not that other people don't do that kind of stuff. The problem is that he acts unprofessionally in front of his students. Keep that in mind.
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Author: Jamies
Date: 2005-12-03 13:57
I am in high school too and am the very last "chair", as you call it. I didn't get a chance to audition or anything. It doesn't matter whether or not I can play better or worse. According to the school rules, I shouldn't even be in the band and according to the other school rule, I cannot play anything above the last clarinet part because I'm not even supposed to be in the band. Music is supposed to be about music. At the hands of a really good conductor, everyone feels energized and excited about music no matter where they sit. The idea is to make music. Unfortunately, it is mostly up to the teacher to create a musical environment, and most chose to create a tense, competetive atmosphere thinking that it will encourage students to work harder. It does, but it is followed to a greater feeling of failure among the students. Music is not a war, its about working together.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-12-03 15:13
Thanks everyone!
I agree, he's creating wars within sections! Not good. In the flute section we've had about 5 challenges this year.
Challenges AND tests are played in front of everyone. This definitely manipulates the results due to nervousness, etc.
I agree with EEBaum, if I lost by only 1/4 of a point and I'm already 2nd chair.. I should be given the benefit of the doubt.
PLUS, he said he knows that I'm much better player than the one that took my seat; he said I'm an actual musician and she's just a technician. Aren't bands supposed to consist of musicians?
Thanks again fot all the responses. =)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-12-03 17:28
What really gets me upset is people's obsession with being at a higher chair. My director always makes a point that the first chair first, first chair second, and first chair third are where he needs stable players. Really, though, all the spots matter. It is FAR too often that I hear an ensemble with really loud players on first, and third parts that are never heard. In this particular ensemble, where I'm now at the top of the seconds, I think I was most effective as the second person on third part.
It's a matter of treating all members of the ensemble as valued where they are, rather than all members of the ensemble as "on their way to first chair."
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-03 21:17
If I read your post correctly, your director is discussing other students with you privately. That is BEYOND unprofessional. You need to talk to your parents, who need to talk to your director. Not about your chair placement.....but about how he handles his students. He has no business telling you the other person is a "technician" and you're a "musician". What do you think he says to her behind your back? Think about that.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-03 21:58
Directors are just people too and unfortunately some of them are insensitive to say the least.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-03 23:01
My lil' sis's HS orchestra director has plenty of musical talent, but is an absloute disaster at making his best players feel valued and happy.
Has anyone heard of a high school program where people essentially get "checked out" to play a 2nd or 1st part and then would compete for solos as they come up? (Behind a curtain but in front of the seciton in a secional would be a great place to do it.) Of the pool of people checked out for whatever part, you'd rotate from concert to concert. (You can't rotate piece to piece for most concert contests AFAIK.) The number of certifications you have would have a small effect on your grade (a 3rd clarinet could still get an A, but it would be a little harder).
Similarly, has anyone heard of a HS program where a special meeting is held with the director, section by section, at an unusual time, where the seating for the contest concerts is discussed, and the pros and cons of each player is discussed openly? I know high schools can be mean, but what would be the downside of lots of open peer review?
In college, its common for groups to get a pool of points and be primarily responsible for doling them out to the group in some way (with teacher review of course). Are there legal issues with doing this in public schools? Even simply letting secion mates rate each other in terms of technical skill, muscaliity, musical leadership, contribution to section, etc. might be very useful. (Surveys to be kept private, of course.)
If you measure it, people will care about it. The acquisiton of leadership skills is one of high school band's primary benefits to students. Having some feedback on the process would probably help on net - as long as a high school back stab couldn't actually draw blood.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-12-03 23:31
The way my HS instructor did it (IMO a FANTASTIC woodwind doubler with clarinet as his primary) would have us pick random numbers out of a hat. Then he'd tell us not to speak during the evaluation. And then he'd turn his back in the front of the room, have us a few rows back, and say, "#1. Please play _ scale, _ scale, and _scale" After that, he'd write a score. Then, "Please play bars __ through __" of our selection piece (almost ALWAYS the same piece that would be used for district/area/region/state band auditions that year.
After all people played, he would tally scores, read off the seating order (by saying the person's #) and then find out himself who did the best and who did the worst.
Sounded pretty fair to me.
Alexi
PS - BTW, don't get so absorbed with seating arrangements. You're in high school and as Mark C. said in his first response, in the long run it doesn't mean anything. Not at this level.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: nodoubt717
Date: 2005-12-04 05:52
I was in a similar situation as you when I was in high school. I had first chair and lost it a year later to someone who was in third chair the year before. Yeah, I was angry, humbled, and I threatened to challenge all the time. However, I realized that my chair displacement would be a good way to prove myself, again. I practiced all the time, tutored other students, and became more active in my school band and other bands outside of school. Doing this gave me a great sense of worth and the ability to help others at the same time. Most importantly, I didn't need first chair to feel important or valued. My suggestion to you is to go for first chair. I'm pulling for you. However please be aware there is so much more to music than chairs and first parts. Be proud that you are the player that you are, not a lot of people can do what you do and share your gift with anyone who is interested. You'll find this will give more pleasure than any chair can. Besides, all of your hard work will pay off in the future. You'll have that first chair in no time. Good Luck to you!
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Author: billsheasf
Date: 2005-12-04 20:02
There is a wonderful book called The Four Agreements. I can never remember rules # 1 and # 4 but here are the two I never forget that may be relevant to you. Rule # 3: Don't take it personal. Apply this not only to your Clarinet playing but to all your life's happenings and you'll be a more content human being. Rule # 3: Don't make assumptions. Instead of assuming something, speculating why you lost your chair or hearing from others why you lost it, as someone else suggested, speak directly with the Director. Don't be threatening. Don't be arrogant. Tell him you'd like to make the loss of the chair a learning experience, ask for specifics as to what you should have done differently (that's not the same as asking what you did "wrong") and solicit suggestions as to how you can address what he tells you. In a few years when you're soloist with the Chicago Symphony, you'll look back on this episode and be grateful to the Director and what you learned from him. That's why even the Masters continue to have tutors, teachers, conductors and directors. Good luck!
Post Edited (2005-12-04 20:05)
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-04 23:06
Unprofessional behavior such as what has been outlined here is not acceptable. No, you shouldn't take it personally, but you just can't allow your director to act in an unprofessional manner. Ever. Think of it this way. When you're a killer Band Director, you'll remember how NOT to treat your students from this experience.
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-12-04 23:55
Thanks guys! I thought his behavior in these playing tests was somewhat bad. IMO, there shouldn't be multiple CHAIR-PLACEMENT tests a year. Just one at the beginning of the year should suffice.
It's not all about playing second part, if I would have played second part from the beginning I wouldn't have a problem. Last year, I played second part all year (I was fourth chair). The problem is that I spent hours upon hours of my free time practicing to master my parts, going down a chair/part because of a measly 1/4 of a point wastes all that effort. I have to spend more hours mastering the second part.
ANOTHER thing is that makes me mad is that he never told us how he grades these tests; he doesn't tell us exactly what to prepare for, just what we have to play.
Hopefully I'll win my challenge tomorrow and end all this madness.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-12-05 13:11
This all crazy. It must be very difficult for you. What can I say?...
1. These sort of bands are crazy places. Don't take it too personally. I'm sure most people posting here can relate similar experiences. It's only human to feel like that.
2. Sometimes it's a difficult decision for the conductor, too.
3. You're still playing, right? So make your part as good as you can. If you think you can match the tone/technique of the First part, then match it. Three-part harmony needs three parts.
4. Some places are too competitive for their own good. It's about the music, right?
5. Most places I've played, the clarinet section have stuck together like glue. Don't buck the trend. Perhaps today you're sitting by someone who's stuggling with the part. That's an opportunity to help them.
6. If you need an outlet for your skills, see if you can get a quartet together. Small ensembles teach you things you won't learn solo or in band.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-12-05 14:22
And one more thing:
7. Being principal should be a scary, exposed place to be. You should imagine yourself to be constantly under threat of losing your place. You should be constantly pushing yourself to set an example for the entire ensemble. Simultaneously, your aim should be that all players in your section play at least as well as you. This is all part of leading a section. If you want your place back, this is part-and-parcel of the deal.
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Author: billsheasf
Date: 2005-12-05 18:01
This post is not directed to clrnt_squeak but rather to all the advice givers who themselves sound angry (perhaps reliving their own past frustrations) and describe the testing atmosphere and the director as unacceptable, unprofessional, etc. Anyone who wants unconditional love should buy a puppy. They definitely should not pick up a musical instrument (clarinet or otherwise) and enter a competitive environment. Orchestras, marching bands et al are quite Darwinian . . . survival of the fittest. The fittest are identified through tests and challenges and that is what creates excellence.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-12-05 22:42
Achtung!
<<Orchestras, marching bands et al are quite Darwinian . . . survival of the fittest. The fittest are identified through tests and challenges and that is what creates excellence.>>
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Author: clrnt_squeak
Date: 2005-12-06 00:21
I challenged her today and I won!
Everyone said it was quite obvious I did. Well, I'm happy and this whole mess is over with.
Thanks again!
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Author: Grant
Date: 2005-12-06 00:37
Congratulations.
Remeber music may be competitive but it needs to be co-operative too or no ensembles.
Peace on Earth and May You always have a reed that PLAYS.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-12-06 01:50
That's why there are challenges (in an ideal magical world)... to iron out the kinks from the initial auditions.
<<The fittest are identified through tests and challenges and that is what creates excellence.>>
Technical excellence, perhaps. In some cases.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-12-06 02:04
This thread has now reached its conclusion.
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The Clarinet Pages
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