 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClarinetConnoisseur
Date: 2005-05-30 22:52
Just curious....
Has anyone had any clarinet-related injuries? After practicing for eight hours straight (no breaks), my right wrist felt severely sprained, or something to that degree. Has this happened to anyone else, and if so, is there a solution for this? I was also wondering what the weirdest injury anyone has received from playing clarinet. Please post!
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-05-30 23:01
I use to strain my neck muscles when I played and so the day of contest, it hurt me to sing my vocal solo and it hurt to play my clarinet. It felt like a horrible sore throat/swollen gland.
Yeah, I notice that my wrist hurts after practicing for over 2 hours with no break. Check out the Ton Kooiman thumb rest, it's supposed to relieve wrist pain and help the player have a proper hand position. Another solution is very simple and is free: TAKE A BREAK! Practice for say 1-2 hours, go and relax and do stuff that isn't practicing for a few hours and then go back to practicing. That's what I do...
Why were you practicing for 8 hours straight with no break? Isn't there this concept called eating and a place called the bathroom?
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Author: ClarinetConnoisseur
Date: 2005-05-30 23:10
Eating.....bathroom.....????? What are these things which you speak of? No, I'm just kidding! Clarinet is my life (I'm serious, I don't have any other hobbies besides playing clarinet!), and I just love playing it! It was before some contest, although I forget which one.... I often practice, and I lose track of time, so I'll come out of my practice room and it'll be dark! I've started taking more breaks, because after that "incident", I had to wear a wrist brace for a few weeks, and everyone thought that I had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I saw these gloves in a catalogue that had heating in them, and it supposedly soothed aching muscles. I'll have to look into those. Can you actually get Carpal Tunnel Syndrome by practicing too much? That's an incentive to take more breaks!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-30 23:10
A player I was good friends with in College came down with sudden Tendonitis (inner elbow) from practicing for 5 hours.
Don't practice for more than 3 hours without a break under any circumstance. Even breaking every hour is a very good thing. You are "asking for injury" if you practice without taking breaks.
Consider getting a neckstrap (BG makes a very good one) to reduce the weight of the instrument if it's your right hand that is sore.
And if your hand hurts for another few days, by all means see a Doctor about it!!! They can diagnose and treat to prevent further damage - that can sideline you for MONTHS.
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-30 23:34
Not only wrist injuries...but you can seriously damage your lips.
When she was a student, a former teacher of mine...a serious pedagogue in her day...had just switched to double lip. Straight off she practiced 4 hours standing up...within a week she had developed some sort of blood blister in her upperlip that sidelined her for a while. For over 20 years it was painful, but getting this damaged tissue removed might sever nerves. So, she never had surgery and to this day she still has this droopy part to the middle of her upper lip.
The weirdest things can happen to your body if you over practice...its no different than an athlete over training.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-30 23:44
Jeez, she probably looks like a collagen disaster. Nowadays women are paying $$ to get big lips, we get em for free!!
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Author: ClarinetConnoisseur
Date: 2005-05-31 00:54
I'll look into getting a neckstrap and/or thumbrest. I'd probably benefit from them immensely! I should consider myself lucky not to have a very serious injury. I suppose all artists must suffer for their art....... But none should be TOO serious!
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Author: MSK
Date: 2005-05-31 01:22
My weirdest injury was a sprained right pinky from playing too much pinky work on my A clarinet -- my hands are small & it is an awkward reach for me on the A (no problem on the Bb).
My most common injury is that I always end up with neck pain when dress rehersal and concert are the same afternoon. I have to look up to much to see the conductor
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-05-31 01:35
I've been stung by springs twice. Once I got a small infection from this.
Once I hit the eye with the mouthpiece and was in agony and tears for about an hour.
One time during practicing I hit the music stand hard with the bell . The clarinet popped out from the mouth and I bit my lip. My friend who saw this almost wet himself.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-05-31 01:44)
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Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2005-05-31 01:44
Playing for eight straight hours with no breaks, if true, is silly. What do you use, a rubber band or a cloths pen?
Do not let your resent success in prison you in a practice room.
To know how to do just one thing very well is not enough in todays and tomorrows world.
Do not be a shooting star, burning bright for a few seconds never to be seen or heard of again.
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-05-31 06:02
I once mashed my toe with the contra once. That's about as far as it went.
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2005-05-31 06:20
My bottom lip swelled to twice its size from practicing not long ago...
and injury to my clothing and not to me...playing bari sax in a nice black skirt which got a screw caught it in and put a run in the upper layer of skirt...i was sad :(
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-05-31 06:30
I'm recovering from tendonitis right now at the tender age of 24, taking two months off the clarinet. It was a combination of too much clarinetting, poor posture, lots of computer, moving in funky directions, and an enormous amount of stress. I just laughed off days where I would be playing on and off from 9:30 AM until 7PM. That is a Very Bad Thing (tm).
It sucks. Don't let it happen to you.
What I'm doing now that would have prevented the injury if I'd started earlier: Be sure to stretch before you play. Use a neckstrap, especially while woodshedding. Take significant breaks, at least once an hour. Relax when you play (this can be hard). Sit up with proper low-impact posture. Do active non-clarinet things. If you find yourself in too many rehearsals and practicing too long consecutively, drop a commitment: better to do one less thing now voluntarily than a lot less later forcibly.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-05-31 20:11
I played so much in college that I ended up having to have surgery on the base of my right thumb 20 years later. It was very swollen and very painful. If it doesn't get you now.....it will get you later. As you age, your joints are much less forgiving of what you did to them in your youth. Just watch any ex-football player walk. Their knees are usually shot. Don't be stupid. Take care of yourself unless you're into pain somehow.
Weird injury,
not really weird but fun.
I got hit in the mouth with a softball and couldn't play clarinet for two weeks. I got a huge fat lip and cut. College prof. REALLY mad!!!!!!!!! He asked me what in the world I was doing playing softball. Ha! I guess he had no other life and expected me to have no other life either. No Way!!
Take care of yourself and learn the word.....Moderation!
Rebecca
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2005-05-31 20:22
I have lip problems, lower lip. But I haven't practiced for over a week now and it's starting to settle down and look normal again.
I also get a painful right thumb from too much practicing. I feel like I will drop the horn if I'm not careful.
Left little pinky finger tingles, no big deal, but it's noticeable.
But, nothing stops me. I got some cover-up makeup for the lip problem.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-31 20:31
Rebecca - I take it you had Dequervain's Syndrome? That's a type of tendomitis which occurs at the base of the thumb known as "the snuff box".
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-05-31 21:03
Soar lip causes a bad playing overall not only soar lip, in my
opinion. No matter what I have good reeds, good mouthpiece, or any
good equipment, it is impossible to make a good sound with soar lip.
The sound becomes harsh and distorted.
Learn a good style of playing.
The good sound has to do with embouchure, oral cavity, tongue
position, and style of playing (I know this one is little
controversial......).
I know this is tough.
Hours and hours of playing having no break......and pain on right
arm. I assume that there is tension taling place in your body. I
might not be only about your right arm. I recently find that the
physical tension is the most negative factor on playing clarinet. So, I practice scales and arpeggios, trills and etudes. Reviewing funadation again.
I have an experience of playing in both opera orchestra and symphony
orchestra, and wind ensemble, all sorts of groups in school. My
schedule was just too much for me, but I did all of rehearsals and
concerts. It was very tough, yes. After those busy schedule, I found
that I could never play well at all, in terms of both making a good
sound and playing good technique. Seemed like I lost everything to
play clarinet. I had to work on fundamental issues to get recovered.
Save your body and lip. This is only I can say to you. My friend
says that neck strap helps. I think that teeth guard like piece of
sport tape on lower teeth helps to avoid soar lip. Otherwise, try
not to play too much and try to save yourself.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-31 21:11
The performance of my Brahms Trio on download.com's music website was played with a lip which was so sore that when I put the reed to my mouth the pain was very intense - then it went numb.
Didn't affect my tone at all, just the pain level.
Ricardo Morales's Mozart Concerto Phila Orch performances were done with his lip split.
It can be done, but is never fun.
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Author: D
Date: 2005-05-31 21:50
I accidentally touched the very tip of my tongue to the tip of the reed. That was horrid. My tongue hurt for hours and my head felt all buzzy for the rest of the day.
And does anyone else find their lip gets stuck to the reed by the end of a long piece on a hot day......also painful.
D
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-05-31 23:13
David,
I don't recall the surgeon ever mentioning the name of the condition I had. He told me it was from extreme overusage and didn't see it very often. I told him I was a clarinet player and he immediately knew what I had. He had to go in at the crease in the skin on the base of my thumb and take some of the hardened boney type stuff off. It was swelling, turning red and hurting prior to the surgery but I don't feel much of anything now. If I overuse it I sure know it. When I first started back into playing after a long (20 year) break, I played too long. I now moderate and play only 2 hours at a time. Too old to play like a kid anymore.
I will research this Dequervain's syndrome you speak of and see if that sounds like what I had.
D,
I don't understand.........how do you tongue if you aren't putting your tongue on the tip of the reed.....or at least close??????
Rebecca
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-01 00:03
DavidBlumberg,
I just listened to the Brahms Trio which you played. I love your sound and musical approach. Does not seem like playing with soar lip at all!!
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-06-01 01:52
No danger of over practice here.
I got a lip splinter once. Ouch.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-01 02:04
Thanks! Yes, it was from playing about 10 hours a day which at that time I wasn't used to. Didn't use any cigarette paper, wax etc. as didn't want to loose any sensitivity and bite too much.
But then again, numbness is pretty non-sensitive......
http://download.com/davidblumberg is the page. Nothing is for sale there (free downloads and no registration)
Post Edited (2005-06-01 02:33)
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Author: chito
Date: 2005-06-01 03:29
Has anyone had any clarinet-related injuries?
Hi my name is chito i have also the same problem with you specially my
4th and 5th fingers cannot move well im to worriying about this.
2 months ago i had suffered for this strained i went in different hospital and theraphist but they cannot help me because they do not know the problem they ask many question and check my body but the result is nothing and its cost too much money for me. How ever i tried to find different teaher of clarinet to get some advise and information they help me alot. Before when my fingers move well i practised almost every day i work hard because i thaught this only the way to become good clarinet player and i thougt when you practised a lot you can do anything in your performance because you are prepared . But recently i fill change on my body may be i got trauma until now .One thing i can suggest if you want to do something in your practise maybe you should balance your self and try to exercise or warm up your body this is very important always think if you can' t make dont pushed tohard because this will make you stress and fatigue .Also if you want to practise more just break every 15 minutes and i think 3 hours is the best time if you will concentrate you can do any thing and try to find good teacher they can help you alot. thank you .
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Author: chito
Date: 2005-06-01 03:48
Soar lip causes a bad playing and body fatigue make stress .This is important things to remember too much practise is caust a lot of problem specially before the perfomance .Maybe should try to do something not only clarinet you should study score analyse the music or study rythm it is important . Also i read ton koimann can help in clar. I bought this thumb rest but they cannot help me because its to complicated in Bb and A clar and this another problem but if you will try to check your body posture and always release tension maybe wil help you alot.
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-01 04:36
Biting easily causes soar lip. Sounds too simple, but I recently found this problem on my playing.....again. My embouchure is getting better and better with slow progress in several years as my teachers notice, but I tend to bite little too much when I have too much schedule booked.
So, I am now practicing not to do this any more......relax, play, work on finger and embouchure. Seems like I am revewing what I was taught at my freshman year at college, but this review changes the whole world. Thank you, my teachers.
Before the college, I was taught the "smiling" embouchure which involves biting. Then as I had the first lesson with professor at college, I was taught a different embouchure which does not involve biting at all......at the very first lesson! This was one of the turning points in the process of developing my clarinet playing.
DavidBlumberg sounds so beautiful on the Brahms even with soar lip because he did not "bite too much." It that correct??
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-01 15:27
David,
The Brahms sounds great.
I don't know how you can play for 10 hours with a numb/sore lip. I get such a sore lip when I play that I have to use the "Lip Ease". I don't know if this is because I am biting so much as it is that I have very faceted lower teeth and they tend to cut into my lip like a razor. My lower lip looks like hamburger after more than 2 hours.
FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!
The Lip Ease helps but I get the feeling from other players that this is some sort of cop out and I should be able to endure the pain. I can't keep playing with my lip like that though. I've heard of double lip technique but I don't think I can do it. I'm not sure it would help my lower lip any way.
Any advice on this kind of injury? It is very limiting once the skin is actually broken and swollen.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-01 16:27
Correct, no biting. My tone has everything to do with concept - how the mouth from the outside in is shaped when playing. The mouthpiece, reed, clarinet, ligature facilitate it, but it basically all comes down to the concept of tone that a player is striving for and accepting.
It's almost all made before it hits the Clarinet Mouthpiece.
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-01 16:52
RC, you wanted to know about how I tongue.
Well normally I touch the reed tip with the area just before the very tip of my tongue, as I painfully discovered, this area is less sensitive. I am sure there are people who can touch the very tip of their tongue to the reed, but I am not one of them.
For the Star Wars geeks - That scene in Episode 1 where Ja Ja Binks sticks his head in the beam on Anakin's pod racer and his head goes all buzzy........that was me when I used the tip of my tongue. Only hopefully slightly less annoying than Ja Ja.
D
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-01 17:48
DavidBlumberg,
Thank you for your reply. I will work on my embouchure with no biting.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-01 18:51
David,
I am working on the very concept you describe and understand fully that that tone that one wants to generate comes from a concept in the mind. I am doing this on a daily basis with long tones and as I work my daily scales.
My problem comes from playing beyond this time. Our orchestra rehearsals are 2 hours long and that doesn't include the warm up and tuning of both instruments. It's usually 2 1/2 hours + we sometimes work our trio after orchestra. Not often, but when that happens I end up injuring my lip. This is the part I am having a hard time with. I am then in a situation where I am working with a very sore lip and any practice in the following days in very painful. That's where I end up using the Lip Ease. It's just an easy solution to my problem. Any suggestions here?
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-01 23:02
Carrie,
It hurts!!!!!!!!
No really, I think I started biting too much when I started back to playing just to get the sound I was used to getting when I was playing in college. I compensated in a very wrong way. I am working to change this but it is a slow process. When I'm biting my lower lip has a clear line across the inside surface where my lower teeth cut through. Too much time like this and the line turns into a cut. OUCH!!
As far as what it sounds like..........I don't know if I can describe it. I know I think I'm controlling my tone/sound by doing this but in reality it's causing a problem with my sound. I can get a beautiful sound/tone but I can't seem to play with it for very long. As long as I'm thinking about it I do things right. It's just when I lose my focus and start getting tired that I notice the biting.
The top of the mouthpiece will eventually show this. Two distict teeth marks will appear and you will know you're biting. One of my older mpcs. has really distinct marks on it. I like the patches to save my newer mpcs. but I know I still have a problem. The lower lip don't lie!
Thanks for any helpful hints anyone can give,
Rebecca
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-01 23:53
It's also a question of how hard a reed you play and the pressure to get it to vibrate at it's optimum. I strive for a Dark yet Vibrant sound. The mp3 file doesn't do much justice as it wasn't professionally recorded and is a 2nd generation copy. A reed which is "too soft" will flatten the pitch, and you won't do well with high notes. One which is "too hard" will be harder to blow thus having to greatly increase the mouth pressure. The pitch will be good, but the tone will suffer. A teacher can help you with finding what strength is right for you.
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-02 00:16
I have no problem with reed strength at all. My teacher says that I am fine with reeds. To me, the problem is getting used to the performance circumstances and dealing with fatigue. I need more experience to play in orchestra and do chamber music to find the ultimate sounding embouchure.
No biting is the big hint for me.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-02 03:59
So, when I started out I used to roll my bottom lip over my bottom teeth a lot. I also had teeth marks in my mp-this made my bottom lip hurt a lot but never to the point of bleeding. Also the pain was much worse when I had my braces on. Now, I've noticed that my lips don't hurt at all or maybe a little every once in a while. My embouchure is more of an O shape and I don't really notice my lip going into my teeth.
Does this mean I used to bite? Am I still biting? How can I tell for sure?
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-02 04:58
No reed issues here other than the usual junk we deal with in reeds. I like the Gonzales FOF's and play the 3 1/2's for my set up. Good sound.
I think my issue is somewhat similar to Rosewood's. I have a fatigue problem after a little bit of practice and lose focus. I then bite to get a better result......don't realize I'm doing it until my lip is sore. I'm sure this has to do with weak embouchure muscles. The break I took in playing to raise a family, (all three boys are musicians, though), made me weak, but only in the embouchure. I'm stronger in many ways for raising three boys!!!!!. I know in my mind what I want to sound like but making that happen for any great length of time is the main problem here.
I have changed my practice style from just hitting it hard for 2-3 hours a day to practicing like I did in school. I play in shorter time increments but am trying to focus more on quality practice instead of hitting everything in my current repertoire. Back to the basics. I suppose even seasoned players must do this when we lose focus. It's sometimes very humbling this clarinet we play. Lip and thumb seem to be my big problems.
I suppose I'm asking if anyone has any other way to deal with these sore lip issues other than to do what I'm doing and use something across the lower teeth while in the process. Any practice technics you use to keep lip from getting so sore and how long do you play at one time without breaking? Also, what do you all use on the teeth to cushion the lip? I know this is controversial to do but I don't know any other way to continue to play when I have a split lower lip. I will continue to play so I'm finding the best possible way to do it.
Thanks,
Rebecca
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-02 05:24
Clarinetgirl06 wrote:
> Does this mean I used to bite? Am I still biting? How can I
> tell for sure?
Carrie,
It would be impossible for anyone on this board to conclude absolutely that you are biting without seeing and hearing you play in person. That is why you have a private teacher...and a good teacher would be addressing these problems in your lessons if you do have a "biting" issue.
I can only speak on authority how biting affected my playing for many years; the causes, the symptoms.
I never had a major biting issue until my first college professor proclaimed that my chin wasn't "flat and pointed". I have a slightly recessed jaw, and I probably was collapsing my chin. But his advice was taken to the extreme. Add onto that the Larry Combs 1 MP all of his students had to play on and the recommended #5 Blue Box Vandoreens. By the end of my Sophomore year I had the grip of a viper...a nice callous inside my lower lip and the worst problems with reeds.
During this time...Reeds were usually stuffy and dull. Articulation labored...and one point I broke a few capilaries on my chin from biting so hard to create sound.
From my experience, a these are some of the aural symptoms of a biter. There is nothing seemless about intervals...your playing - although you may not hear it as much, will be uneven. You will play almost all notes sharp, even if you tuned your clarinet...it seems biters always end up way sharper than the average non-biting clarinetist. Your altissimo register will be hard to control...and articulation up there will be hit or miss. You will have problems starting notes in that register and the tone will usually be pinched sounding. It will be hard to get through phrases and have a large dynamic range. You will squeak much more often than the average non-biter.
Now, many biters have corresponding throat tension issues...where they use the throat to control the air stream. This was my BIGGEST issue. If you have a throat tension issue, this will most likely affect articulation, tone, intonation and cause you to bite. Sometimes figuring out a biting issue is sort of like the "What came first, Chicken or the Egg?" quandry. Does biting cause you to have throat tension, or was the throat tension there because you don't know how to support the air stream through the abdominals? For me, I needed to strengthen my abs to give me the ability to utilize them at all. Having strong core muscles allowed me to create a proper air stream, which led to releasing that throat tension, which led to a relaxed embouchure and tongue. Its funny how when you find the correct thread to pull, the entire tapistry will unravel itself.
So, you could have one, two or all of the above symptoms if you have a biting issue...if you have none but the occassional squeak - which happens to EVERYONE - or playing slightly on the sharp side after the horn warms up...you are probably in good shape.
But, if you feel you have an issue, bring it to your teacher. That's why she gets paid the big bucks!
Post Edited (2005-06-02 05:25)
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-06-02 18:11
Not much of an injury, but the worst was a bad sunburn on the top of my arms after marching in a July 4th parade for a couple of hours back when I was in the Navy.
Does hyperventilating while playing long forte passages on a contra-bass count <grin>.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-02 21:31
Thanks Sue. I'll talk to her about it. From what you say about biting, I can't 100% tell if I am. I have some of what you say. I play with a collapsed chin and she's telling me flat and pointed, but I just can't get the whole flat and pointed down so sometimes I go back to collapsed chin. What can collapsed chin cause?
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-02 21:57
Carrie,
Certain things are hard to describe in a way other than visually, but I will try. When I say "collapsed chin" I mean my lower jaw recessed back...which causes the chin to move back and higher in position. Looking in the mirror, the skin on my chin dimples when I form my old embouchure. I just want to verify that you have a similar problem in description when you say "collapsed chin"
I think one of the best ways for people with a recessed jaw to work on a good embouchure placement is to form a double lip embouchure. If you try putting your top lip over your top teeth in addition to pulling your bottom lip over your bottom teeth...due to anatomy, this will most likely put your lower jaw into the correct embouchure position for your structure. Someone with a perfect bite compared to an overbite has a stronger embouchure naturally - these people rarely have to work on the "flat and pointed" concept since this is anatomically how they are built to create an embouchure. There are exceptions - of course...but from my experience those students with a perfect bite don't have embouchure problems on average.
For us people with a recessed jaw, we have to engage the muscles to keep the jaw forward...which is in a way unnatural and we end up working harder to keep the embouchure steady. But with Double Lip, it is much harder to collapse the bottom jaw...and feels much more natural - for me anyway.
This does not mean you have to play double lip...which does take commitment to work into shape and keep in shape...but it is certainly a good practice tool to compare your single lip position to how your jaw looks in the double lip position.
If you find that your jaw looks about the same when you compare single lip and double lip...your embouchure problem is probably not related to your jaw position.
Post Edited (2005-06-03 00:40)
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2005-06-02 22:15
Whenever I practice for more than 1-1 1/2 hours without a break, I end up injuring myself. Take at least ten minutes every hour to let your hands relax. When I was in college, I asked my teacher, Mr. Gigliotti, if I should forget about college, and just practice 8-10 hours every day. His response was, "If it takes you 8 hours per day to learn how to play the clarinet, it's too difficult for you, and you should try to do something else for a living." He suggested 4-5 hours as a sufficient amout of time. I've seen too many of my colleagues injure themselves by over- practicing. All that said, I have to admit that I admire your work ethic!
Chris
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-03 00:50
Hi Chris!!!
For you who don't recognize his name, he is the mouthpiece refacer and co-maker of the Chadash-Hill mouthpiece.
I never practiced more than 3 hours a day. Never needed to go more than that as I picked up what I needed to do in that amount of time easily. 3 hours of really intense practice is better than 5 hours of non-focused, non-woodshedding "practice".
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-04 15:05
crnichols wrote:
> You aren't speaking of Julie Vaverka are you?
Hmmm...perhaps we know each other. I hope you don't blow my cover...
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-06-05 13:44
It's possible, I studied in Boston for undergraduate school, I didn't study with Julie though, I studied with Ian Greitzer while I was up there. I had Julie for wind sectionals and a few classes. She's a riot, and an outstanding teacher.
Christopher Nichols
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The Clarinet Pages
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