 Keepers
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Author: HAT
Date: 2005-04-22 22:28
Such a controversy. Claims of 'impossiblity.' Whenever someone says 'never,' 'always' or 'impossible, I get skeptical.
I stand by everything I said in my masterclass.
What was left out of the argument is context.
If you have a slur from f to f# or vice versa and that is it, I can see the argument against flipping.
In real life, generally you are either going from somewhere or to somewhere from f or f#. Getting off of two side keys while slurring to, say, throat A or A flat is going to cause problems compared to coming from first finger f#.
The context of my comments in the masterclass were regarding the 2nd of the Stravinsky 3 pieces. The student was grabbing for the two side keys unsucessfully. A good example of a context where the ability to make the exchange absolutely cleanly is necessary. There are probably thousands of such examples in the standard repertoire alone.
Just try playing through the Baermann III book without ever using the flip.Good luck! Now try it without ever using the two side keys. You won't find any examples where it is absolutely necessary!
As I said in my class, the side f# fingering is easy to use and you can always turn to it if you like. But if you rely on it, you are going to run out of luck eventually.
In any case, I am not here to debate this.
However, if any of you are convinced you can tell for sure what fingering is used in context, I propose the following:
When playing my scales today, I recorded four of them twice and made four sound files (each file is one scale played twice in succession).
F# major
D flat major
B flat harmonic minor
F# harmonic minor
Anyone who sends an email to me requesting these files (less than 1 megabite for all of them) is requested to analyze them and state which times the flip fingering was used and which times the two side keys were used for throat register f#.
Since we have some experts here, it should not be hard for you to tell definitively what fingerings I used.
After all the responses are posted in this thread, I will reveal the answers.
As for Robert Marcellus, he was dogmatic about this but his reasons were sound. It is hard to believe he has been gone 9 years now. Most people have already forgotten or never knew what a superb musician he was. Yes, he had a wonderful sound on the clarinet, but the better you become as a player and a musician the more his ultra solid rhythm, variety and musicality of his articulation, dynamic range, spectacular legato and most importantly, his musical intelligence become apparent. He achieved all he ever achieved as a player by the time he was 45, under the most relentless pressure an orchestral player can be subjected to.
Though he hasn't played a note professionally in well over 30 years, Robert Marcellus is still considered one of the few best examples of what it means to sit in a principal chair in a major orchestra on any instrument. He was also a highly skilled conductor and an outstanding teacher.
Any takers on my challenge?
David Hattner
Post Edited (2005-04-22 23:12)
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2005-04-22 22:37
My instructor gave me good advice the other day-
"Play what sounds best for you. Yeah, there are rules, but sometimes we have to break them."
I am dealing with this F# debate- the first finger sounds better, but the side keys are cleaner. I am met with cleaning up the flip or improving my tone.
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2005-04-22 22:56
In the second of the Stravinsky pieces, I've always played the throat F#'s with the left hand first finger rather than the two side keys.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-04-22 23:19
a brilliant post! thanks for that Mr Hattner!
i am a player who very seldom uses the "flip", maybe i'll work at it a little and incorporate it into my "fingering repertoire". i don't have any problem using the side keys in a zillion performances of the stravinsky- but it now occurs to me that i've always felt a bit "rocky" using them in Debussy Prem Rhap (just after fig 4), i'll try the "flip" out an see if it makes things a bit more stable.
hey i'm not too old to change!
donald
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2005-04-23 04:57
Exactly so young Hattner.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-23 12:25
I sent back the answers to David H as not wanting to skew the answers by posting.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-23 12:46
HAT- you've completely missed the point of my argument. I was talking about playing a perfect LEGATO. This is not possible using the "flip" method. You have recorded scales played RHYTHMICALLY in 16ths, at a metronome speed of ca. 104 bpm.
Please now go and put your metronome on at ca. 50 bpm, and play the following in 8ths: F-F#-F-F#-F-F#-F-F#-F. Play it twice using both fingerings, and attempt to make the best legato you can. If you can post a recording of that and I can't tell the difference, I'll be very suprised. (Unless of course your version with the side keys is also of a low quality legato).
The report on your masterclass said the following: "David learned from Robert Marcellus that this note should almost always be played with the left index finger."
I strongly disagree, and find this a very strange thing to teach. In any passage where a legato is required it would be ludicrous to insist that someone uses the "flip" fingering. Of course, I wasn't at your masterclass, and didn't hear it all in context.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-04-23 14:14
I'm with Hat (& Marcellus) on this one. Use the lh 1st digit F# unless it is simply a matter of going between F & F# or vice versa. Then the "two side keys" F# may be used if you need too. However, a smooth "flip" is possible and should be mastered as part of your basic technique.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2005-04-23 19:00
So far, I have only sent out four copies of the files. The one person I heard back from did surprisingly well, actually.
One person apparently is unable to determine without having the test done in an extermely specific context. Thus the post two above this one. I will take his answer to the quiz as "cannot determine" which really was my point in the first place. He won't even guess. Just like the old saying 'if you won't play by my rules, I am taking my ball and going home.'
The other two I have not heard back from as yet.
I said I was not here to debate the issue any more and I will not.
If you can't see the point of my teaching and Robert Marcellus's teaching from what I have already written and what has already been said, fine. I really don't care.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-23 19:52
OK, play anything you like, it doesn't have to be in an extremely specific context. But please play something LEGATO! It wouldn't matter which fingerings you used the way you were banging your fingers down in those scales.
My point (for the very last time!) is that the side keys make it possible to get a better legato between F and F# than the "flip" method. The same is true for the octave higher (F-F#) and using the sliver key. To teach otherwise shows a lack of understanding for what a good legato should sound like. Of course you need to master the "flip" method too. But to choose not to use the best legato fingering in a legato context is absurd.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2005-04-23 20:35
Welcome back, Mr. Hattner! Your long absence has been a mystery.
Assuming that all tracks sound nearly identical would seem to prove two points. First, the one I think you intended, is that one can smoothly negotiate a F to F sharp flip. However, the second conclusion, which should satisfy those who prefer the side keys, is that the side key fingering is not tonally inferior to regular F sharp. As one who uses both fingerings, depending on the context, I will gladly stipulate that all examples are perfectly executed.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-23 21:52
Isn't Robert Marcellus dead...? I infer from the article he is still alive.
As to orchestral careers other clarinet players have had much longer ones...such as Drucker in New York.
I prefer the side key legato any day over the flip...
I think the proof is in whether or not one can play a fingering without us(the listener) ever being aware of how difficult the fingering choice is.
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-04-23 21:55)
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Author: HAT
Date: 2005-04-23 22:34
"Isn't Robert Marcellus dead...? I infer from the article he is still alive."
You wouldn't have if you had actually read it.
"I prefer the side key legato any day over the flip..."
Good for you. If you had read what I wrote you would understand that it isn't about preference, it is about what to do when you DON'T have a choice. What you are ABLE to do when you don't have a choice.
_________________________________________________________
Now Liquorice and I basically agree with each other, strangely enough. In any case, the recordings I have heard of his orchestra have excellent 1st clarinet playing so he certainly knows something about it. I agree with him that between f and f# the smoothest way is to use the side keys. But, as I already argued, that is not the end of the story. . .thus the rest of it. . .blah, blah blah.
I disagree that I was slamming my fingers particularly hard. I recorded very close in so that the perspective would be real. To me, that is fast legato. Obviously a different motion from slow legato, but I don't have time to do it again. Suffice to say that I feel legato is possible, even if it is not as perfect and certainly not as easy as using the side keys. I hope we can live with that slight disagreement.
__________________________________________________________
"How did I do David (on one listening)? v/r Ken"
Not so good.
I will wait until tommorow to reveal the answers. I hope more people will participate in attempting to decipher.
Post Edited (2005-04-23 23:06)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-24 01:11
David H. wasn't slamming his fingers at all.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-24 10:30
In a spirit of fun, I've decided to post my guess at which fingerings HAT is using. I say "guess" because HAT has demonstrated very well that it is possible to get very smooth transitions between F and F# using the flip method. I still maintain that the scales were played rhythmically, rather than legato, which is quite a different thing. Played in this rhythmic style, it is even more difficult to discern which fingerings were used. Had he posted, for example, the clarinet solo for scene 3 of the first act of 'Götterdämmerung', I'm sure it would be much easier to tell. I guess my whole point is that there is a difference between "smooth transitions" and a real singing legato.
In any case, here goes:
1) F# major- 1st time side keys, 2nd time flip
2) Db major- 1st time side keys, 2nd time flip (I'm quite sure about this one because the F-Gb interval was less smooth on the 2nd time)
3) Bb minor- I'm really not sure about this one. On the first version you rushed between throat A and Bb ascending, and again between A and Gb descending. This shows me that you feel less comfortable with that fingering. I think you played 1st time side keys, 2nd time flip
4) F# minor- 1st time flip, 2nd time side keys
Well, after all I've written on this topic, I hope I at least got SOME of these right! And I look forward to one day hearing your Götterdämmerung excerpt :-)
Post Edited (2005-04-24 10:34)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-24 11:44
Hat wrote;
Though he hasn't played a note professionally in well over 30 years, Robert Marcellus is still considered one of the few best examples of what it means to sit in a principal chair in a major orchestra on any instrument. He was also a highly skilled conductor and an outstan..etc"
the wordings "Though he hasn't played a note etc al"
is a rather misleading use of the language Hat. This makes it sound like he is still going...present tense participle is implied by the use word "Though..."
My favorite recording of the 3 pieces is Desplus which used to be on lp. It was done in the 60s...roughly around the time Marcellus was doing his orchestral thing under Szell.
I studied the 3 Pieces in the fall of 88 under Desplus in Paris who in my notes had very many interesting things to say. Of course these are rough translations...
"give thought to the fingering which in mvt. 1 gives the best voicing and shading of nuances..espcailly in the dimineundo and contouring fo dynamics... "
another comment from Desplus( whom Stavinsky admired in this work.)
"the side key f# can be used as well as it gives wonderful opportunity for tuning by keeping the key close to the tone hole...(this can be overdone)
Marcellus sadly left no really substantial chamber music output and no Mozart Quintet. As to his methods like any high level teacher I am sure they are fine...
"So what is this challenge about?"
I love Marcellus' orchestral work...in a catalogue of numerous Clarinet Concerto's of MOZART his rates highly...
So if you can find the Desplus recording you are on to the very finest in the catalogue...
My feeling is only use a fingering based on the context of the passage..which I feel I am in total accord with you Hat...
and Yes I did read the article..but the way it is written is a bit misleading.
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-04-24 12:25)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-04-24 14:07
I've been encouraging my students to use the "flip" fingering for chromatic f# for the past 30 or so years. The idea that so-called cross fingerings are technic limiting is sort of absurd when one contemplates the high register fingerings flute players are obliged to use; yet they seem to be able to run rings around us facility-wise.
Speaking ergonomically, I think that the displacement of the right hand needed to operate the two side trill keys (in conventional chromatic f#) is more egregious than the possible slight loss of smoothness that flipping might occasion! Of course when an f-gb trill or a super legato is required in an exposed solo the side keys are still there for you!
I've had a lot of flak from certain band directors over the years, who tell my kids that they are playing "wrong". I daresay that most of the clarinet players in the US who get paid for playing are using the flip fingering at least some of the time!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-04-24 14:26
Let me introduce the typically diplomatic, neutral Swedish "middle-way" into this "interesting" ( ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif) )discussion: In cromatic scales I was taught to use the side keys when ascending and flip when descending. It has always worked for me. Try it!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-24 16:15
Alphie's way is also the way I was taught too...so like any student I took it as gospel...but now as an adult see it's logic.
However, I believe the flip method is good in that it allows the development of clean speed for the left hand....
David Dow
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-24 22:37
So how many folks have now taken the "quiz"?
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Author: HAT
Date: 2005-04-25 13:04
I sent out a bunch of files but received few replies.
The short answer is that in every single case on the recorded examples I used the flip fingering.
Congrats are due to David Blumberg, who somehow figured it out. Perhaps he knows my reputation as being too lazy to try to remember afterwards anything more complicated.
In closing, let me say that I am not a dogmatist. When it comes to things like the Bernstein Sonata, or the Gotterdamerung solo Liquorice mentioned, I would likely use the side keys at least a few times.
Having said that, let me also say I would PRACTICE them using the flip fingerings.
That was the essence of my argument in any case. Use the fingering you want, but BE ABLE to use the difficult one.
_______________________________________________________
As for the Deplus recording of the 3 pieces, I do know it.
Perhaps you can tell us, Mr. Dow, why there are wrong rhythms in the 3rd piece?
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-04-25 13:13
I think HAT used the flip fingering in each case
![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2005-04-25 13:28
I listened to the scale files, and there was a difference but they were quite close. Too close in my opinion to even warrant a guess. So at least in this example I think David has proved his point, that the flip fingering can be executed as smoothly as the side fingering, at least at a moderate tempo.
Now I was fortunate to have attended the symposium and heard David's master class. I think the whole point of this discussion is that the clarinetist has to be so comfortable with the flip fingering that it could be used as the primary fingering in nearly every case. Having the side fingering available is a bonus, and of course it should be used in the approriate context. (slow legato etc...)
It's just that if you can't execute the flip fingering flawlessly, it's going to be one more limitation in that you will have to depend on the side keys.
Steve
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-25 18:34
Ha Ha! Well done, HAT- you fooled me! You've proved your point, and had the guts to do it in the way that you did. I take my HAT off to you!
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-04-25 19:32
I have requested Hats scale files and I am looking forward to receiving them asap. ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: HAT
Date: 2005-04-26 01:14
Glad you approve Liq.
BTW, did you do the DVD of Cosi with Harnoncourt? The 1st clarinet playing on that is exquisite. That's legato.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-26 05:57
No, that's not me on Cosi. But we've just released a DVD of Fidelio with Harnoncourt which you can hear me on. I also play on these DVD's:
-Barbiere di Seviglia
-Macbeth
-Cinderella
-Tannhäuser
-Meistersinger
And if I recall correctly, I didn't once use the "flip" fingering! :-)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-26 06:36
Desplus recorded the Stravinsky Pieces 3 times...his first version was released on lp with Renard and contained the famous rythmic error which Msr. Desplus referred to in one particular lesson with regret. The label only allowed him a single take on each piece and that was it~ c'est la vie. Being a smaller label and the ensemble Domaine Musical being unable to afford much money for studio time this ended up on the record.
However, it was recorded again by Msr. Desplus again in France for radio and this time he told me the label allowed him alot more time and consequently this version is perfect. Immortals even make mistakes Mr. Hattner and I am sure you have too'!
I also remember the famous squawk heard from Marcellus here in Canada, and this in the Brahms Quintet but alas I would not want to tarnish your feelings about Mr. Marcellus. Alot of us just thought it was the Canada geese!
My main teacher Harold Wright always said "The proof is in the pudding."
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-04-26 14:23)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-04-26 08:16
I'm with Larry Bocaner on the flip thing. While that side F# is strictly a chromatic thing, I'm not convinced that it's the BEST chromatic thing. I point it out to students as an option but generally don't push it.
I think that the best indication for using it is when there is a repetitive situation that would overwork the flip.
As for its inclusion in major or minor scales of any kind, I really don't see it as being helpful unless used in straight scale runs or certain repetitive motifs. Do a scale-in-thirds over any of the scales that Hat has mentioned, and you'll quickly see why the 'index finger' F# is the primary and side-key F# is the alternate.
Allen Cole
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-26 15:22
Allen Cole wrote: "Do a scale-in-thirds over any of the scales that Hat has mentioned, and you'll quickly see why the 'index finger' F# is the primary and side-key F# is the alternate"
I feel like I'm almost flogging a dead horse here, but again I have to disagree! I have no problem doing these scales in 3rds using the side keys, and the sliver keys. My conclusions from this entire discussion have lead me to believe that it depends largely on how you were taught. Some people have been taught to use the "flip" primarily, and the side key only for trills. Alphie and David were taught to use the side key on ascending chromatic and "flip" on the descending. I was actually taught NEVER to flip. (Shock, horror!)
I am a professional clarinetist and have played all of the standard solo and chamber repertoire, as well as many extremely demanding modern works. I never use the "flip" fingering. With a bit of practise I got used to getting to and away from the side keys without any trouble from/to any other note on the instrument. I probably had to spend less time practising this than people have to spend perfecting the "flip", but who knows?
The point is that all of these methods can work. It seems to me that if you learnt the one, it seems inconceivable for you that the other method could work, but people have proven this wrong.
My conclusion- I think we all agree that the side key is better for trills, repetitive patterns, and the smoothest legato. In all other contexts do what works best for you.
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2005-04-26 21:36
Have to agree with Liquorice here, it is easy to learn to use the side key F# and it makes scales in thirds easier, but I suppose if you didn't use the LH eflat sliver key it would make it hard.
Seems as if there there is a difference to what what is being taught in the states then other places(I am in Australia). I always teach my students to use the fingering that will help with legato, so side key F#, LH E flat/Bflat (sliver key) and RH B/F# sliver key are taught all the time. These fingerings help and the quicker you get used to them the better. It all comes down to knowing your instrument backwards and using all options available(all of these keys ARE on your clarinet for a reason).
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-04-27 04:17
i've just come back from 5 days holiday
i can't believe this post is still going on!
still- interesting to hear about Mr Deplus and his mistake on the Stravinsky recording, i remember noticing that as a 14 year old and spending quite some time trying to make sure that it was indeed a mistake (i couldn't believe that i had it right and Deplus not)
donald
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-04-28 01:30
Good job David. I cant see any differance. I also like the sound of Your Buffet. I learned the flip from the get go and never had a reason to use an alternate fingering for the F# but it was an interesting experiment and learning process. Thanks for the files.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-04-28 01:34
This is similar to the discussion I incited a while ago on whether the sliver Eb/Bb key was necessary on a clarinet. I still don't use it (unless my side key gets clogged with spit).
I'm sticking to the argument that it's all relative, and it's all whatever you get used to. Flip fingerings, alternates, none of it matters. Whatever you practice enough, you can become proficient enough with to use exclusively (if you choose to do so).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-04-28 02:26
Must be an American school thing - a collegue who is a graduate of the French Conservatory says that they rarely are taught to use the side trill keys and the flip is the norm. N=1
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-04-28 11:33
Alexi,
I see your comment "...and it's all whatever you get used to. Flip fingerings, alternates, none of it matters. Whatever you practice enough, you can become proficient enough with to use exclusively (if you choose to do so)."
Again I say to you (just as I did on the Eb/Bb thread), if you are a teacher and you tell your students "none of it matters" you are really doing them a disservice. What you use, personally, as far as fingerings is your choice. Please do not foster that attitude in your students. Show them the whole clarinet and then when they get "great big" they can make an informed choice.
HRL
Post Edited (2005-04-28 14:28)
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2005-04-28 13:13
Why wouldn't people use the LH eflat key when they could?
It keeps motion in the one hand and therefore is logically easier, including for the brain(does your right hand use a diff part of your brain than the left?)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-04-28 13:29
Hi DezzaG.
I agree that the fingering should be used when appropriate but I think there may be an ergonomics reason for the preference for certain alternates. If you put your hand flat on a table and raise each finger one at a time, notice that the ring finger has limited dexterity in comparison to the other fingers.
A hand surgeon (or a ergonomcis engineer - I suspect that is a very small subspecies of the engineering community) could probably best describe the physical considerations involved. But I do know from my piano drill days, that finger does not move very well and thus people may confuse dexterity with correctness.
HRL
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-04-28 14:45
At the Clarinet Symposium, Mark Nuccio suggested that if you have a long right index finger, you can bend the tab of the bottom side key outward so it's easier to use. If you do that, you'll probably want to make the same adjustment on the second key, to keep it from being blocked by the bottom key.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2005-04-28 16:42
For the record: Larry Combs does not remove the sliver key from his clarinet, at least not when I studied with him. I also do not recall his ever mentioning a preference for either fingering of F#.
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Author: vin
Date: 2005-04-28 17:02
I have heard Tom Martin suggest that the sliver key be removed from the Eb clarinet and I have seen John Bruce Yeh on a broadcast of Bolero, use both the sliver and side Bb in the same phrase, on alternating notes. Go figure....go practice.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-04-29 04:25
Quote:
Again I say to you (just as I did on the Eb/Bb thread), if you are a teacher and you tell your students "none of it matters" you are really doing them a disservice. What you use, personally, as far as fingerings is your choice. Please do not foster that attitude in your students. Show them the whole clarinet and then when they get "great big" they can make an informed choice. I don't have any formal students, but don't worry Hank, cause I certainly show them whatever options are available, and I also try to show them when some might be preferable to others. So yes, I harbor my own personal preferences as far as fingerings go, but I let them choose for themselves as to what THEY want.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-29 14:34
Harold Wright stated categorically that whatever fingering choice you make depends on how well the hands can handle working the passage smoothly. Wright was also very adamant in keeping all the keys on the clarinet. He felt that a good clarinet playing meant also being able to discern which fingerings work best for the individual.. not some collective concept of one thing for all.
I believe a good repair job and properly matched pads and alignment can certainly make optional fingerings easy. There is nothing worse on clarinet than a leaking f# key on the first fingering! It ruins the voicing and tonal shape of the scale from that note downward.
David Dow
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-04-29 17:53
D Dow wrote:
> Harold Wright stated categorically that whatever fingering
> choice you make depends on how well the hands can handle
> working the passage smoothly. Wright was also very adamant in
> keeping all the keys on the clarinet. He felt that a good
> clarinet playing meant also being able to discern which
> fingerings work best for the individual.. not some collective
> concept of one thing for all.
That's the ticket. Since this has become the Energizer thread, I will thank you and Alphie for your thoughts on the chromatic scale. I was taught to use the side keys ascending and descending. I never liked it all that well, and my students always seem to want to use the flip descending. I think there are good reasons for having them do so, and I incorporated this into a lesson just yesterday. Just one of the many things I have picked up from this board
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-05-11 16:04
Hi,
Sorry to be so late in posting this but I have been traveling too much and practicing too little.
Anyhow, the discussion of F to F# as well as the discusison of various Eb fingerings struck a chord (D# minor to be exact). I went back to Kroepsch Book II #311 and found about the perfect exercise to show how handy the alternate fingerings are in some situations.
I have found the most dexterity by starting this exercise with the T 1 2 banana key for the D# and using the chromatic F to F# throughout except for one spot. Give this exercise a whirl and see what you think. If living large, jump down to 313 for a whole new set of problems.
HRL
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-05-12 02:13
Hi Ken,
I must agree with your friend on the "never use" thoughts. With the #311 exercise I mentioned in D# minor, I found after just a little bit of practice, I really had the alternate fingerings well under control. I do not expect to have to play that pattern again for quite sometime but having added dexterity was very comforting.
HRL
PS I still love the Il Convegno CD cut and dilligently practice the chart (while playing along with you and Amy Ashmore).
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The Clarinet Pages
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