 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: directcj
Date: 2007-08-23 00:37
I'm currently looking for an oboe for my daughter. She has been playing oboe now for about 2 yrs on a wood Selmer, supplied by her jr high school. The high school is not going to be offering an oboe for use so we are on the "prowl" for an oboe. Right now we are renting one but this time it is a plastic selmer.
I've searched quite extensively on this board, ie wood vs plastic, 3rd octave, f key, full or modified conservatory etc....
We are advised by her teacher and she has advised us to go with Loree and has told us that she can arrange for a try for one that is ~$4500, built in '92.
I know that Loree's are expen$$ive in general. The teacher has told us of some that are in the $6k range.
She is going in to HS and we are not sure about commitment yet, although she has indicated her desire to us. She made the All So-Cal honor band last year so she probably has the talent.
Other than the expense we are concerned with a couple of things:
1. wood vs plastic. being a teenager we are concerned with handling and potential cracking. her instructor is somewhat adamant about a wood oboe
1a. i'm considering looking into Fox or Yamaha plastic - any advise with regards to this, the instructor has already indicated a dislike for fox
2. The hs marching band instructor (who plays oboe) recommended an MCW oboe - any thoughts on this one?
3. i've looked at all the websites mentioned here, Peter Hurd, Carlos Coelho, Nora Post, etc.... Other than RDW here in Los Angeles, any other shops that can be recommended that can offer multiple oboes for trial?
If we do buy, new/used, Loree/Fox/Yamaha/Marigaux/Rigoutat whatever it may be, do you folks insure or get some sort of warranty for it? I'm just not comfortable with the thought of a $3K-$6K instrument while in HS.
directo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-08-23 00:55
You could contact RDG in Los Angeles. (rdgwoodwinds.com). They carry Loree, Marigaux and others and is a firm which has been around (albeit under different ownership) and highly regarded for decades. They might also offer used instruments.
Some instruments can be ordered with a plastic top joint, or with a plastic top joint in addition to a wooden top joint (esp. Loree) with wood for the rest of the instrument. It is the top joint where the greatest potential for crack damage (from temperature and humidity changes) exists. And occasionally such a top joint is available in the used market by itself.
There are many reputable dealers around the country who can be relied upon to send quality instruments on trial, if RDG does not have what you want. Have your daughter's teacher try the instruments, and send back the ones which you do not wish to purchase.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Schell
Date: 2007-08-23 01:24
If you can affor the 4500 dollar range there are newer used instruments that you can get than 92. I got my 2001 used Loree for 4200. Older instruments aren't that great and a lot of proffesionals rotate horns ever 6 or so years.
As for plastic versus wood, she will most likely become frusterated with a plastic oboe because she will not get the sound she's looking for. I know you're concerned about cracks- but honestly, cracks that happen because of temperature/humidity stuff usually aren't that big of a deal. Care for nice instruments is pretty simple and shouldn't be that different from the way she was treating her old instrument/s. Plastic top joints don't make sense to me- trying to force to very different materials to make one homogenous instrument that creates a beautiful sound seems farfetched.
Buying something that isn't intended to be long term now will hinder her performance later on. If/when she does get more serious about oboe she'll want to be focused on her playing and reeds, not concerned with whether or not she's used to her instrument.
If you have the money, I'd suggest going for an oboe she'll be able to use throughout high school, no matter how advanced she becomes (i.e. participation in youth orchestras, concerto competitions, and eventually college auditions). Being able to rely on your instrument really helps speed along the improvement process because one can worry about what aspects of one's playing or reeds needs adressing instead of wondering if it is the instrument hindering progress.
hope this helps,
ashle
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-08-23 01:59
I really agree with what Max has written. I don't see the point of the "hybrid" oboe (resin top, wood bottom). I DO see the point of an all-resin oboe, and in fact, I own one, for use outdoors and in cold pits. But it is not the oboe that I would want to play for a critical listener.
You say your daughter's MARCHING band director is an oboist? Do you mean to say that they use oboes in her marching band? This would be very unusual, in my experience. But if so, then definitely, get a Fox resin or equivalent in another brand (Yamaha, etc.) -- or keep the plastic Selmer. Or get a cheapie at auction on you-know-where. It will just get trashed. I would just find it extremely unusual for anyone to march an oboe. DON'T let her use a Loree for marching band!!
But for her long-term development, your daughter is going to need a good, full-conservatory wood oboe. If your daughter's teacher is pushing a Loree, and if you respect the teacher, you might as well pay attention to her advice. Good used Lorees come on the market all the time, and there are numerous dealers out there who will help you with your choice.
One of the advertisers on this board might be able to help you in your search. http://www.hannahsoboes.com/ (I have not dealt with this source personally, but from the content of her website, would judge that she does know a thing or three about oboes.)
This is one area where you can be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Good oboes are expensive. But they are worth it, both in terms of aggravation avoided and results achieved.
Susan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-08-23 03:52
Susan:
Quote:
Do you mean to say that they use oboes in her marching band? This would be very unusual, in my experience... I would just find it extremely unusual for anyone to march an oboe. DON'T let her use a Loree for marching band!!
I think you misunderstood. What it's saying is that the marching band instructor also happens to play oboe, not that they have oboes in marching band.
Oboes are not a marching band instrument. We all know this.
And I would hope that the marching band instructor knows this, too.
************************
I would like to address this part of it:
Quote:
...her teacher... has advised us to go with Loree ...
...her instructor is somewhat adamant about a wood oboe...
...the instructor has already indicated a dislike for fox...
Musicians, like all other human beings, can have very deeply rooted prejudices, and, like all other human beings, can occasionally be quite irrational on a particular subject. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
The important thing here is, to listen to the teacher's advice, but to understand that s/he is not God, that his/her personal prejudices either for or against a particular make of instrument are not graven in stone, and that you are free to make your own decision, based on your pocketbook and your daughter's abilities and goals.
And if the instructor does decide never to speak to you again because you bought the "wrong" oboe, well, that's not your problem.
On the subject of wood vs. plastic, this is one of the things that people tend to be quite irrational about, [ ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) at Susan and Max ] but back in 1983, someone at the International Double Reed Society did an actual study, with participants listening to wood and plastic oboes being played behind a screen, and they couldn't tell the difference. The abstract of the study is here.
Their conclusion:
Quote:
The results demonstrate that neither oboists nor non-oboists are capable of aurally discriminating between plastic and wood instruments.
Loree and Fox are both highly respected instruments, and "wood or plastic" doesn't signify. Both wood and plastic Lorees and Foxes are played very successfully by reputable, talented oboists, and somehow your daughter's oboe teacher will just have to get over it.
I can personally recommend Fox oboes, as I play a 333 Protege model myself (amateur musician here), and found it an excellent intermediate level oboe, and good value for the money. They usually run about $2,000, more or less.
In addition to being an aspiring bedroom oboist, I am also a 50-something mother of three mostly-grown kids (the youngest is a senior this year), and since your daughter's level of commitment to the oboe is still somewhat unclear, I would advise against investing thousands of dollars in a high-end Loree or comparable expensive "professional" level instrument, even if it does cause her oboe teacher to have palpitations because you bought the "wrong" oboe.
This is because if she does decide to drop oboe, she'll feel really guilty about all the money you spent on it, and while it is possible to recoup some of the investment of a high-end oboe, still, it's kind of like buying a car--the minute you drive it off the lot, it depreciates in value, and even an oboe that's been played "only once! And then I put it back in the case and haven't touched it since!" will not be able to be sold as "used" for its complete purchase price.
MCW oboes, or Mark Chudnow oboes, are another high-end "professional" level oboe.
Whatever model you buy, the warranty that comes with it depends totally on the manufacturer and on the seller. Generally, reputable sellers will guarantee an oboe against cracking for a certain amount of time, but not forever. If you're worried about cracking, I'd definitely go with a plastic oboe.
Selmer oboes are not complete trash, you know. They're generally decent student oboes, if that's all you need.
As far as insurance, I would definitely consult your homeowner's insurance issuer and invest 50 bucks a year in a small theft/fire/loss policy. That way, if she leaves it on the bus, or someone steals it out of the bandroom, you're not out of pocket several thousand dollars.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: directcj
Date: 2007-08-23 05:00
thx all for the replies so far....
no, they don't play oboe in the marching band. it just so happens the marching band director is also an oboe player. in addition to marching band he also directs one of the 3/4 classical bands in addition to one of 2 jazz bands
the advice/observation about deeply rooted prejudices is also helpful and something we'll have to consider. In the end, its my money and my child, so ultimately I view it as a decision for us to make with consideration from the instructor....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oboemoboe
Date: 2007-08-23 07:57
Hi,
I owned a Rigoutat Riec for some time, they are a really good starting point. Wood, 3r octave key, all the trimmings AND relatively low priced. Mine never cracked. I eventually switched to another brand, but my Riec got me through college.
My students usually buy used Lorées, which they seem happy with, or Green Line (crack-proof) instruments if the parents have a bit more money.
Whichever way you want to go, just make sure the instrument gets tested by a proffessionnal oboist.
Good luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-08-23 13:15
there is a very prominent local teacher, eastman trained and extremely well respected, who doesn't recommend wooden oboes for her students unless and until they decide to make a go of becoming professional after high school. she just doesn't think you get enough for the extra money/headaches of a wooden instrument. i'm pretty certain she has them get Fox's. And her students are regularly in the all-county bands/orchestras.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-08-23 13:29
Max --Have younot tried some of the higher quality plastic (or other substitute material) instruments and top joints? Having played professionally for 40+years, I can assure you that a plastic Loree or Marigaux (if you can get your hands on one) top joint can produce performance every bit as excellent and facile as its wooden alternative.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-08-23 15:58
You don't like my hybrid Suzan? :(
Let me first say that not all "plastic oboes" are built alike, and thus, Loree and Marigaux plastic oboes are far superior in design and quality to other oboes, even Fox. They use a heavier kind of resin plastic that doesn't chip as easily and has different sound properties.
As for tonal properties, go as Jan Eberle at Michigan State. She plays exclusively on two Loree plastic oboes from the 1970s.
I think I'd have to disagree with Suzan and Max on this topic. I don't think you could tell any difference between my oboe (N series Royal with the plastic top joint) compared to anyone else's oboe. You're certainly not going to play it and say "Ick! That's a plastic sound!" It's every ounce as beautiful as a full wooden oboe, and people have tried it and proven it time and time again.
As for the reason why top plastic joints are nice, it's very simple.
1. They don't crack. Ever. Unless you drive over it with a Mack Truck.
2. They don't blow out. Ever.
3. They're every ounce as beautiful as wooden oboes.
4. Treat it right, and you'll never buy another oboe again.
Wish you could try my horn Max, just so I could show you how wrong you are. :P
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2007-08-23 16:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-08-23 16:41
Hi CJ --
Well, I may have been a little too hasty, or not specific enough, in my comments yesterday.
As I think you know (since you were drooling, sort-of, over my all-resin Loree when I mentioned it before), I do have one of the fabled 1970's all-resin Lorees. And it is a wonderful oboe. If I did not have my (coming to be equally fabled) early-2000's Covey Classic, I would think it was perfect.
But there is no question in my mind (and, I would have to say, in the minds of those who have listened to them both) that the Covey is the superior instrument.
Is that because it is grenadilla, vs. the resin of the Loree? I doubt it. I think it is because it is a newer design, a handmade "designer" oboe, and just one of those really wonderful instruments that "happen" from time to time.
I bought both of these used, and the contact in each case came from Ebay. Did I get lucky? Yah, sure, you betcha!
However, last year, when I decided to find an English Horn, I ended up going with the all-resin Fox (Model 520, I think it is). I could have had the "hybrid," but I didn't see the point of the hybrid. I think that is Max's point, and mine. If the resin is, in all respects that matter, the equal of wood, why bother with a wooden bottom? Why not just get the whole thing in resin, and be done with it?
Hope you are enjoying Oregon.
Susan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JudyP
Date: 2007-08-23 20:01
My advice is to get what you can afford. If your daughter stays with the oboe, she'll probably want to get a better one in six to eight years, or she'll want to get an additonal one. I know many oboists on this board who have more than one oboe and, perhaps, an English Horn.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oboe1960
Date: 2007-08-24 00:06
I would have said, "make sure your teacher gets involved in the process of choosing an oboe", but it sounds like she has an axe of her own to grind here.
All the advice you've been given is good. I will say that $4500 for a '92 Loree sounds very steep; I think it should cost less than that.
I played the MCW oboes at an IDRS conference a few years ago and was very impressed with the quality vs cost. I have rented a Fox to use while my oboe was in the shop, and it was OK but I liked the MCWs better.
There are a lot of places you can get very good quality, used oboes at a good price. My 1964 vintage Loree cost me $2000 10 years ago and it has plenty of music left in it, although it is now just my back-up. I bought a 1988 Covey for $3000 and love it. I have a resonite Fox English horn that was a good value for the money, although I've played more expensive grenadilla EHs that I liked a lot better. If the teacher is willing, I would explore the "oldie but goodie" route, get hold of some used, good-name oboes and have her try them. If not, maybe a local university can help you out. I can give you some places to check out for used oboes if you like, let me know........
And by the way, I played a Selmer Signet until my senior year in high school, when my parents bought me a Loree (not the one I have now). I did OK with it, but the difference was night and day. I will also say that oboes tend to hold their value, so if you buy one and 5 years later you have to sell it, you probably won't lose much, IF you buy a good one!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: directcj
Date: 2007-08-24 04:53
if i had a crystal ball and can predict that she stays commited, i probably would not have a problem with 4-6K. however, we all know that time changes everything especially for teens/pre-teens
i would not have an issue buying a top of the line oboe and would not hesitate under my situation if the cost was in the 2-3k range, however we are talking 2-3x (4-6k).
so, if i limited the purchase to around 3k (new or used) what advice would you give me? sounds like the next level up would be 4k & up.
are there any places in the SoCal area that would rent an intermediate or pro-level oboe. I see that Midwest Imports does but renting from a local provider i feel would have its advantages. we are being patient as we do want to do the right thing and ensure that we get good value
oboe1960 - pls do let me know were to get a good used oboe
we are thinking of trying RDG (we are in South Orange County) to try different brands new and used to get an idea.
i've also looked at eBay but just to get an idea of availability and price. saw a local ad for a Marigaux for ~2k (circa 1988 i believe)
directo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-08-24 04:56
I recently tried an MCW oboe and it was quite fine. I think it would be well-worth looking into them, or trying to find a used one. Check Mark Chudnow's website under used oboes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: directcj
Date: 2007-08-24 05:43
cjwright-
MCW was one of the 1st websites I checked due to the band director's recommendation. Unfortunately at this time they don't carry any used MCW oboes. A few Lorees and Marigaux though....
directo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sylvangale
Date: 2007-08-24 07:13
In Southern California RDG Woodwinds (West Hollywood area) and Michele Forrests (Glendale area) sell new and used oboes. They are well respected oboe repair specialists in the area.
You can request a pricing for what oboes they have in stock so you have a heads up before you visit.
These are their websites:
Michele Forrest:
http://www.oboefix.com/about.html
RDG Woodwinds:
http://www.rdgwoodwinds.com/contact_us.php
If you're prepared to purchase an oboe you should bring the oboe teacher along to help sort better oboes out in your price range.
If you go to Vegas, you can stop by Kessler Music. The owner is an oboist and they stock Rigoutat RIECs and Loree.
http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/locations.html
Outside of that you may want to call your local Sam Ash stores to see what they have laying around. They have interesting used instruments from time to time for insanely low pricing. The Redondo Beach Sam Ash had a older professional Rigoutat selling for around $1500 a couple months ago.
Regards,
Stephen (Piko)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-08-24 14:10
Quote:
i've also looked at eBay but just to get an idea of availability and price. saw a local ad for a Marigaux for ~2k (circa 1988 i believe)
Do you need us to tell you to be really, really careful about buying an oboe on eBay?
I have seen oboes listed as "Famous Maker" which were not, and I have seen oboes listed as "In mint condition" which, even just looking at the picture, were obviously not.
I bought my Fox 333 new through Kesslers eBay store, and was happy with the purchase, except--when I bid on it through BuyItNow, instead of giving the shipping amount and allowing me to Paypal it, they had a message that said, "Contact seller for shipping", and gave an 800 number. So I called them, and they wanted me to give them a credit card number over the phone there. Well, being a total eBay newbie at the time, I shrugged and did so, but it was only much later that I realized that by not completing the transaction through eBay, they avoided having to pay their seller's fee to eBay.
So just something to think about.
The price range of $2-3000 would get you a Fox 330 from Giardinellis, which is like the next step up from the 333.
List of Fox dealers in California.
Fox dealers in Nevada.
Fox dealers in Arizona.
Although Fox's list price for the 330 tends to be around $4,500, it's like with cars--the list price is just what the salesman will quote you, it isn't always what you end up paying.
If you put "fox 330 oboe" into http://www.google.com/products , you'll get a look at the wide array of pricing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: directcj
Date: 2007-08-24 16:04
not to worry, i've done eBay for other items but read enough here and through other sites to not do it for this purchase.
unless a "deal" presents itself ;-)
directo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oboe1960
Date: 2007-08-25 12:04
Here are some places where I would go to check out used instruments:
http://www.usedoboes.com: She carries a lot of used oboes of good manufacture, and usually has some of the older Lorees for sale that I think are a great idea, owning one myself.
http://www.mcfarlanddoublereed.com
http://www.forrestsmusic.com Also a good place to go for all your oboin' needs. This is where I got my Covey oboe.
http://www.norapost.com
http://www.oboes.com This is the link for Covey Oboes. Their used instrument list is woefully out of date, but call them and tell them what you're looking for; they are in touch with a lot of instruments that I guess they're too busy to post. This is where I bought my Loree.
Also, I would include MCW and Midwest Music Importers, but you already know about them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OboeAgain
Date: 2007-08-26 12:19
I wouldn't discount Midwest Musical Imports because they are far away. I've rented and bought from them, and they are very good about letting you try out things out without commitment. I did like the idea of having 2 weeks of trial at home.
Walter
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oboeidaho
Date: 2007-08-27 16:27
I have also had fabulous luck with MMI - they have always had knowledgable staff and I have rented several times (d'amores) and they were great instruments. Never bought an instrument there though.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skinrd
Date: 2007-09-13 02:12
I do not know if you have solved your oboe search but just to give you a heads up on a Very Positive site; http://www.musiqueweb.com/ I purchased a wood Bundy Selmer for $800.00. I plays absolutley beautifully!! they have true cusomer service and quick delivery. You can also find their oboes on ebay.
Wood is positively the only way to go. Plastic sounds more like a duck than an oboe. If you trust your child with a school rental surley your child would take care of her own much better than a school instrument. Shool insturments are not usually of quality due to wear and tear of child use.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: directcj
Date: 2007-09-13 05:39
Problem still not solved, we are in the process of trying out oboes, locally 1st. Haven't made a decision yet but we've tried new/used Lorees, Cabart, Rigoutat, Marigaux.
Questions regarding Lorees -
I notice that the AK and C series models come with or without 3rd octave key. When did Lorees start having a 3rd octave key or was this always an option?
Is there a particular year of Lorees we should stay away from? I know this may be a generalization and that each one may be different but I'm thinking there may be differences between certain years.
I've seen discussion here of a plastic Loree - have they stopped making them? If so, how much are they when they come around for sale?
directo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-09-13 05:41
They were stopped being made in 1975(?) or so. Very hard to come by. I'd pay up to $4000 or so.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JudyP
Date: 2007-09-14 05:28
Speaking of oboes on the market, our local wind instrument technician has a Buffet Greenline for sale. I don't know much about them, but it's rather old. I recently learned that a Greenline has resin with the wood so it doesn't easily crack (if at all). Maybe some of you more experienced musicians are more familiar with this make. I believe that he is asking about $4000 for it.
I understand that a professional played it for years in a major symphony orchestra.
He might not have it anymore. I last spoke to him about two weeks ago.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lbarton
Date: 2007-09-15 15:49
Whatever you decide in regards to brand, price etc, by all means insure the instument. As long as she plays as an amateur, not being paid for playing, your homeowners policy will cover it with a suitable rider. Then it is covered for almost anything, theft at home or from car or school locker, falling down the stairs during school hallway rush , etc. Its well worth the small added premium for the peace of mind. If the instrument is a complete loss then you have the money to replace it. Get a bill of sale or a fair market value appraisal from store, oboe teacher etc. If its played professionally then you need to go with a company like Clarion .
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-15 16:23
I think the Simon Bolivar Youth orchestra oboists all play Buffets - not sure if they're wood or Greenline.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: directcj
Date: 2007-10-02 05:01
Just a follow-up to all who's been reading this.
After a long ardous process and trying at home at least 3 oboes and trying at RDG and Michelle Forrest more oboes (new and used) -
We eventually purchased an oboe from Hannah's Oboe. She essentially offered the best oboe at the price range we were comfortable with $3-$4k. Bottom line was that she was quite accomodating, and put us at ease with the purchase - she even offered to meet somewhere as she was planning to come to LA (to watch Dodgers beat Diamondbacks ;-0 )
This is not to say that we wouldn't have bought from RDG and Michelle Forrest - just that Hannah had the best deal for us based on the age and condition of the oboe.
We were quite fortunate i think to have 2 good local sources for trying out oboes as well as a source of expertise. In the end trying out as many oboes as possible gave us the confidence in picking which oboe to buy.
BTW, the oboe we bought was a Loree, AK+3 model
One word of advice for those in the same predicament - have a method for trying out the oboes, there was a recent post which referred to an IDRS column. here's the link: http://idrs.colorado.edu/Publications/DR/DR14.3/DR14.3.Dunkel.Guide.html
unfortunately we didn't have this in the course of trying out oboes. as my daughter is still in 'training' , she didn't have a clue how to evaluate methodically other than playing a couple of scales, some measures (hi & low) and favorite passages.
directo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
