 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: sb1920alk
Date: 2018-05-22 02:18
Hello,
A friend and I were discussing the split D key (right hand 3) and it's purpose. Pressing the left hand E flat key causes the lower part of the key to close, improving the intonation of the D-sharp-to-E trill. Everyone seems to agree on that. What we can't seem to find an answer to is: Why can't the left hand E flat key lower the whole RH3 key? Why does it need to be split?
I've looked at many fingering charts for a note that requires left Eb and NOT RH2 and also NOT RH3, as they close the tone hone that the top part of RH3 closes. If there exists such a fingering, I could see how this key would need to be split. I've found a few, but nothing of significance, so I feel like I must be missing something obvious.
I came up with the example of going from Db to Eb to Ab: pressing both left Eb and left Ab at the same time, but I can't hear a difference in the sound of the Ab by adding or removing either Eb key. There are a few other examples that are even more obscure from http://wfg.woodwing.org/oboe/ob_fing.html, but none of them really made a difference in sound either, so I bring it to you.
TIA
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-05-23 14:03
If the entire RH3 fingerplate was to be closed by the LH Eb key, then the forked F vent will open.
The outer ring is fitted to close the F# key and open the forked F vent when RH3 is held down and the inner bush is independent to that so it can be closed on its own (by the LH Eb key) to bring the E down to pitch while the Eb key is open.
Also the inner bush can be configured to close along with the low C key which is what's called the Philadelphia/Philly D to alter the venting of altissimo D.
As for an Eb-Ab slur, if you're holding both LH Eb and G# keys down together, that's not going to have much impact on the G#/Ab as the Eb tonehole is at least four toneholes away from the G# tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sb1920alk
Date: 2018-05-23 17:33
Hi Chris, thanks for the reply.
I see your point about RH3 opening the forked F vent, but it doesn't explain why the key needs to be split as RH2 closes the forked F vent during the D#-E trill.
The Philly D key closes RH2 via the C key, which in turn closes the forked F vent.
So, unless I'm just still not getting it (always a possibility), we're looking for a fingering that uses left Eb to close the lower part of RH3, but can't tolerate an open forked F vent, and also doesn't close the vent some other way like with RH2.
What does that leave? Trilling from forked F (with left hand Eb down) to Gb by wiggling RH3? I guess, but it would be easier to leave out the left Eb and it doesn't affect the pitch of the low Gb, at least on my oboe, by adding either Eb key to a Gb. High Gb, for me, goes slightly flat by adding right Eb, but more flat by adding left Eb, so this doesn't seem to be an advantage either.
Also, the URL in my OP without the typo: http://wfg.woodwind.org/oboe/ob_fing.html I tried to edit the post, but the site said I couldn't.
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2018-05-23 19:15
I have not found any reason either.
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: rgombine
Date: 2018-05-24 02:38
Use for intonation of high Db by adding just the outer ring of the split D to usual fingering
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Author: sb1920alk
Date: 2018-05-24 05:53
Ok, but the key doesn't need to be split for that to work. You're using the C key in your high Db fingering? It lowers RH2 and the forked F and F# vents.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2018-05-25 16:09
Intonation of top-line F#.
Try it, by depressing the ring with your ring finger. F# drops about 50 cents. With the split E you can leave RH Eb depressed for fast runs up and down with F# G# etc. otherwise your pinkies are flying trying to keep up.
Very useful, IMHO.
J
Post Edited (2018-05-25 16:12)
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Author: sb1920alk
Date: 2018-05-25 23:09
jhoyla wrote:
> Intonation of top-line F#.
>
> Try it, by depressing the ring with your ring finger. F# drops
> about 50 cents. With the split E you can leave RH Eb depressed
> for fast runs up and down with F# G# etc. otherwise your
> pinkies are flying trying to keep up.
>
> Very useful, IMHO.
>
> J
>
>
> Post Edited (2018-05-25 16:12)
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying. Did you mean "leave LH Eb depressed" instead of "RH Eb"?
So, are you saying that LH Eb alone has less of an effect on the intonation of F#, so it's permissible to leave it down, where as if the key were not split, the intonation would be too bad to use (for F#)? I'm not sure I agree with that...playing an F# and adding either Eb key causes my F# to go about 20-25 cents flat - so not usable in real life - , but yes, adding the whole RH3 key without covering the hole is about 50 cents flat.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-05-26 03:25
You don't want the LH Eb key to close the F# vent and open the forked F vent if you use that key for certain altissimo notes, so the link from the LH Eb key only lowers the independent inner bush (to bring the E down to pitch with the Eb key open) and not the outer ring which is directly linked to the F# vent and forked F vent.
If the linkage from the LH Eb key lowered the RH3 fingerplate (if it's one with a hole through it), that will close the F# vent and open the forked F vent just as it would if you held the RH3 fingerplate down with RH finger 3.
The split RH3 D#-E trill fingerplate is an elaborate design, but it was designed like that for a reason.
There are a couple of other D#-E trill mechanisms where lifting off RH3 will close the Eb pad cup automatically to make sure the E is in tune. Selmer Paris oboes have such a mechanism and another is the Bleuzet D#-E trill which has a linkage from RH3 (like the top joint Ab-Bb trill link) running under the feather key barrel and closes the Eb pad cup with the extra adjusting screw fitted to the lower end of it. This is why you sometimes see older oboes (B&H Imperial, etc.) with the double adjusting screws on the Eb pad cup (but without the Bleuzet mechanism fitted) when the only one in use is for the low C-Eb link and the other is redundant.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sb1920alk
Date: 2018-05-26 05:57
Hi Chris. Again, the information you provide and your time in doing so is appreciated. I wish there were more users on this forum as active as you.
Which altissimo notes are you thinking of that use left Eb and not RH2 and also not RH3 and also not the C key?
From http://wfg.woodwind.org/oboe/ob_alt_3.html:
C# doesn't use left Eb.
There's one D that uses left Eb but it also uses RH2: halfhole, LH2, LH3, left Eb, RH2, C key to "fake" the Philly D key when slurring.
D# can be played halfhole, LH2, LH3, left Ab, left Eb, RH2, C key...but there's a RH2 in there.
E and F use RH2 and RH3 for fingerings that use left Eb.
There's one fingering for F# that meets the criteria, but it comes out as a sharp G for me, and I find no difference in pitch to timbre by using right Eb instead (either way, a sharp G is unusable as an F# in real life): octave key, halfhole, left Ab, left Eb, RH1.
G has the same thing as F#, but with a C key added, which closes RH2 and the vents for F# and keeps the forked F vent closed.
G# doesn't use left Eb
The A's, A#'s, B's, and C's that use left Eb also use RH2 or RH3.
The one fingering for C#(7) doesn't use left Eb.
I think I understand what you're saying about RH3 being necessary to allow left Eb to open the Eb vent for some systems, but I don't see why that would require the key to be split. Either way, wouldn't that trill leave RH2 down (closing the F# vent and keeping the forked F vent closed)?
I agree the split RH3 key is an elaborate design and I'm all for overly complicated keywork if there's a reason for it: I would love to see Philly D key as a standard (Loree for example clearly has the designs and molds/casts for it...I can't imagine the tiny bit of material and one screw would add over $200 to the cost as it does aftermarket), left C#'s standard instead of the worthless banana key, have RH3 cancel left F, and maybe a link to close the C key when fingering low Bb (definitely) or low B (...maybe), I also think RH1 should be drastically extended as a standard to prevent hand/wrist problems, but that's another story. For this topic, I'm still trying to find an example fingering that demonstrates why RH3 needs to be split.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-05-26 13:37
The only way to test how a fixed RH3 fingerplate isn't used in conjunction with the D#-E trill mechanism is to either glue both parts of the RH3 split plate together to see what that does, or more extensively have a fixed RH3 fingerplate made to work with the D#-E link on an oboe.
I haven't had an oboe with me throughout this entire discussion to see what problems the fixed RH3 fingerplate would cause - I did think about this around 20 years back and realised why the split plate is better, but then never gave it any extra thought since.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2018-05-27 12:36
> I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying. Did you mean "leave LH
> Eb depressed" instead of "RH Eb"?
Duh. Yes, that is what I meant. I believe that the main purpose of splitting the key is not the altissimo register, but the ability to leave LH Eb depressed when playing F#.
On my oboe there is a small effect but far less than 20-25 cents (in the 5 cent range, which I consider acceptable for fast passages). If this is not the case on your oboe I suggest you take it for repair - it could be that the bottom half of the key is not closing fully.
[post edit] I've just noticed you say that it actually drops the pitch in your case. Could it be that your ring is sticking to the bottom half of the key? Try raising it fully and play F# again - it should be in tune.
Were you to cement the split-E ring to the bottom half of the key, it would close the F# tone-hole and open the forked-F vent when fingering F# with LH Eb, which is why the tone drops by 50 cents or more.
J.
Post Edited (2018-05-27 12:42)
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Author: sb1920alk
Date: 2018-06-10 06:28
I'm still not 100% convinced that's it. I've tried it on a new Loree AK bore with a Philly D key and it drops 20-25 cents. I've tried it on a 29ish-year-old Loree standard bore and it also drops 20-25 cents. I had a friend try it on a Loree AK bore from the early 2000s and it drops 20-25 cents, and I had another friend try it on a Loree from the 60's...also drops 20-25 cents.
However...another friend tried it on a Yamaha...something...the model wasn't labeled and she didn't know what it was. The timbre changed slightly, but the pitch didn't. I also tried it on a Selmer model 101 and the timbre changed slightly, but the pitch didn't. So, are Loree's just built differently?
I'm curious to know how it affects others' oboes. If you don't want to read the whole thread, play a top line F# in front of a tuner and add the left Eb key to it and see if it changes your pitch.
Also, if there are any other ideas as to the true purpose of the split D key, please let me know.
Thanks,
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