 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-04 15:47
Okay.. I am only interested in resin at this stage.. hence comparing these two.
and I haven't played anything other than a howarth, a tom sparked and a yammie 431M
but there is quite a big price difference. And if I can let go of the third octave key, well, there are quite a few second hand ones around.
There are some seller 120's with full mechanism quite affordable. But what is their reputation like? I want something LIGHT weight and FREE blowing... I don't like resistance when playing.
I didn't mind the howarth level of resistance... but I didn't love it.
The other thing I want is to be able to hit the notes immediately. The howarth i could play the lowest note, and my highest note (third register G) without blinking. The yamaha didn't cooperate anywhere near as easily with those huge leaps.
So my current thinking is, forgoing the third octave key.. lowers the price.. and I'm sure I would get used to the fingerings for the third octave.
But looking at my resin options... the selmer is very affordable.... would it be light and free blowing, or would i be safest to try and get my hands on a used fox 330 or 300?
It is so frustrating! because i wish I could go to a shop and just try a whole heap and compare.. but i can't!!!!!!!!! Unless i get a howarth... but i don't want the wood... otherwise i would buy tomorrow, as i know he will send a few for me to try etc.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-04 19:11
I only bought the Selmer Signet 104 as it was cheap (relatively speaking) as I just missed out on the Fox 300 which were both on eBay and I was after a plastic oboe with full keywork, but didn't have the money to buy an all plastic Howarth S5 or similar pro model. basically the Selmer Signet Soloist 104 was under a tenth of the cost of a pro level oboe at the time.
I have never played nor worked on a Fox oboe, but can clearly see they're largely based on Loree oboes as is the Signet. I was after a full Gillet plastic oboe and the 104 just happened to turn up at the right time, although I have reamed out the bore with Howarth XL reamers and done all manner of keywork mods to bring it up to Howarth S5 keywork specs.
It is a light oboe even though it has near full pro level keywork (apart from a 3rd 8ve, adjusting screw on LH1 and a low Bb vent) but built on a budget.
I'd steer clear from wooden Selmer USA (Bndy, Signet, etc.) oboes as they often have warped joints and the plastic ones aren't likely to warp, but will need to have sufficient end play in the keywork if you're playing in cold conditions.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mberkowski
Date: 2017-05-04 22:18
Like Chris P, I also bought a plastic Selmer Signet Soloist 104 on auction, because I needed an outdoor instrument and it came up for sale at the right time. I paid less than a tenth the cost of even an intermediate instrument like a Fox 330 for mine, and then invested a little more with a local oboe repairer to bring it to top condition.
The Selmer 104 is indeed very lightweight. Mine has a pretty uneven scale though, and I don't think I would ever use it for a performance where I'm very exposed. Outdoor band concerts are why I bought it. My main complaint about it isn't its scale though. Its worse quality is a tendency to gurgle with instability on low C & sometimes D if my reed tip opening isn't just right or as my embochure tires and I bite a little bit.
I don't consider it in the same category of a resin Fox oboe I've owned in the past. Though it has full keywork (minus 3rd octage), it doesn't feel like a professional instrument to play and its tone quality is bright for my tastes. But it was very, very cheap.
Michael
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-05 00:20
So selmers usually have an uneven scale :'( ??
Shame. I was looking at them. Thinking price is good.. But this would be my only working horn.
And the foxes second hand are about 4000$ from private seller, or 5000$ from shop. And that is without the third octave key.
New it is 6000$ for the 330.... And I would have to buy it sight unseen.. And not know if I like the feel of it!
Or do u think the foxes are reliable enough to not be too resistant and have good intonation on arrival?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-05 00:38
I did ream the bore out on my 104 so it now has a Howarth XL bore, so that's probably made a huge difference to how it plays compared to how it was. It was off the reamer mark by around 5mm or thereabouts, so the original bore was pretty narrow.
I've had several players try it and they all said they could easily use it as a concert oboe if they had to - these players being primarily Buffet, Dupin, Ludwig Frank, Howarth, Loree, Marigaux and Puechner players, so it can definitely punch above its weight against the big league. I also lend it out to players who need an instrument to use while I'm working on theirs if they don't have a back-up oboe.
I was also after a full spec plastic Linton (Malerne stencil) cor anglais to go with it as a set and missed out on one as I got outbid right at the very last second.
I wish I could comment on the Fox 300 but no-one over my way plays Fox oboes to my knowledge as it's largely Howarth (who are 15 miles from me), Loree and Marigaux territory here.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-05 03:21
Chris... Why did u want the bore to match the xl? Why did u not like the American bore?
Because I can't ream out my own bore. Lol. I would have to play it as is!
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-05 03:22
Or maybe I should ask how does an American bore play differently to an European bore?
I am so grumpy... I just want to try out a heap of oboes... And the last store I went to had three for me to try only!!
The store in the city only has marigauxs for me to try, which are above my price bracket..
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-05 19:36
I wanted it to be as near to my main oboe (Howarth S5) so I could use the same reeds on both instruments. I use European U scrape reeds.
Howarth reamed out the bores on their Italian imports (Howarth B) to make them more Howarth-like, so I ran with that idea on this Signet.
It would be good to compare an original spec Signet with my modified Signet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mberkowski
Date: 2017-05-06 04:33
Chris P -
Were I in the UK rather than the US I think I might employ you to ream my Selmer to behave like the Howarth S5 too . Mine's intonation is probably not helped much in that it appears to have had a stuck swab cleared with a power drill at some point. Chewing up the bore a bit just below the reed well. But for under $300US at auction...
Michael
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Author: mberkowski
Date: 2017-05-06 04:43
Sarah,
I can't say that they all have a wonky scale, but I don't think I'm the only one to deal with the unstable gurgling on low notes:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=13914&t=13912&v=f
On my Selmer 104, the bottom of its range, E down to Bb are quite flat in pitch. My automatic tendency when I hear that is to try to lip them up to pitch, but the tightened embouchure may then trigger the gurgling. So it's a difficult instrument to sound really good on. I'm not sure how old my instrument is. When I acquired it, the case it came with could easily have been 40+, but I'm uncertain if that was its original case. Newer oboes of that model might not have any of the issues mine has.
Michael
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-06 06:22
So are you suggesting that american bores don't respond well to European reeds?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-06 08:26
Is there such a thing as an American bore when Loree is the most popular make in the US and the majority of oboes built in the US are built to the Loree design?
Some reeds work better on some instruments than others - I had someone a little while back bring their Marigaux 901 over to me as the F played with the keyed fingering was really wild. I closed the F key down which stabilised it. Then a few weeks or so late they came back as the F was stuffy, so I opened it back to how it was and it was fine. So different reeds - even those of the same style - can have an effect on how an instrument responds.
This is why the oboe is such a temperamental instrument - if the reed isn't right, it will give you nothing but grief.
But there are oboes with dodgy bores that won't play well - Amati (Artia/Lignatone) and later B&H Regent oboes to name a couple have serious bore problems where the top joint bore is too wide, so they're unstable from low E downwards. I started out on a Regent oboe when I was 14 and put up with it for two years until one day it fell over and snapped in half. I wasn't sorry about that at all. But then I tried a Marigaux 901 around ten years later and only then did I realise the problem was with the oboe I had and not myself. So I took it up again and bought a Yamaha 821TP to learn on which gave me far more confidence than that crappy B&H Reject thing ever could.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-06 10:50
I found with clarinet.. If it wasn't enjoyable to play, then I didn't practise.
In fear I will order something and not enjoy playing it.
If I order a Yamaha 831m, I can't send it back.. I can't try multiple versions
Similarly if I order the fox.. Except if I buy new.. I can return.. And have lost about 500$ in the process...
If I buy the selmer... Well it is used... About 2000$ plus duties etc... So 2500$ realistically...
And there is no returns..
I am so afraid of getting something I don't like! !
But the Yamaha has two models... The American bore.. And the European bore... So that makes me wonder...
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2017-05-06 12:35
Sarah. Keep an eye on what Richard Craig has on his second hand Oboe list. He has no problem sending such an oboe to you to try out. He did this for me with the S2 Howarth. And I still think he has my Howarth S55c dual system also the last time I checked. It's all the Oboe you'd ever need.
Skyfacer
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-06 12:37
i spoke to the fox representative here.. she is going to come back at me with prices.. although the problem is still the same.. if i order one.. and don't like it.. i can't return it.....
grrr.....
I told her that free blowing is my priority. and she said one of the aussie oboist tried them when some were sent here for trial. so she will ask him what he felt about the free blowing-ness etc.
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Author: matt_lin18
Date: 2017-05-07 21:03
I think I would hands down - go for the Fox 300. They're built like a tank and I played on one for many years. I played on an older 1980's Fox 300, it did not have the 3rd octave or the low Bb vent either - but played just fine. You could definitely forgo the 3rd octave key, it doesn't make a huge difference unless you're going above high G.
There are several Fox 300's on eBay right now, all for about $3000 - they do not have the 3rd octave but some do have the low Bb vent if that matters to you. There is one with a 3rd octave key for about $4200.
Buying on eBay is usually discouraged but if you know what you're doing, it's wonderful. A lot of them will allow you to return the oboes, usually 14 day or 30 day return policy but you pay shipping.
When you receive the oboe and it does not play properly, you can easily get a refund back and eBay will force the seller to pay for the return shipping. However, this is only true if the seller says in the listing that the instrument plays properly.
Usually, if the instrument is used it will say in the listing "Used: An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended." So therefore if it is not fully operational or functions as intended, and the seller did not mention in the description that it had issues - you can easily file a claim and get a refund.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-08 02:52
Matt and chris
Looking at the specs of the 300 new, what benefits would I get over the 330?
I mean.. What are the extra keys used for... What am I missing out on exactly if I go for the 330?
The problem with those on eBay, and I have been watching them.. But the sellers aren't including duty and taxes. Which mean they can get stuck in customs for ages..
Also.. When I tried the Howarth. I could hit any note on the range, including the third octavewithout even trying...
But with the Yamaha, it was really hard to hit the high notes, particularly if I just played the lowest note on the instrument.
So do the low notes and highest notes sound instantly without hesitation.. For amateurs like me... (well.. Amateur doing grade 8!)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-08 03:04
The 330 (and all wood 335) lacks the split D#-E trill mechanism for RH3 - it gives a better tuned E when holding the LH Eb key down for that trill.
That's the same keywork spec as a Howarth S40c/S45c and Cabart 74 - they have everything you'd find on a pro model oboe apart from the split D#-E trill mechanism.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-05-08 04:09
So... I knew about that key
So what u r actually telling me is that for an extra 4000$ the only thing I get is one trill..
Fox themselves told me the bore of the two instruments is identical
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Author: matt_lin18
Date: 2017-05-08 11:11
I definitely do not think that the Fox 333/330 have the same bore or the level of handmadeness to them as the Fox 300.
The 333 and 330 models are called their "Renard" models, and have less personal attention to them when they are made. The Fox 300 has the same bore design as the grenadilla Fox 400, and are hand reamed and finished with a meticiulous attention to detail.
I had the chance to try some of the Fox 333 and 330's that were made in 2016...definitely not my favorites - very stuffy and did not project well. The Fox 300 I have is excellent...wouldn't mind playing it on a concert tonight if I had to. It's responsive, high notes come out easily
But basically, the only major thing missing on the Fox 330 is the split D ring to faciliate the D#-E trill, and it's not even necessary really. The ring is only there to make it more in tune.
I can email you some sound recordings of my Fox 300 if you'd like.
I know you mentioned that you're only looking at resin instruments but the Fossati oboes have excellent value. The Fossati Tiery E30 is their 'intermediate" oboe but I think that's an understatement. It has a full conservatory system, split D, all trills, third octave, Bb vent.
The only thing that is missing is the spatula on the Bb key, which I have never used. And you can usually find them for less than $3000 used. They only come in wood, but I know they will make a synthetic top joint by special order but I haven't seen any used ones with the synthetic top.
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Author: matt_lin18
Date: 2017-05-10 09:16
They might be the same initlal bore design, but I believe (and per the Fox website) that the Fox 300 receives more hand reaming of the bore to a higher level of refinement. It wouldn't make sense to charge $2000 more for an oboe just for the addition of a split D ring.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-10 16:38
Looks like the 300 has been upgraded to pro level status (Fox) commanding a pro level price when it used to be their top model student (Renard) oboe.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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