 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2013-09-25 22:43
Hi,
I had a bunch of 10 tied reeds that when scraped "flared" awfully" at the sides - I had trouble making good reeds.
This happened "I believe" when my gouger had problems and I had to add pressure to the cane to gouge.
I wonder if this affected this batch of gouged cane. The dimensions seemed okay and I did check them with the micrometer; however, something is not "kosher" here. Could a poor gouge caused the "flaring" of the sides to open?
I usually do not have these problems.... really never.
The reeds tied good.
The cane I used was pretty straight. Temperature? Humidity or lack of?
Comments?
Just very curious to know why the reeds "flared" at the sides all things being equal.
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2013-09-26 13:44
So it is possible that the extra pressure I exerted while gouging caused the gouge to change and thin the sides.
Thanks
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2013-09-26 20:14
Jonathan,
It's a single radius gouger - Ross
Just had it serviced.
If you want additional info - email me.
Mark
Post Edited (2013-09-26 20:17)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2013-09-27 00:12
Cooper beat me to it.
I don't gouge, I buy my cane pre-gouged. My source offers a range of gouges which includes a variation in the centre thickness to side thickness ratio. This does affect the eventual curvature of the reed, and the thinner the sides, the easier it is to flatten the reed, and therefore flare the sides.
My guess is that any excess pressure other than what you would normally put on the gouger would take extra from the closest and also the weakest point - the sides. So perhaps the profile of the gouge changes with extra pressure.
Rachel
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2013-09-27 00:56
Thanks,
Here's another question about how side thickness ratio affects reeds.
How does a thicker side ratio affect tone production ...pitch stability, flexibility etc.
Mark
Post Edited (2013-09-27 00:58)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2013-09-27 01:51
I could be totally wrong here, but...
Euro scrape reeds prefer a thinner side-to-centre ratio. My best reeds are made from a gouge where this is definitely the case. We can use the thinning of the sides during scraping to 'trick' the cane into thinking it is more meaty than it is (i.e. I can turn a soft reed into a harder and warmer one by adjusting merely the sides). But short scrape reeds have more stability in the body of the reed.
Conversely, American scrape reeds rely on the thickness of the sides for the stability of the reed, as more has been taken out from the length of the body. I don't know exactly what the impact of altering the thickness of the sides would be on an American scrape reed in terms of tone, but the thinner the sides, I suspect the less stability the reed would have, and it would also be prone to closing up.
Rachel
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMarzluf
Date: 2013-09-28 05:06
A single-radius machine, such as your Ross, will not give you the option of adjusting the center-to-side thickness ratio, unless you have Dan set it up with a different (i.e. smaller radius for thicker sides) blade and guide. If your machine has produced a decent side thickness before, than it should again. Perhaps the blade is not correctly centered in its "cradle," and is taking cane unevenly (favoring one side of the "spine"). If you gouge all the way down (until the roller hits the rail) and then flip the cane, you should get very little -- if any -- shavings on a "reverse" pass. If you have to make more than one pass to clean up the reverse side of the cane, then something's wrong. Either the blade is not centered, or the bed is not properly aligned with the rest of the machine. Either problem is relatively easy to fix. Email me if you need help.
Generally speaking, thicker sides will produce a larger opening. Too small an opening may actually try to "invert" when the shaped cane is tied to the staple, and may be the cause of your loose sides issue. Too thin will also raise the pitch and reduce flexibility (we need at least a little, to play in tune in more than one key!). Too thick is a problem, too, as the pitch will go down significantly and the reed will be harder to control. Scraping the back may seem like a logical solution to a too-open reed, but it will only take the pitch down further, and wreck your power and stability. It really has to be just right.
I prefer a double-radius machine, personally. It's a bit more of a headache to maintain, but it gives you the option of changing the gouge to accommodate different shapes, cane densities and diameters, oboes' general pitch tendencies, weather conditions, you name it. Still, the Ross machine you have should give you good consistent results, once you find the perfect cane source, shape, etc. to match it.
Keep us updated!
Jonathan
http://www.marzlufreeds.com/
Post Edited (2013-09-28 05:10)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2013-09-28 16:01
Cooper,
I am extremely selective with sorting the cane.
The problem is the gouger ... it has been serviced.
Hopefully the Ross gouger which now has two additional machined centering screws to maintain/center the upper part of the blade in position will solve the problem.
I also have two new blades manufactured from a harder steel.
And yes Jonathan's and your observations are correct .... !
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2013-09-29 08:28
Rachel's comments are also correct, especially wrt. the difference in gouge for short-scrape and long-scrape reeds.
Short-scrape reeds have a lot of structural stability because so much of the bark is left untouched. Long-scrape reeds need slightly thicker sides so that the rails can support the structure all the way through the heart.
Martin Schuring explains this very clearly in Linda Walsh's reed-making DVD (he always explains things extremely clearly).
Also, note that cane is harder and denser close to the bark, and softer the further in you scrape. The extreme tip is always going to be created from the innermost (i.e., the softest) fibers. Consequently, cane that is gouged thinner will have a slightly harder tip (esp. in the corners) than cane that is scraped thicker, and vice versa. (I have a scientific article that verifies this under a microscope, but I can't find the reference right now).
Finding the perfect gouge for a given hardness of cane, with the correct balance between sides and spine, is where the black-art comes in. Lighting a beeswax candle under a gibbous moon is rumored to help ..
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2013-09-29 15:31
So then a gouge at .60 at the center vs. .58 will have an impact on the reed performance; if the the .58 center has a different ratio to the thickness of the sides?
At the moment the center depth setting for my gouged cane is .58 which is recommended by Dan Ross. If I move to .60 what should I expect? if anything?
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMarzluf
Date: 2013-09-29 23:30
Moving to a thicker center, on a single-radius machine, will thicken the sides as well. The ratio stays roughly the same.
On a double radius machine, the two can be changed either together or independently.
Jonathan
http://www.marzlufreeds.com/
Post Edited (2013-09-29 23:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2013-09-30 06:32
Whether or not your machine is officially "double radius", it is always a good idea to take an extra swipe in both directions to ensure symmetry.
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
