 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-12 21:00
I'm feeling like my reed making is advancing. A current problem I have, especially when scraping wider shapes (Brannen X mainly) is response in the high octaves. If they come out at all they can be difficult and are always sharp and uncontrolled. The lower octave notes have body, the crow sounds a halfway decent 2 octave, and for the notes that play I like the tone and intonation isn't terrible. Which part of the reed should I be scraping to bring out the higher notes?
My thoughts:
1. Is my blend area too thick, or angled incorrectly? My blend looks a little like a 45 degree angle to a flat thin area before the end of the tip. Maybe it should look more like a curve, starting steeper and tapering more shallow as it goes closer to the tip.
2. Is it something in the heart. My hearts are very close to .4 mm (measured with a reed micrometer), which is apparently a good thickness according to the Schuring website. I tend to bring the heart to .4mm and try not to touch it after that.
3. Maybe there is an area of the back that would help the situation. Only problem is, I feel the more I scrape the back, the more the problem exists. Maybe I've taken too much from the back, or it's shaped incorrectly.
Thanks for your help.
Drew S.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMarzluf
Date: 2013-02-12 23:11
My advice, regarding high notes specifically, would be to leave the back alone (once your windows have been "established"), especially with a wider shape. Only attack the back on an "as needed" basis, to add overall depth of tone.
The corners of the tip, at the very end of the reed, need to be as thin as possible for sufficient response up high. I tend to make the entire top .5 mm of the reed as thin as I can get it, as well as the sides of the tip, so those top corners (where these two areas overlap) end up being the absolute thinnest spots. Also, you may need to narrow and/or thin the rails of the heart slightly for the high notes to gain tone. Increasing the angle of the "V" (with more definition at the sides, vs. the center) can add stability up top, as well.
Jonathan
http://www.marzlufreeds.com/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-13 00:50
I echo Jonathan's advice. And Richard Woodhams, in Sprenkle's "Oboe Reed Styles" talks about '...getting the extreme tip as thin as possible".
I have a simplistic view of the process, which is that the low sounds are owned by the (relatively) long, thick scrape in the back and the higher sounds are the province of the thinner, shorter tip.
The energy to drive the thick back can't be had by blowing; it must come from the thinner, more easily vibrating tip.
Through the blend...
If the blend is too abrupt, it detaches the tip from the reed and all you get is 'tweeeeeee'.
If the blend is too shallow the tip is not free to vibrate and there are no high frequencies - and the reed is difficult to blow.
Getting the balance, the 'right angle', is the magic trick, easy to say and possible only through a lot of experimentation, as you well know.
You talk about scraping with different shapes. That raises a red flag for me, because each shape has it's own particular balance as a function of you, the instrument, the cane, the weather and etc. If you play around with more than one shape, then you are multiplying the variables by the shapes you are working with. Is there a reason for using more than one shape?
My approach to reed making is to build the tip with a middle-of-the-road blend so that it works, and then scrape the back to the rough finished dimensions (all eyeballed...) then use the response of the reed to decide what to thin to get that balance between the high and low, the tip and the back. If the reed blows with difficulty, thin the back to ease the resistance and thin the blend and the tip to balance. If it blows too freely, clip the tip slightly until you get the resistance you are looking for and again play with the balance.
Ultimately, though, I think the blend is the fulcrum of the high frequency/low frequency teeter totter that is what reed making is about, and spending time playing with tiny changes and observing the results will be the most instructive thing you can do.
Enjoy!
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-13 01:48
Thank you Jonathan and Robert,
I will try sharpening the knife and thinning the tip as much as possible. I let the reed rest after I worked on it for a while. Will see how it plays tomorrow and continue on. You have confirmed my assessment, and further pinpointed the exact areas for me to work on.
In regards to using multiple shapes while making reeds, I agree with you that it is probably best to stick with one shape. To defend why I use multiple shapes, I am approaching reed making with the different shapes just like I am trying different scrape techniques. I wanted to see how the different shapes reacted to my tying process, my scraping technique, ect... I feel I have learned a lot by doing this. I many not understand why these things are happening quite yet, but here are some observations that I've noticed about the different shapes:
The shapes I have are Ruth, Samson +3, Brannen X, Mack-Peiffer:
1. The Brannen X for some reason flares away at the sides (probably a gouge problem, but the other shapes do not do this), and it always takes the longest to come back to form after it has been dry. I love the low end of this shape, and it will hopefully teach me how to create a reed with a good high end. I feel if you can get good high notes on a Brannen X, you can most certainly get good high notes on a thinner shape.
2. The Ruth shape has a lovely tone, but I cannot control it yet. I have learned a lot in the last 10 reeds I've made, and have not approached a Ruth shape with the new technique that has been working for me. I am anxious to hear how this reed responds to the new scrape.
3. Samson +3 is my most consistent shape. It seems that even if I mess it up, I can fix it, and it's not terrible even when it's not perfect. It seems to like my staples, and is the quickest to come to playing condition from dry. This (or a close shape to it) will probably be the shape of my future. I'm not a good oboe reed maker, and I'm still getting playable reeds out of them currently. As a multi-instrumentalist, the fact that they come to playing condition quickest is very important.
There are probably more than shape factors in the above, but still, all factors between the three have been kept relatively the same. I guess the Samson +3 just gets me. I understand why one should to stick with one shape, and after I get through this batch of cane, I will probably heed this advice. I hope the above is at least a good argument for my case.
Drew S.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-14 04:47
Gotta ask you, Drew, how are you determining your tie length.
My take on it is the top of the wrapping needs to be at the place where the cane is just wide enough to wrap around the diameter of the top of the tube (which is different for different tubes) with a tiny bit to firmly seal the edges. But please don't take anybody else's numbers, because their tubes may be different from yours.
The only way I know to do this is mark the cane where you think the end of the tube needs to be, put the and wrap to the mark. The cane will close progressively as you wrap up to the mark. (And, of course, it must close symmetrically...). If it doesn't close, move the mark further up the cane, but, more important, if the cane closes sooner than one turn before the mark, then you are wrapping too short, the cane is too wide, there is so much cane that it can't be pulled fully tight against the staple. Then it will spring open somewhere in the belly.
Once you have found the wrapping spot for any given shape you can mark all the cane from that shape at the same distance - assuming of course that you are wrapping onto the same staples. Variables are a real pain and the more you have the more bookeeping you have to keep track of...
Forgive me if I'm teaching Granny to suck eggs, but the variety of shapes makes me wonder how many uncontrolled variables you are struggling with...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-14 05:18
I tie on each reed at the longest point possible. The Mack-Pieffer reeds tie on shortests. My last one was 71mm tied on, and that was the longest possible tie length. Ruth ties on long, maybe 74mm. The Samson +3 and Brannen X maybe 73mm, I'm not measuring, just tying on each reed as long as possible.
I have a notebook going. I've got all variable I can think of listed. Shape, Staple, Cane, Length. I've numbered all my staples. I have been using only one type of staple for now, that will change when I learn how to keep reeds in tune and decide on my own shape(please forgive me of that). In the notebook I draw the reed shape and continually update the steps I've taken and relative thicknesses (measured with the reed micrometer). I've just started the book, so I'm learning all the information I need to enter. Maybe 15 reeds in, and I'm getting pretty good at tracking my progress now, finally got a good system down.
I said this on the other post, your help for my high notes was a success. Exactly what I needed. I'm not perfect, but I can tell it's the right direction. Something I will need many more reeds with is the exact blend shape. It's such an important factor, and I believe each little adjustment makes a huge difference. I know I'm on the right track, but I believe it's a long road with that one.
Drew S.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-14 18:33
Attachment: Checkpoints.jpg (59k)
Attachment: 3-window reed.jpg (175k)
Attachment: Hewitt EH reed \'80.jpg (115k)
In 'The Oboe Reed Book' by Jay Light, he suggests you put a laundry basket next to your reed bench. When the basket is full of your discards you MAY know what you are doing.
Seriously, I think you are going about this the right way. A couple of thoughts about reed structure. First, think of photographs you have seen of mountainous desert country, like death Valley. Where a river spils out of a canyon onto the plain it makes a spreading alluvial fan which is thick at the canyon mouth, thins rapidly at first, then more gradually. That's what your blend should look like - it's not just an angle...
Second, symmetry above all! Your reed should be symmetrical blade for blade and symmetrical across the spine on each blade. Four quadrants, and whatever you do in one you should do in the others also - except for adjustments to bring one quadrant or blade into symmetry, of course.
If you view the reed en on from the tip and squeeze ti closed slowly you can see side to side and blade to blade imbalances if the reed closes asymmetrically.
Since you are taking the trouble to log so much information, I can't recommend strongly enough that you get a dial indicator. This will confirm that you are hitting your target architecture and will highlight non-symmetries.
I have appended three scans. One shows the most important measuring spots on an oboe reed of the style I make. The point in the middle of the heart should be between .44 - .50 mm, no thicker than .50 but no thinner than .42.
The corners of the tip at .04 - .05, the center of the tip .07. If you can build your reed to those basic measurements, the crow will tell you everything else you need to know.
The 3-window scrape goes back to my comments in the other thread about windows. It is from a college text, 'The Woodwinds", by Everette L. Tim, c. 1971, Allyn & Bacon, 1974. (Louisiana State University). It is a different approach to the windows concept and demonstrates that windows are an adjunct to and not a necessary feature of this style of reed. I tried this for a while and found it intriguing, but ultimately returned to my own well trodden path.
The third is measurements of a Stevens Hewitt EH reed I got from a former student who studied with him for a time and brought it back with her. It was a wonderful reed and I have modeled my own EH reeds on it ever since. You may need to adjust the finished length depending on your crook...
So, enough for one day. Keep it up!
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-14 22:34
Thank you for the help and praise. I have fun discovering all there is to know in these 70mm sanity benders.
I will have to consider more of your alluvial fan blend principle. A process that seems to work is to create a blend that is triangular, and then take in the top two sides ever so slightly until the high end is where I want it. I made the mistake of taking too much out of there, and getting a very bright reed. A little goes a long way there. Hopefully I'm on the right track in that department.
The squeezing blade technique is a good one. The sides should close before the middle. If the middle closes first, then thin the sides. I think I've noticed that the sides should always be thinner than the middle.
I have a dial indicator and measure constantly. It's a wonderful little device, and has helped tremendously.
I feel like I've seen the 3 window principle on a famous reed somewhere. It is interesting, though I'm not sure if it's a widely used technique. I am still learning the back and windows so cannot comment further on pros and cons of this technique.
Thanks for the EH reed measurements. In the future I will use them to start learning how this instrument works. I need to be able to handle the oboe first though.
Drew S.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
