 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-12-02 18:39
There have been some fantastic video links posted lately on this board. While they have answered some questions I've had, I am still unclear on a consistent approach to scraping the back of the reed. Any pointers on the subject would help, but a particular question I have is knife technique in this area. Do you use the middle of your double hollow ground? Do you use just the tip? Is it more of a dig, or is it a flat cut (obviously not touching the spine)?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Drew S.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-12-02 19:12
Drew...
If you do not one ... get a back light ..... place the reed in front and see the transparency of the windows especially in relationship to the heart.
You will be able to judge over time what you need to do - how much to scrape.
This is quite different from just "crowing". I feel you still need to visually inspect the reed as well .... both through the cane as well as the surface. I also use a needle micrometer to measure the thickness of the tip surface. Even with a back-light and visual inspection at times it hard to tell the evenness/thickness of the tip.
As for the scraping of the back ... I feel its pretty straight forward. Just determine what length you desire them to be.... depending upon the tonal characteristics and pitch of the reed.
Mark
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-12-03 03:57
Scraping the windows is one of the most overlooked steps to the reedmaking process, but like everything else, is critical that it's done correctly.
All of this does depend on where you place the reed in your mouth. If you take more reed in, make the heart longer and thinner while shortening the windows, if you take less reed in, make the heart shorter but a little thicker and the windows longer.
Start by making an oval on one quadrant of the reed. Then make another oval about 2/3rds the way up and another oval 1/2 up from the 1st oval. Thick of it as "terracing" rather than just random scraping.
Knife technique to scraping the back is important. There is the regular scrape which takes off cane but is not a "gouging" kind of scrape, and there is a dusting kind of scrape. I start with the regular and by the 3rd oval am dusting. You never need to scrape so hard you're just gouging out cane. That is a guaranteed way of having an uneven, and usually over-scraped back. This also creates "ridges" or catches in the reed which stop the vibrations and usually prevent you from getting the 2nd and 3rd C in the crow.
If you're looking straight down a reed and so the two blades follow the x axis, tilt your knife at a 30-35 degree angle rather than just scraping on a flat axis. This will help ensure you maintain the spine correctly. As you scrape, I find it easiest to start just next to where I want the spine and then work your way out until you're scraping just inside the rail. Then, if you need to thin the spine, do it gradually by "pushing" the spine from side to side, as if you're at the beach and you have a ridge of sand in front of you. If you push the ridge of sand to one side, it moves, but it get's a little smaller, and then if you push it back, it gets a little smaller. Same idea.
Know that the windows do the following:
1. They lengthen the vibrations for a fuller rounder sound, and create a less "tippy" tone.
2. a. They close down the reed, usually just behind the heart.
2. b. Because they close down the reed, they'll focus the sound/vibrations a bit.
2. c. Also because the opening is smaller, it requires less air to get a response, so the reed will vibrate quicker without as much air.
3. It will drop the pitch, for better or for worse.
Obviously 2a-c are the most important for the functionality of the reed, so scrape your windows in lightly then test the reed. If you find:
1. You want to pinch the back closed.
2. You need to pinch the reed closed with your embouchure in order to control it.
3. You need to pinch the reed with your embouchure in order for it to respond.
4. Your reed is hard and sharp.
... then you probably need to scrape more out of the back.
The biggest reason why novice reedmakers want to scrape the windows more is because they want a less tippy sound, darker sound, and more resistance, but unless the reed is in balance this will be end up closing the reed down to nothing, flattening a reed a quarter step flat, making the reed impossibly resistant, or a combination of all.
This will all be in my reedmaking book, which I am seriously going to start writing within the next two weeks.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-12-03 11:35
Great information.............
I look forward to your book!
Mark
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-12-03 17:27
Yes, that is a wealth of knowledge Cooper. Thank you.
I've read your post 4 times now, and if I may press further about the location of the "ovals" and "terracing". Would I be correct in this understanding?:
When scraping the back, I could start my first oval in one channel (in between the spine and rail) starting at 52mm (just about the thread) and finish at 55mm. My second oval would begin in the same channel at 56 mm and end at 58 mm. My third oval would being in the same channel at 59mm and end at 61mm. I would repeat this process the same in the other 3 channels. I would then return back to the first channel, expanding the ovals until they blended into one window. Repeat the process the same in the following three channels.
In regards to the spine and rails. Is it true that the rails should remain untouched, and the spine, while not being scraped directly, will be lightly scraped as the windows are expanded?
I'm glad you will be putting all your knowledge down in book form. I look forward to seeing the result.
Drew S.
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Author: oboi
Date: 2012-12-03 19:01
I have a related question that perhaps someone can answer. How smooth should the transition between the heart and windows be? Should there be a blend or an obvious "cliff" between the two? If your knife stops below the heart and you want to make sure the windoww right below the heart are the deepest, it's sort of unavoidable to have at least a small cliff, no?
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-12-04 02:44
Yes, terracing would be correct.
Check Martin's diagram here:
The first oval would start where the scrape begins and goes all the way to the heart. The second oval would start around the 50 and go all the way to the heart. The third oval would go up and maybe even blend into the heart a little bit.
While Martin's diagram has a lot of measurements, I think a lot of the back and heart measurements are within .05mm of variance, according to the gouge and shape, so don't take them too literally.
Regarding the rails, it depends on the gouge. If the sides of the gouge are extremely thick, you WILL have to thin the rails. If you overlap correctly, make sure to narrow the left rail first (inner rail). A good solid gouge however will allow you to leave some decent rails on both sides.
Oboi, I have no cliff, and neither does Martin. It's perfectly avoidable with slow, patient knife technique. This is not to say that you can't have a cliff. I've seen many professionals have one, but they've been very minor and smooth.
The cliff cuts off a lot of vibrations from the heart to the back, and consequentially the bottom octave will be difficult to get until you blow really hard, by which time the tone has no doubt distorted. Once you cut off those vibrations you have no chance at the top C crow as well, so you're really left to a single C, and a simplified tone, lacking complexity and depth. The only time this isn't the case is when the reed is popsicle stick thick and still has little definition anywhere.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2012-12-04 02:45)
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-12-04 02:49
Copper mentions the "ridges or cuts" that can occur, so you have to use the left thumb to push the knife a little (if your right-handed), in order to not have to rotate the right hand so much, which is what can cause the ridges. I think this technique is fairly noticeable in the Mack video. Also, as Cooper implies, you don't want to start too close to the thread. Regards.
R. Still former student
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