 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-11-25 09:05
This link went up last month. John Mack making a reed from start to finish, explaining all the while.
Enjoy!
J.
P.S. - notice how he tests the seal after tying on ..
Post Edited (2012-11-25 11:52)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-11-25 18:02
Thanks,
I especially like the point to play on the reeds for a few days and then adjust gradually..............
I do this .... it always a temptation to rush the process along... and most of the time it never works out well in the end.
One must be persistent and patient.
Day 1 tie the reeds
Day 2 to scrape to open
Day 3 be able to play a crude reed
Day 4 and/or 5 refine the tone and attributes of the reed
Day 6 adjust ....... refine tone, pitch stability, flexibility
Day 7 and more ...... the reed beaks in and ... with a few more (hopefully minor) adjustments a concert quality reed or at least a good back up for rehearsal and home practice.
The cane must settle a bit .... and the saliva also changes the reed.
If the reed starts off really really bad by day 4 .... I just throw it away.
Mark
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-11-27 06:33
Yes, John Mack was possibly the greatest reed maker of all time, having made a lot of reeds for Tabuteau. This is a simply great video and a gift to all of us.
Yet, there are many details not discussed in the video. When one has spent decades of ones life on becoming an artist reed maker, I think that one will not tell all and probably should not give away all secrets for free. Some will not agree and deny this. Gillet was known to turn away from students when he fixed their reeds, so that a lot of his reed fixing skill was not passed to the student.
My teachers told me only the most rudimentary things about reed making but generally did not pass on a lot although they seemed to try to be helpful. Once in a while, a useful bit of information could come up, sometimes only after three years of study. They were wonderful on phrasing and musical things, but reed making information was not easy to get. They sold reeds, but I mostly tried to make them. I think that oboe students must find their own way in reedmaking learning as much as they can from masters like Mack.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-11-27 11:09
Another thing I noticed here ("fancy tip work", 7:30), and similarly in Kerry Willingham's reedmaking close-up video is the angle of attack used when scraping the tip.
JM and KW both use a very shallow angle of attack, practically slicing under the top layer of cane and lifting the fibers away. This ensures that the lower fibers are not deformed or compressed in any way, thus they present well for the next stroke.
I was always taught to scrape with the blade almost vertical - I'm going to try it this way from now on.
J.
Post Edited (2012-11-27 11:29)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-11-27 16:26
The striving for consistency is never ending.
There so many variables .... and we try to make most of them constant.
Yet, cane varies ... and gouger blades become dull .... and instruments vary to some degree .... and of I didn't mention the weather.
So - I can control the shape of the cane, the gouge, the staple, my instrument selection ..... somewhat the batches of cane I buy but never individual cane characteristics.
Even over time ... ones reed making approach may drift at the margins and has to be pulled back on course.
I keep asking myself ---- why do I love the Oboe so much!
I think therefore I exist. NO
I am therefore I exist. No
I play the Oboe therefore I exist. Yes ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Mark
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-11-27 18:44
I agree -- pretty much.
It empowers a student for him* to learn to make/adjust his own reeds. I think such info SHOULD be passed along, as individual students show interest and readiness, but not to the general public.
(I don't think Mr Mack filmed any real close-ups of his 'secrets'.)
In any case, each student DOES need to tweak reed-production for their own most comfortable playing. My teacher let me fix my own reeds, he didn't adjust them for me. But he was a superb reedmaker and I learned almost as much from just listening to him play as I did from our few reed-making lessons.
*or 'her', of course
GoodWinds
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-11-28 03:53
Wes wrote:
> John Mack was possibly the greatest reed maker of all time, having made a >lot of reeds for Tabuteau.
Do a little more research and come back to this statement.
>Gillet was known to turn away from students when he fixed their reeds, so >that a lot of his reed fixing skill was not passed to the student.
I don't know if this is true for Georges Gillet who was Tabuteau's professor at the Paris conservatory, but I know this isn't true for Ferdinand Gillet of Boston, who didn't even make his own reeds, but rather had his students make them for him. This IS true for de Lancie however.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-11-28 04:03
Not sure why the website won't let me edit my previous post...
David Weber told me to buy the Orcas Island Music Festival DVD four years ago, and while it does go by quickly, the most profound thing I learned was how much he does just by judging the crow.
In the past two days, I've scraped 50 reeds all without testing a single one in my oboe. I spent about 10-15 minutes each. This morning I went through each reed, and played them. About half of them didn't need adjustment, while the other half needed 5 minutes worth of fixing.
I'm not sure about short scraped reeds, but for American reeds, making reeds just by judging the crow is a far more effective way than merely adjusting them by how they sound in your oboe. Your oboe lies. It can hide imperfections in your reeds which you won't discover until the most inopportune time. The crow can hide anything, and if you can't make the crow sound ideal, then chances are you're going to have a good reed.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-11-28 10:59
Someone should produce a master class and/or make an instructional video demonstrating in detail the "crow(s)" and each adjustment.
Mark
PS: I think I will record the crows of my reeds as I make them. And record the crows of my very good finished reeds too.
I kind of know what sounds good ... but maybe I need to be more scientific and consistent in the process.
I probably rely on playing my Oboe in the process too much.
Post Edited (2012-11-28 11:31)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-11-28 20:32
I think you're right about this. ESPECIALLY if you're making reeds for other people.
GoodWinds
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-11-28 23:00
Cooper (or anyone who knows):
The Orcas Island DVD clip of John Mack you were referring to. Is that the same clip as the clip that started this thread, or is it a different video recording? I am interested in getting as much information as I can, but if I don't need to waste money, I'm happier for it. (Not that it would be waste, you know what I mean).
Drew S.
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Author: JMarzluf
Date: 2012-11-28 23:55
I own the Orcas Island DVD as well. The video that I have seen posted online, short as it is, IS the entire segment that was included on the DVD; and, incidentally, appears to be of the same resolution/quality (or lack thereof). However, it is still a worthy purchase!
Jonathan
http://www.marzlufreeds.com/
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-12-01 19:46
I couldn't help making a humorous comment on this video on youtube, re the use of the word "arcane" on the title page. Interestingly, while the meaning of the word, arcane, doesn't seem to have anything to do with oboe cane, it has everything to do with the knowledge and skill required to make good oboe reeds. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: johnt
Date: 2012-12-01 20:36
I'm sure the pun was intended. John Mack had a steel trap mind.
Best,
john
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-12-01 21:25
Some points I found interesting (hopefully you do as well):
Instrument makers use metalworking tools on Grenadilla wood.
He uses silk thread to tie on reeds. (Does anyone else do this? Is it expensive or hard to find?)
When scraping, Mr. Mack seems to support the blade of his knife with his left finger nail. I would assume he must apply and minute but of pressure with this hand.
And I found amusing, at 1:21, Mr. Mack is describing the staple (tube) to the camera, but I believe the camera person is not familiar with the term, for the focus of the camera is on the Mandrel.
At the risk of talking too much I'll leave this post at that.
Drew S.
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Author: oboi
Date: 2012-12-01 23:25
That Kerry Willingham set of videos was very helpful, thanks for providing it.
The more and more I look at these videos, the more I realize that I pull way too tight on my thread and I think that is the major reason why my reeds suck.
I've been interested in trying out silk thread, although it seems to be short supply and kinda expensive. Saw some FF silk thread spools on Ebay, but still rather expensive. Might check beading stores locally, too. Most FF silk thread I've found comes in mini cards rather than spools. I went about the wrong way looking at fabric stores and wondering why no one carries this type of silk thread!!! Rather, beading stores will have thicker sizes of thread, so you may have better luck there.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2012-12-01 23:55
Criterion Thread in New York sells Gudebrod Silk FF thread (phone: 1-800-695-0080) (email: info@cthread.com) I use it; you have to be careful not to pull too much or it will snap. The advantage is that it doesn't stretch as does nylon. I use Rice nylon FF also. There is no difference between the two, except that you can pull a little tighter with the nylon. Rice is no longer made, unfortunately.
I also have FF nylon from The Thread Exchange in Weaverville, North Carolina. Parachute thread. Works great. Tons of it. I'll be dead before I use it all.
Best,
john
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-12-02 04:30
I don't know how you find it John, but I'm grateful for the tip.
I've toyed with Silk and Nylon, and really don't see a difference. Mr. Weber believes silk is superior, but I wouldn't overanalyze the importance of one or the other. The more important factor is that you tie it correctly, with the overlap laid correctly, consistently so that it doesn't leak. Do that first and you will have your first step towards a good reed. Otherwise, you'll never have a consistent reed.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-12-02 07:12
Regarding "tying too tight" - I'm with you there.
Note that this is only relevant for the topmost two or three turns of thread. You can pull as tight as you like further down and this is probably a good thing, since it will prevent split ends from travelling higher up the cane.
A guide to thread tightness is how thin it looks once you've completed the wrap.
Note that a bassoon reed (think "oboe big brother") has no staple at all. The thread and wires hold the throat of the reed firmly open with the sides sealing all the way up, but without crushing. This is what we are trying to achieve with our thinner, more delicate cane.
J.
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Author: oboi
Date: 2012-12-02 10:00
Very interesting. After your comment I was compelled to check out some bassoon reed tutorials. Ugh, remind me to never take up bassoon. So complicated! :-P But good analogy.
I've lessened my tension by a lot in the last few ties and I still get a good seal at the top of the thread. Is that the goal.... tight enough to seal at tie-off point and no more? I usually have good seals there and my issues are always flaring blades so that I have leaks up very high.
What's consistent in basically every video I watch is that the tying-on process is a smooth and fluid process.... one which cannot be done if one has a "death grip" on the mandrel and spool.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-12-02 10:28
Disclaimer: I'm no pro, but I've been making successful reeds for 30-odd years.
Quote:
Is that the goal.... tight enough to seal at tie-off point and no more? I usually have good seals there and my issues are always flaring blades so that I have leaks up very high.
That is the goal as far as the wrapping is concerned. the seal up the sides is a function of several different factors:
1. The shape. The more flared [i.e., broad tip (~7.1mm), narrowing sides down to the staple throat] the better it will seal. I realize this is a gross oversimplification, but the thought-experiment of what happens if the reed sides are parallel and then curve inwards, seems to show that a shallow V-shape will seal better than parallel sides.
Note: I am making no judgments about tone here. I am only referring to strength of seal down the sides.
2. The curvature of the throat of the staple. The staple imparts the edges of the cane with a twist through almost 90 degrees, and this twist gradually unwinds to the tip. The rounder the oval at throat, the more twist is imparted. Probably has more effect closer to the binding.
3. The conical shape of the staple angles the blades together. The flatter the oval, the greater the angle (viz. point 2, I think this has more effect closer to the tip).
So, getting that perfect seal all the way up is a complicated business and probably needs a lot more thought - but choice of staple and shape are critical factors, together with tie-on length and tension
J.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-12-02 10:50
If your blades are "flaring apart" at the top so that they are loose, it is usually your gouge which has either too thick or two thin sides, or your cane which isn't straight enough. You would probably be able to guess if your sides are either too thick or too thin; either your openings are gigantic or your openings are smaller and the top register (above octave A) are saggy.
If neither is the case, it could be the straightness of the cane.
Try tying your blank, and then scraping some off the tip immediately and letting it dry unclipped. That usually settles the reed a bit for me. If that's not enough, scrape just the bark off the heart as well, leaving a full spine and rails. If that still doesn't settle the flared sides, then you're probably in big trouble.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-12-02 15:25
I by no means am making perfect reeds currently. However, to second CJ's point about "flaring blades". My tutor, Mr. Schneider here in Philadelphia, was a student of Mr. Mack's, and professes to have spend countless hours (late in the evening no less) making reeds for Mr. Mack (I'm not sure for his performance or for his own learning, but I digress).
In a lesson I was concerned with my reeds flaring, and I was instructed that this could be a sign that the cane has been processed poorly. Whether it be a result of an improper gouge, curved cane, or just poor cane in general, these seem to be some of the first factors to look into if this becomes a recurrent problem.
This is a difficult problem for myself as a new oboist, for I am at the mercy of others to choose and prepare cane. So while many of my reeds seal as they should, I lately have just accepted the following as truth: Until I can control the whole process from start to finish (i.e. when I learn enough to make the investment in my own gouger and other preparation tools), it is inevitable that in the mass production market some mistakes will slip past the radar. If the problem becomes consistent, it might be pertinent to experiment with another supplier to test which part of the process is really at fault.
Drew S.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-12-02 16:16
Cooper is absolutely right - I always check my gouged cane for flatness before I start, so I didn't mention it as a possibility.
Put the gouged, unshaped cane down on a flat surface (say a tabletop), shiny side down. Sight along the table to see where the cane touches the table. Ideally it should be perfectly flat. If it bows upwards in the middle more than a fraction of a millimetre - throw it away. It will never seal and you'll just waste hours of work trying to make it play.
Thanks, Cooper!
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Author: johnt
Date: 2012-12-02 17:18
You can bend the cane immediately after it is split to make it flat & before it is guillotined/gouged, with one caveat: it has to be straight along each side. If it bows up in the middle (Jeremy's table top test), bend the ends GENTLY until it flattens. You have to use two hands, thumbs & forefingers to do this. If it bows up at each end, this is a better situation…"the smiley face"…the reed will actually tend to seal better in this instance. Linda Strommen (University of Indiana at Bloomington) & Jonathan Dlouhy (former principal oboist at Toronto & Atlanta) both advocate this method of making the cane do what you want it to do. To quote John Mack: "Never take 'no' from an inanimate object." I also split, twist/bend, guillotine & gouge the cane dry. It gets its first soak just before shaping. Saves time & works just as well or probably better than soaking the living c**p out of it before shaping/tying.
What works works.
Best,
john
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