 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-09 11:17
I've decided to take the plunge and fit a LH C# key to my kingwood Howarth S5. So far it's linked to the C key but will in due course be linked to the C# touchpiece.
I've designed this mechanism so no extra pillars are needed - it uses all the existing ones and the banana key pillars have been changed for two pillars of the same height.
Next job is fitting the clutch for the D#-E trill linkage and then the low Bb-B linkage which is right at the bottom of the instrument as soldering a tab to the underside of the low B touch interferes with the mechanism, so playing LH Eb will tip the low Bb touch over which will give C# instead. And then finally removing the link from the C key and fitting a new C# touch with a link and adjusting screw.
I'm pretty much at the point of no return!
Attached photos in next reply.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-09-09 11:46)
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-09-09 12:38
Chris, that is ingenious! I am used to seeing extra lever for C#. I wonder how it will affect the adjustment sensitivity. It surely be more sensitive to adjustment than having separate key.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-09 13:44
Neither of the feather keys are sprung and the adjusting screws will fine tune the amount of free play in them - they're freely floating between both points of contact between the linkages they actuate (just like the Eb/Bb feather keys on oboes and the Eb/B feather keys on d'amores, cors and oboes built to low B). The amount of travel in the C# touch is fairly minimal so there's no danger of catching the LH F key when using it.
It will be much easier to adapt this mechanism for d'amores and cors that only descend to low B, so that may be my next venture.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-09-09 15:23
Chris - it's brilliant. You should patent the mechanism and sell it to Howarths, Marigaux etc.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-09-09 16:57
Chris, this is amazing. Putting it in the palm does make more sense than adding another lever.
I mostly like the idea that no more posts (or holes) are required: I mean, WHY is an extra/separate axle required for the 3rd 8va key????
It seems the left-hand pinky is unduly busy compared to the right. BUT the weight of the instrument on the thumb does mean extra tension present be default in the entire hand.
I agree with the comment on patenting and selling: I don't know about Europe, but in Canada, you have a year to file after a public disclosure.... the BBoard IS a public disclosure!!!
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: A.U.K
Date: 2011-09-09 18:02
Well I'm in awe and terribly impressed as to how you managed to work it all out.. I did get rather lost reading your description but I am not the least mechanical and frankly a bit thick when it comes to this sort of thing..
That aside, I am wondering why you have felt the need to come up with this, I'm not taking anything away from your triumph over the keywork issue but I am intrigued as to what made you forge ahead with this..
I presume you will silver plate the additional keywork to blend it in and finish it..
Very clever of you though..
Andrew
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2011-09-09 19:21
Excellent solution.
My 1930s "Buck Rogers" model Triebert oboe
(Triebert, not Couesnon "Triebert")
has a mechanism reminiscent of Chris' solution.
I have posted some photographs of the Triebert oboe with the left F touch removed to show the left C# mechanism.
The left C# key touch on the Triebert is in the same position as Chris' retrofit.
The Triebert also has the "Bleuzet system" (lever off the ring D key) that actuates (governs) the Eb key-cup lever when lefty Eb is pressed to accomplish a perfect D#-E trill. Also has left F, F resonance, 3rd octave.
I love having a left C# on my Hiniker oboe.
A left C# is now standard on all new Hiniker oboes.
I prefer the lever type touch for left C# inboard of the left F touch, than having it be like a left "Eb" touch.
I have bent the left C# touch upwards on the Triebert so I do not feel as though I am 'fishing' for the key.
I am astonished that all of the high end makers do not offer left C# as standard. It could not possibly cost much more (if anything) in the manufacturing process to eliminate the (dumb) "banana key," and simply have a left C#.
I am lobbying a couple of makers now (Puchner and Bulgheroni, though it is difficult to buck tradition.
Puchner at least offers the left C# as an option.
With best wishes,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-09 23:37
Good to see a very similar mechanism has already been made! I've wondered if a similar style LH C# mechanism has been made before. I've seen a few oboes where the LH F touch is placed where I've put the C# (and the long C# is where the LH F key is now situated) - Leon Goossens' thumbplate system Loree had the LH F and C# in that configuration, but I wanted to keep the LH F in the usual position.
I've now finished the D#-E lever and clutch so that's the feather keys all finished, removed the banana key link from the C key and fitted a C# touchpiece with the linkage arm, but the rocker will need to be L-shaped (like the Triebert one) to reduce the amount of travel in the LH C# touch. At the moment it moves as much as the LH Eb touch which isn't bad, but it's still better to reduce the travel as much as possible.
I fitted the C# linkage arm with an adjusting screw, but it's probably best without one so I'll just fit a plain one there instead. There's already an adjusting screw in the mechanism (on the LH C#/low Bb key barrel) so no real need for an extra one where there's a fair amount of sliding motion which will mean the screw tip will wear the silencing material.
The main reason I want a LH C# is I find sliding between low C and low C# pretty awkward, plus saxes and clarinets have a LH C# key so why not add one to my oboe as well? I tried it out earlier and it's doing almost exactly what I want of it (apart from the amount of travel which I'll sort out in due course).
It's trial and error making this as I haven't done anything this involved and realised there's more I didn't factor into the mechanism such as linking the low B and Bb as that can't be done in the usual manner, so it is a pretty major undertaking but the effort will be worthwhile.
I'll have to leave it looking as it is for a while until I don't need it, then I'll have the keywork silver plated. Didn't exactly pick the best time to do this as I've got a lot of oboe playing over the next few months, but I do have my plastic back-up oboe which I could use instead, but it would be good to road-test this one.
It'll be like driving around in a car with various panels in grey primer before having the final paintjob!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-09 23:42
Attachment: linkages 001.JPG (157k)
Attached is a photo of the D#-E trill linkage and clutch, plus the new C# touchpiece and linkage arm.
The reason why the bridge is sticking out so much is so it'll fit in any case without any danger of anything getting bent or damaged. It's inline with the feather key pillars as you're looking along the length of the lower joint.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-09-09 23:47)
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-09-09 23:45
I think it's a great idea. I don't know of too many people that do or can use the banana key anyway. A lot of clarinets are now made standard with a left Eb - the last of the pinky keys to be duplicated on both sides. Why not us as well? (Did I mention that I like keywork??)
Before I purchased my Marigaux, I hired an old Howarth S5 from the 50s. It had the LH C# key in the exact configuration as yours, Chris, however someone at some stage had disengaged the mechanism and it wasn't connected to anything. Why, I don't know! I have a picture somewhere of the key stack, but not of the actual mechanism, unfortunately.
Rachel
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2011-09-09 23:59
Hi Chris-
Your description of the process you have followed to make the left C#
retrofit a reality should win an OBB award!
I am always amazed that saxophone does not have a RIGHT C#
as well as a left C#...
To be a oboe repair person, it seems three qualities will be required:
1) innate mechanical skills
2) the mind of a crime scene investigator
3) the patience of Job
With best wishes,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-10 00:04
Although a LH C# is a nice thing to have, in any configuration it is a pain to fit as with the lever style one it does mean more pillars in the instrument and a differently shaped LH F key arm that has to arch over the LH C# key outer pillar.
The LH C# lever itself isn't the most aesthetically pleasing piece of keywork as it is a fair bit of metal, but it's probably much easier to fit and is definitely much simpler in its action than the doubled feather keys version which will need the low B key linked to the bell key linkage so both low B and Bb pads close together. At the moment they're unlinked on mine (although low Bb can still be played by closing both low B and Bb touches together) until I add the linkage.
So if this version had to be built, it will be pretty expensive due to the amount of work involved. Most key pieces can be adapted from existing pieces, but some (such as the feather key touches) will require some cutting and shutting to get them the desired shape and lengths.
I haven't had much to go on with this, only the idea and plan I sketched out freehand which I'm using as a guide (the original version is at Howarth's which I used various highlighter pens to show which pieces are all pinned to the steel and the pieces which are independent. I don't do keywork alterations all the time and have never made an entire oboe from scratch - only finishing instruments, but have done some keywork alterations to some of my own instruments. Fortunately it's all coming together nicely, otherwise it could end up being an expensive mess to sort out!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-09-10 00:09)
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2011-09-10 01:45
Hi Cooper,
I surmise this must be a login still on my computer from the time you were visiting here... Ghost in the machine...
Cheers,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-11 17:38
Attachment: lh_c_sharp_mech 001.JPG (164k)
Attachment: lh_c_sharp_mech 002.JPG (164k)
Attachment: lh_c_sharp_mech 003.JPG (167k)
Attachment: lh_c_sharp_mech 004.JPG (159k)
It's all finished now (apart from being tidied up) and is working pretty well. Attached are four more photos of how it is until it's all papered up and plated. The bell key link has a cut-out in the bend so it can close the low B key (which took some doing to find the ideal point of contact, hence the amount of soldering work done to it where I've filled in the cut-out and started again!).
Due to the leverages, the action of the LH C# key is a bit on the heavy side, but I've seen where more leverage can be gained to make it lighter to use - the clutch can be moved higher up the joint and the D#-E trill linkage arm can have a bend so it runs around the RH3 fingerplate, then a longer rocker can be used so the linkage piece from the LH C# key can actuate it further away from the pillars.
Another possibility is to have the D#-E clutch mounted the oother way round and lower down (which will put it right by the banana key pillars) and have a longer linkage for the LH C# (about as long as a banana key) that arches over the D#-E linkage arm and actuated from the LH C# key barrel from higher up the lower joint.
Nothing is impossible and I might have another crack at it! Structurally there's no harm done and anything I have done so far can still be reversed. The only thing I have done to the instrument body is milling a slot under the low B linkage (as you'd have on d'amores and cors) so that can always be filled in easily enough.
The extra keywork has added noticeable weight as this oboe now balances differently - it's no longer top heavy which is something I like about kingwood oboes. The balance is more like a blackwood one now.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-09-11 21:36)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-12 11:53
Attachment: feather keys 001.JPG (164k)
Attachment: feather keys 002.JPG (162k)
One thing that isn't obvious due to the angles I took the previous photos from is the LH C# touch isn't on the same plane as the LH Eb touch (see attached photos).
The C# touch is raised up higher to make it easy to reach and is almost level with the LH F key touch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-09-12 13:44
Now I got a clearer picture of how it is working. I like it! I wish all the oboe family instrument have this key available. That would make our lives a little easier. Great job!!
How much would you charge for retrofitting an oboe?
I am not sure this is the same as the one Mark showed. I cannot tell how that one exactly works.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-13 17:03
I dread to think how much this sort of keywork alteration would cost!
I've got two other versions of the feather key and rocker linkage in mind which I'll be making over the next couple of weeks to see which version works best. All the other parts of the mechanism (RH C# linkage and low Bb-B linkage) will remain unchanged, so I can replace just the feathers and the rocker (which goes where the banana key would be) instead of having to change everything and also be able to swap them round to make direct comparisons.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-16 16:49
Attachment: 2nd_version 001.JPG (168k)
Attachment: 2nd_version 002.JPG (161k)
Attached are photos of the 2nd version which has a shorter bridge, a longer rocker to lighten the action on the LH C# touch and the D#-E trill linkage bends around the RH3 fingerplate.
The 3rd version will have a rocker that's longer still (to further lighten the action of the LH C# touch) which arches over the D#-E trill linkage - a con bar piece is the ideal shape for this as it already has the arch in it and the hole drilled in it for the key barrel is in the right place.
Once that third version has been made, I'll have three different sets of feathers and their corresponding rockers to try out to find the best one and will post photos of all three together so you can see the differences.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-09-16 17:34)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-25 07:35
Attachment: georges duval oboe.jpg (52k)
I've just seen a photo of a Georges Duval oboe with a similar LH C# mechanism to the Triebert oboe - see attached photo.
And on closer inspection of the Triebert photos I now realise why a lot of older oboes have two adjusting screws on the Eb pad cup (one of which is redundant) - with an extra piece of mechanism fitted that links the Eb pad cup to the RH3 ring it makes for a D#-E trill.
The Eb pad closes while RH3 is raised and lowering the RH3 ring allows the Eb pad to open again provided the LH Eb key is used - the linkage is sprung heavily enough to close the weaker spring of the Eb pad cup. Selmer (Paris) did a similar thing on their oboes instead of using the more common split D#-E trill found on full Gillet conservatoire oboes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-11-25 07:50)
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-11-25 13:12
I saw a couple of second hand Kreul open ring oboes on sale at Howarth with the same key arrangement.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-25 15:59
That's the older arrangement with the LH F touch below the LH Eb and the LH C# is a long lever key (with the touchpiece where the LH F would normally lie nowadays).
Eugene Goossens' old Loree had exactly the same arrangement of the LH F and C# as this Kreul. The disadvantage of this arrangement is if the linkage piece from the LH F key is longer and you have fat fingers, you'll feel the linkage piece for the F key poke or nudge your RH middle finger whenever you play a low Bb as it's fixed directly to the key barrel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-11-25 16:05
Yes, yes, I see it. The usual left F key is the C#. Left F is below left Eb. I would rather have them the other way around.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-02-20 15:15
Attachment: s5 001.JPG (698k)
Attached is a photo of my S5 now the keywork has all been plated and refitted. Looks so much better now than when it was all multi-coloured!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2012-02-20 17:13
Chris, that is an impressive looking key stack!!
Oh, and what an amazing job you did of the 901 overhaul (it wouldn't let me 'like' it on Facebook). Oh, how I wish mine looked like that!
Rachel
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2012-02-21 06:17
Chris, you did an amazing job! That is one SERIOUSLY beautiful oboe! I wonder what it would look like in rose gold plating :P
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-02-21 10:41
May I share this on Facebook?
Clarinettists have often boasted of the duplicated keys for the pinky of each hand. We must admit there is room for improvement on the oboe.
Chris, I think your work on this one is a huge step forward.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2013-03-13 17:20
As I recall Leon (not Eugene) Goossens's 1907 Loree didn't have a left F. Just four touches (Bb, B, Eb and C#) for the left pinky
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-13 18:15
It does - see the photos by page 160 (plate 13) in his book - the LH C# is the long lever and the LH F touch is directly below the LH Eb touch. You can also see the linkage from the C# key on plate 3 (just after page 32).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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