 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2011-08-07 13:25
Hello,
I have been experimenting with several shapes in the past few months after about 15 happy years with a Ruth -2.
(Why?, you may ask: because I've moved to Berlin and am playing at 442 instead of 440, and because -- though there is much to be said for something that works just fine -- there are so many things one can try in order to find something stellar instead of just good. In addition, I was living at quite an altitude for a number of years, and now I'm at sea level.)
I am likely going to buy a shaping machine soon. I have never been a genius at taking off exactly the same amount on both sides in order to fit the cane over the shaper tip, and it shows in my results. The sides are often uneven (not a gouger issue -- only post-shaping), try though I may.
Looking at the list of available shapes in the Reeds 'n' Stuff catalog, I am a bit lost. I know what wider and narrower shapes in general do, but as for the various specific areas, it's new territory for me. Udo Heng measures at the tip (there are no ears when using the shaping machine), 10 mm., 25 mm., and 34 mm. I'm going to ask him why, but in the meantime I'd be very grateful for any information you can provide on the specific impact (on intonation, sound, amount of vibration, etc.) of each of these dimensions.
Many thanks!
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-08-07 14:01
I have experimented with shapers, but not enough to answer the specific questions you ask. I can still say this:
1. there is a huge interplay between the staple size and the shape size
2. I find it's the transition between the 10-25mm and the 25-34mm that makes the difference: in other words, how can you describe in words the belly and the lay.
I have found, for my own purposes, that a distinct difference between the belly and the lay is favourable for both vibration (I like a harsh crow) and intonation (stability on a Lorée). That is, a triangular belly and a more parallel lay rather than a gradual curve from thorat to tip. Also, the continuous curve (e.g. RDG) has the tone colour change from dark long notes (most holes closed) to brighter short notes (most holes open) on the Lorée.... might be different on other instruments. BUT, I do a modified short scrape, if you do Philly scrape, this might not hold true.
That being said, a fatter belly gives a more German sound, but they are more difficult to manage in terms of tuning and stability. Possibly, if you do the Berlinner thing and go for Püchner or Mönning, that might be less of an issue.... I can't wait to try for myself!
My favourite reeds use Kunibert Michel (you can get templates for Hortnagl shapers) 725 on Chiarugi 3 staples and 750 (for oboe d'amore) on Chiarugi 7 staples (I make oboe reeds this way). The former allows me to play easily at 440 or 442, but the latter is much lower than 440.... I have to experiment with shorter staples and shorter cane: it seems that the shorter staples alone don't suffice to bring up tuning. KM 720 and 710 appear to be more popular than the ones I use.
Best of luck and please let us know of your own findings!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-08-07 14:16
One tip - For some reason, the dimensions of cane shaped from such machines (hortnagl also) often varies from the "real" dimensions of the shaper form. I would advise that you make a decision based on having Udo Heng send you samples of shaped cane instead of relying on his measurement chart. This is not to say that Udo's machines are not precise, i have a gouging machine of his and it is amazingly easy to use to say the least. In fact, this inconsistency in shaping is even used by some reed makers like K. Ge to determined the size of the cane, i.e. different results when shaped wet or dry. H70 is a popular shape for most European players. I have a machine shaper form in this model that i bought accidentally (they said it was a shaper tip which was of course completely wrong and was not willing to take it back), if do ever purchase this shaping machine, let me know if you want to buy my unused H70 form!
Howard
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2011-08-07 14:40
Wow, thank you both very much for all of this information.
I will certainly get some shaped cane from Udo Heng before making any decisions. I am hoping to go see him in a few weeks, in fact.
I do play a Moennig (I've only had it since March and will perform on it for the first time in early Sept.) and I'm very happy with it, after playing Loree for nearly 20 years. Ludwig Frank is a genius and a very good person as well. Yes, the pitch in the upper register is indeed easier to manage, but I am a small person and need all the help I can get!
I use a regular American scrape, finishing rather long at 72 or a bit longer, and with less out of the back/windows than many Americans.
The killer has been switching to 46 mm. staples, but it's all starting to come together. Recently I've been excited about both Caleb and Nagamatsu 0 B. I have used Chudnow cork-free staples for many years, but am also very pleased with Rigoutat cork staples. I have a lot more to learn about the relationship between staple and shape.
Howard: I'm not quite sure what you refer to in terms of inconsistency with the shaping machine. I understand that you're saying the measurements in the chart may not line up with the actual results; are the results themselves consistent if you treat the cane consistently (soaking always the same amount of time)?
Thanks again, and of course I will update with new findings...
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-08-07 15:45
Yes you are right. The difficulty is then finding out what IS correct....so for that matter it would take so much time i wouldn't even bother!
Do you play now an AM model or the normal moennigs? I visited LF's 3 days in a row when i was there few weeks ago to try instruments among other things. Do you play professionally now in Berlin? Must be interesting, being an American style player in Europe!
Howard
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2011-08-07 16:50
Thanks again, especially for the link, Robin. Your comments are really brilliant. I've read on your site but hadn't found this bit. What you say about the shape becoming wider, essentially, if one folds after shaping rather than before makes perfect sense. I will keep this in mind when trying the shaping machine.
Well, Howard, I'm just getting started in Europe. My first public performance is in a few weeks. It's been very hard making adjustments and not performing after 10 years of an active career. Yes, I have a new AM model. Mr. Frank changed the half-hole for me to a deeper, American one as I was getting some weird squeaks at first with certain slurs.
In terms of American style playing in Europe, yes, it's not easy -- especially in Germany, and especially in Berlin! However, things are opening up a bit: one well-known player here is Washington Barella, and he uses an Innoledy gouge and American reeds. One of my big revelations came after Albrecht Mayer suggested a high C# fingering to me (the regular one, but without the low C key). He commented that the throat must be very relaxed in order for it to be in tune. I worked on it for a couple of days and then thought it was kind of ridiculous to play one note with an open throat when all the others fell out of tune that way. Well, with time I decided to just try opening up all the time. It was a bit scary at first, but I realize now that the throat muscles have everything to do with sound both because of the shape of the resonance chamber (a.k.a. mouth) and because it seems to change my embouchure a bit. Remarkably, when I play with the throat relaxed, the sound at once becomes soloistic and -- European! (I'm still usually using my old C# fingering, though now I'm a lot more flexible.)
So, yes, with the 46 staples and the new Moennig, I need to get the shape just right. Of course, we know too that the length at which we tie will affect things.
By the way, I don't know what the etiquette is for a thread that morphs. Perhaps my comments about the throat, etc. belong in a separate post. If so, sorry about that.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-08-07 19:03
That is quite the compliment, thank you!
Kunibert Michel shapers (fold-over) MIGHT still be available at oboe-shop.de
Herr Michel is still around and it is possible to get oboe-shop to order some, although they might ask for another order to justify the trouble. I ordered an extra 600$ worth of stuff to get 3 KM shaper tips + handle... I really don't regret it!
But Hortnagl (possibly also Udo Heng) claim to have the equivalent in templates for their machines. My recommendation: do like I did and ask for samples! It takes at leat 40 pieces of each shape to make a choice: quality of cane, age, grain density, defects in workmanship.... these and other factors make it really hard to judge a shape. Furthermore, I wanted to try the shapes on different staples. The big Pisoni and Chiarugi remain my favourite, although Stevens are not far behind.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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