 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-03-23 12:13
I find that when I slur to D from a lower note, it simply doesn't come out 95% of the time, I get a half-hearted 'G' sound instead. The Marigaux is quite sensitive in regards to ensuring the half hole is definitely clear for the notes requiring it, and I find that if I play the D without the first finger (like C#), it speaks, albeit out of tune.
Is this a technique thing, and if so does anyone have any tips? Or could it be an oboe thing?
Thanks,
Rachel
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-03-23 12:41
What fingering are you using for high D? There are alternatives. The one I usually use is exx oxoC, where e means half-hole.
Also, be aware that the diamond-shaped half-hole aperture is extremely sensitive to changes - say, if part of it is blocked.
roll forward on the reed when you are approaching a slur up to high D - more reed in the mouth will help the higher notes speak easily. And of course ..
try a different reed
J.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-23 12:48
Yup, every reed is different.
That's sometimes I use full open hole, sometimes half hole. Sometimes I add the RH middle, sometimes not. This is one of those things where not only every reed requires different treatments, but also every day!
Try it out a few minutes before your serious play and develop an intuition for it!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-03-23 12:56
If it speaks more easily with your index finger raised but is too sharp, you can try adjusting the height of that key. It is one screw, and adjusting it will only affect that note (and of course, top C#).
Once you have D in tune and C# still speaks easily, you can adjust the C# intonation with the tiny screw on the bottom C key that raises/lowers the height of RH middle-finger key when bottom C is pressed.
BTW, these two screws are almost unique in that they affect nothing else, though if you over-tighten the screw on bottom C you can prevent bottom C from sealing correctly.
J.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-03-23 12:58
Answer is "Philadelphia D key"!, or make special reed for it or fake it.
How many times do you encounter in your life that such passage being so mandatory and so desperately exposed?
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-03-23 13:26
Thanks guys, I will experiment! It is with all of my reeds so it is either me or oboe or both.
JRC, I am aware of the Philadelphia D key, but could you explain what it looks like and what it does? Is it standard on any oboes, or only an option?
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-03-23 13:54
No, it is not standard in all oboe. Some have and some don't. You can special order it.
It works like this:
When you depress C-key with your pinky, there is a link under it that would also close the ring cover of the E-hole (that is your 4th finger cover). Now you can see why your 4th finger hole cover has a hole in the middle of it and the ring.
Google Philadelphia D key. You will see many entries.
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-23 14:31
I had the same problem on my old Loree and 1st Covey.
John Mack (Mack Camp circa 1981) showed me what he did.
Quickly lift the LH first finger, then return it to half-hole position.
The return to close the half-hole solves the pitch problem.
Its a very quick and gentle motion with practice and introduces no blips or pops, etc.
That brings me to 99% reliability on all performance quality reeds going to high D.
My newer Covey has the high-D Philly facilitator mechanism, and I LOVE it.
Its 99% w/o further interference, but if needed, the same trick makes it 100%.
Mack suggested starting with A - D slurs, then moving up and down toe scale to master it from other notes.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-23 16:06
Hi Rachel,
I assume that you being from Australia, that you play short scrape reeds yes?
Firstly, with a European setup, lifting the index finger for all notes above 2nd octave C is "standard". So my next question is, do you lift for your middle register or do you half hole? Yes or no, you would have to set the index finger key quite low, almost closing, for the optimum response of the higher register.
If you finger C# without, why do you finger D with the first finger? If the D is sharp simply add fingers to compensate. And from the way you describe it i believe your C# is easy yes?
So, a good fingering scheme is thus:
C# =
OXX | XOO + c key (standard)
OXX | XOO (german, if you use very small staples)
OXX | XOX + c key (if it's sharp, this is what i do)
D =
OXX | OOO + c key (standard)
OXX | OOO (german, if you use very small staples)
OXX | OOX (OR) OXO (OR EVEN) OXX + c key (i use the first one because the pitch is good for my oboe and also because it's smooth from the C# fingering i use; but sometimes even the 2nd one when i have to play D very very loudly.)
Since most of these fingerings require the use of the C key, these things should be considered:
1. The height of the E pad in relation to C key. To find out how much is correct, first decide on one fingering (the standard ones SHOULD work...), then, play a top C (in tune), and with no change at all in the breath and embouchure, slur to a top C#, if it's sharp, screw down the C key more, i.e. the E pad goes down more, vice versa. Try that with high D as well. Eventually you will find a balance. So if you get that balance right and D then becomes flat or sharp, change the fingering scheme to suit the best. The height will somehow affect the response of these notes as well. Tricky, i know. But a few days of experimenting and with a few different reeds should produce a definite setup.
Also...
2. The condition of half hole plate. For myself, i find it very useful to wax the diamond hole and after create a hole the diameter of the diamond hole itself (without the edges on top and bottom of course, resulting a circular hole instead of a diamond...). This flattens the middle register (i.e. c#-d#, which is often sharp on many oboes) as well as removes the airy stuffy feeling associated with it. But most importantly, this seems to help the response of the upper register with fingerings that don't require half holing. Also, the height of this key has to be quite low in my experience, almost closing. Having said that, i have played many super instruments that don't require any of these, so if step 1 is done and you have no problems, let the diamond be forever!
3. Reeds? The smaller the staple the flatter the 3rd octave. This is the general rule. In France where a lot of cane is left on the reed and many use big Glotin type staples, having the e pad completely down is common. A big opening never helps so be sure that is not the culprit behind all your problems beforehand.
The ultimate test would be to attack these notes as softly as possible. Should be easiest thing in the world! Then slurring to them from any other note should pose no problems at all.
Good luck!
Regards,
Howard
Post Edited (2011-03-23 16:10)
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Author: oboereed1109
Date: 2011-03-23 16:07
I definitely think you should look into getting a Philadelphia high D key. What is does is hold down bottom ring which is your third finger right hand. There is a screw right on top of the C key. The Philadelphia high D has a screw right next to it. I have the Philadelphia high D key on my oboe, and can't imagine my life without it. I had it put on my prior oboe, too. John Symer can do this for you with no problem. He's done many of them.
Back when I was studying with Lou Rosenblatt, he said "Don't blow" when slurring up to high D. That does help somewhat, but nothing to me is better than the Philadelphia high D.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2011-03-23 16:23
Hi, Rachel. Many players instinctively "bite" high notes, and that's a problem for ascending slurs to high D. As an exercise, replace high D with low D (not half-hole D). For example, turn an ascending slur from G5 to D6 into a descending slur from G5 to D4. You'll have to relax your embouchure and lower your jaw to make the downward slur consistently smooth. Master the passage like that. Then play it as written, but use the same embouchure for the high D that you used for the low D. Maintain pitch with air speed, not embouchure pressure. Ultimately, you'll have more control of pitch, dynamics, and tone color in the high range; and your ascending slurs to high D will become reliable.
Also, you don't have to have a Philly D key to use the Philly D fingering. Just press the rim of the D key with your RH 3rd finger, so that the pad seals against the tone-hole rim, but the hole in the key is left open. A word of caution: the Philly D trick can become a crutch. Unreliable slurs to high D are merely a symptom of an underlying embouchure issue. Regular use of the Philly D fingering masks the symptom, but doesn't solve the problem.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2011-03-23 16:25)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-03-23 22:08
Rachel,
The Marigaux 901 has an interesting relationship between the Upper Eb and D.
I am curious does your Eb speak easily?
On my Oboe the D spoke easily and the Eb did not. Closing the diamond with wax solved the balance between the two notes and the problem.
It pays to bring the Oboe to repair person knowledgeable with Marigaux quirks. The diamond may have to be adjusted.
There should be no reason to lift the finger -
One more question - do you roll your finger or slide it. Rolling a finger may not clear the diamond completely.
Mark
PS: The Philadelphia D key is always nice to have! I had one put on my Loree and my Marigaux Oboes. It works quite well.
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Author: ceri
Date: 2011-03-23 22:09
Hautbois JJ, lifting the first finger is only standard on thumb-plate oboes. Conservatoire oboes using short-scrape European reeds half-hole.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-23 22:20
You can experiment by closing the top fingerplate down so it barely moves (but there is still a small amount of movement there like the 3rd 8ve key) to see if this helps the top D and Eb. This will also allow you to raise LH instead of rolling down.
You can experiment by filling in the diamond with Blu-Tack (or anything similar that can be removed easily of you don't like the result) and making a hole through the centre with a needle to whatever diameter works best. If you want something a bit more permanent (but can still be removed) then use wax.
And adust the closure of RH2 fingerplate when closing the low C key so it too almost closes (but doesn't close completely) which will affect the top C# more.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-23 23:48
An additional thought about this question.
When given the chance I play other oboist's instruments as often as possible.
One thing I always try is the high a - 3rd octave d slur.
Year after year, and I've done this for decades.
With same makes and models or different ones entirely, some just simply do it better or worse than others using the same reed.
I am talking about the American long-scrape reeds I use, but the differences then observed can reasonably be attributed to the oboes, since I doubt picking up an unfamiliar oboe immediately changes my embouchure, tongue, support etc.
Having the Mack trick available as a second try technique usually always fixes the problem on unfamiliar instruments, and sometimes happy surprises happen and things just simply work. I try it first w/o the Mack trick.
After all these years, I suspect a combination of factors for sure, but on balance, I think if a reed and playing style works on several instruments (Philly-equipped or not), having the first finger LH technique available in your bag of tricks is worth its weight in gold.
Good luck with it all.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-24 02:40
Ceri, you are right, and re-reading my post i think you might have misunderstood when i said notes above 2nd octave C, which meant notes above high C with the 2nd octave key. Sorry about that!
But even so, i have seen more than a handful players from Germany as well as Holland with automatic instruments lift for the middle register, and certainly many people more with semi/auto instruments lifting for the 3rd octave. Perhaps it is caused by the pool of teachers residing here in South East Asia but i have barely seen anyone half hole for the 3rd octave. I use short scrape reeds too and play semi automatic and used to lift for the middle but now half-hole, but still lift for the 3rd octave because i prefer the setup of such a system.
Ceri, can you tell us what the common fingerings are (top C#-D#) in France and how people prefer to setup the height of the half hole plate, the 3rd octave, and the C key screw? Thanks!
Regards,
Howard
Post Edited (2011-03-24 02:47)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-24 03:32
On some fully automatic instruments, the long bridge linkage from LH3 to the 8ve mechanism is connected to the LH1 fingerplate (with an adjusting screw) so it almost closes LH1 when LH3 is closed so they can lift off instead of rolling down for the middle C#-Eb and lower altissimo. While LH3 is raised, the LH1 fingerplate will open fully.
This can be removed and a new arm and adjusting screw for LH1 can be fitted so it makes direct contact with the body as is the norm on semi-auto instruments.
Some older oboes (usually older thumbplate systems with ring keys eg. B&H oboes) have the LH1 fingerplate linked to the LH2 ring to lower it to almost closed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-24 03:50
Chris, any ideas why the direct contact screw so common with semi auto instruments not common with older auto instruments? What is the point then since it will always be almost closing in all registers? I find it so much more difficult to adjust in such a situation, since it affects then the seating of LH3.
Regards,
Howard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-24 04:51
I think it's so C# can be played as an open note ooo|ooo as some players do use this short C# fingering instead of the full C# fingering if it makes things easier. The open C# is no good when the top plate is screwed right down (for players who lift LH1 instead of roll down) so the full C# fingering has to be used instead (or the LH2 C# trill key if the tuning allows).
Likewise on semi-auto instruments where the top plate fully opens (and high E is best when LH1 fully opens).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-03-24 17:41)
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-03-24 05:13
Mark, my top Eb is quite resistant, like you say. If I need to be absolutely assured of it coming out, I will often put my pinky on the G# instead of the low B key and while this is slightly sharp and I need to adjust accordingly, it is much clearer and speaks easily.
I can barely get anyone to look at my oboe here who even knows what one is, so when we move to the US in August, I will aim to seek out a repairer who knows Marigaux. Advice welcome!
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Author: ceri
Date: 2011-03-24 07:31
I have been taught to lift the finger completely only for the top C#. I half hole D, Eb, E, F using the (fairly) standard fingers which were given earlier for C# and D and the "long" fingerings for the others (E= 1/2XX 0XX + G#+Eb).
Another thing which I think differs from thumb-plate users is the 3rd octave key. I use this for E upwards. When I bought a new Howarths conservatoire system oboe last year the shop told me that the key should only be used for F upwards and the E wasn't in tune (and was harder to play) when I used the 3rd octave key. However, fingering habits die hard so after a couple of weeks I agreed to let my teacher lower the 3rd octave key (he had wanted to do it as soon as I got it) so that I could go back to using the key for E.
WoodwindOz, I had an old Marigaux before I bought my current Howarths. The actual half-hole opening is very small and can get clogged up - have you tried removing it and cleaning it? I had a similar problem to you - couldn't slur up to high D. This was fairly early on in my oboe learning days and my teacher kept telling me I wasn't putting enough air into it. One day in desperation I handed him my oboe and he couldn't do it either. He promptly dismantled the oboe, cleaned the half-hole and it suddenly became possible!
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-03-24 10:18
One last point to ponder.
There are alternative fingerings which we tend to forget for altissimo C# and D. The trill keys!
In many situations, using the trill key instead of "going over the break" to the altissimo register can produce a nicer note with fewer problems, and the slur is effortless. Especially for fast and pianissimo passages you should give it a try. The sound has a different quality, but top D and above tend to squeal a bit anyhow.
Other alternative fingerings to remember (as Chris pointed out here, and in the past) are the harmonic B and open C#.
Harmonic B is played by playing top A and then adding RH1 + RH2. Try it!
Open C# has ALL the keys open including the LH1 for a thumbplate player, requiring RH1 on conservatoire instruments. Very unstable mechanically, especially for the high C# on a thumbplate system since the only two fingers on the instrument are the RH thumbrest and the sideways push on 2nd octave! You adjust the intonation by adjusting the height of the half-hole key.
D is the fundamental key of the Oboe - raising one finger at a time gives you all 7 notes, with open C# at the top.
J.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-03-24 13:47
Try this fingering:
Many European players use this fingering - lift the first finger left hand - play b, a, g and third octave key. This is the fingering I use for the Eb. It also have advantages since you use less fingers! You can also use slight variations to see what works best for you.
The Eb can be adjusted by using wax to adjust the size of the diamond.
Contact RDGwoodwinds when you come to the states.
They have repair people on both the west and east coast. My work was done in NYC by Kristen Bertrand. These people really know the Mairgaux Oboe well.
I also had my scale beautifully tuned (over one year) with great stability and consistent timbre.
Mark
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-24 17:30
Drew,
I tried very consciously to open up (and not bite) and it really does seem to help.
I need to try that on my other oboe w/o Philly gizmo and see what happens.
I am not having troubles with d any more, but sometime A - E, Ab - Eb, so I am looking at your observation carefully (I'm doing Pictures At An Exhibition soon so need the A - E, Ab - Eb in good order).
So far, I can open and take in a slight bit more reed and things improve, although not 100% yet. And I think I detect some repositioning of the back of the tongue in the process.
Another thought is sine these passages are rare, I don't 'demand' it of myself, the reed and the oboe. I'll need to add it to the reed tests, and daily practice routines.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
-Craig
Post Edited (2011-03-24 17:31)
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