 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-21 21:34
I wonder if anyone can help. I think my English horn is possessed!
My instrument is mechanically sound and repairers can find nothing wrong with it.
Several times, during performances, suddenly my instrument stops playing. It's usually when I'm playing quietly around the 2nd line G area. It seems to right itself without me really doing anything.
One time when it happened in a performance last week, I was playing solo repeated G's, followed by a C. As the G's just squeaked, I thought very quickly, played a bit louder and up the octave. The phrase is repeated a few bars later, and by this time, everything was working again.
It occured on 3 separate occasions last week, yet I haven't ever managed to get it to misbehave during practice.
I've had a few thoughts as to what it might be, but unless it does it again, I can't know if I've solved the problem.
I wondered if it was anything to do with water - water getting trapped somewhere, or a small bit of dirt somewhere which becomes saturated after blowing down the instrument for sometime.
Tonight I have cleaned out my crook (bocal) with some soapy water and a pipe cleaner and then thoroughly rinsed and dried it. I have also oiled the bore of the instrument in the hope that the water will drain away rather than get stuck anywhere in the bore.
I wonder if anyone has any ideas............or if anyone knows what might happen if a bocal did have a small bit of dirt or food deposit in it.
Big solos and reeds are enough to worry about...........without the addition of temperamental instruments.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-21 22:24
Check the staple is a good fit on the crook and that it doesn't leak. A suction test with the reed fitted to the staple will show up any leaks (close the end of the crook off with one finger and suck the air from the reed so the blades remain closed until they pop open), but check your reed isn't leaking before trying this.
I've had trouble where the staples on some reeds wobble on the crook which makes things interesting (and very frustrating) and you can wrap some PTFE tape around the tip of the crook to make it seal better against the inside taper of the staple.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-03-22 00:01
It could be that the reed is either too open, too closed, too dry, or…too old.
Best,
john
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-22 00:30
Yes Chris - I had wondered about leakage and have from time to time experimented with tape. As I recall, it hasn't ever done it when I've made extra efforts to keep things airtight. But The reed and crook are airtight when I start, even without tape. Since it only happens when the instrument has been up and running for about an hour, and seems to right itself almost immediately, someone has mentioned it could be something to do with temperature. I don't know, maybe I suddenly spring a leak. It's always when I'm doubling, so it gets blown for 5 minutes, then left for a few minutes, blown again................................
I have experimented blowing a note, say a G, and slowly pulling reed off crook, making a leak on purpose, and it doesn't seem to make the noise or give the feeling that it does when it's misbehaving in gigs.
Yes - reed is always first port of call when things go wrong - but afraid it has done it with all sorts of reeds.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-22 13:07
Hi JCW...
Don't know whether i will be of any help here. You mention that it usually occurs with low G. So it also happens with other notes? Does it happen with attacks only or when slurring from another note towards it?
The moment i read that the G squeaked/stopped completely, i was thinking that you might have accidentally pressed the right hand G# key with your right hand. That has happened to me more often than i would like to, especially in nervous situations. Is middle and low D easy to play most of the time? (considering you have functioning reeds) If not, perhaps the G key is adjusted to need to much finger pressure, and i can tell you that many so called expert repairers would not be able to tell this, especially on automatic instruments. The sudden relaxing of the finger pressure after a note has started comfortably might lead to this too...
Good luck finding out the cause and do let us know when you eventually solve this problem.
Regards,
Howard
p.s. try another instrument to see whether that happens too.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-22 13:18
Just a note on bore oil: I used to swear by it, but investigation on the science of wood now makes me swear AT it.
Someone reported that Paul Covey soaked a piece of grenadilla for a whole month in oil. Upon cutting it open, NO absorption had happened. Laubin recommends applying furniture wax (Pledge) with a feather to prevent the accumulation of condensation and my brother, the forestry engineer, concurs with that.
Considering the trouble oil causes to pads, this might be something to consider.
Good luck on your disappearing notes, though. Do you wrap cellophane around your crook?
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-22 17:40
Hi Howard,
It generally just stops playing - tongued or slurred. And it's in the G area but not just G's.
The G# key theory is interesting. I'm certainly not catching the key. I gave up playing for a few seconds the other night and then tried to get in again and it still wouldn't work. I think if I had caught the G# key the first time I certainly would have removed finger by the time I tried to come in again. However I am going to experiment a little because a colleague has suggested that in the heat, perhaps a key is coming up. Octave or trill key perhaps.
The low D's are fine - I've been grovelling around with no problems.
Yes, it would be great to borrow another instrument for a performance, but it would probably take quite a few performances to prove anything since this thing only happens occasionally and when I'm least expecting it!
JCW
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-22 17:44
Robin,
Yes, I use oil very sparingly. I've heard some horror stories!
Cellophane around the crook - yes I have done sometimes and if memory serves me right, I haven't had this problem. But when I've tried to simulate a leak at that point, between crook and reed, it doesn't seem to create the same problem. (It creates one far worse!) It is a feasible solution though. Suddenly springing a very slight leak.
JCW
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-22 17:45
Sorry for not being of help at all, when you do find the cause, and i hope you do asap, do let us know!
Howard
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-22 17:48
No no, Howard - all comments are appreciated. Tonight I'm going to look closely at that G# key. It is firmly on the "suspect list" now!
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-22 17:56
Just slightly touching it would cause such a thing in my experience, especially when the F#-G# connection screw is too loose. The strange thing is, with my current instrument, if you screw it tight for the right G#, it will be too tight for the left G# and also cause leaks for F# and below. So the best bet is to screw it just right for the left G# and try as much as possible to not touch the right G# (i used to, and still occasionally rest my right hand on it without noticing). This is of course... assuming that THAT seems to be the problem.....
Howard
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-22 22:32
I have just spent a couple of hours working on the various theories and thank you for all your suggestions.
The point about making sure the reed and crook remain airtight is certainly one that I need to keep an eye on. I am airtight when I play, but whether things move or not and cause this problem is possible. However, it seems to me that the leak would need to be considerable to affect things this much.
I was drawn towards the rather complicated top plate for the first finger, left hand. If the key is down but there is a slight leak from the top plate over the hole (I guess the equivalent of not covering top hole properly on the oboe), this results in almost a very weak harmonic coming out. I do wonder if this is what is happening. I think the cork might be quite old. I also wonder if there is any play in the rod, the top plate could go down in slightly the wrong place.
Whilst I had this key off, I then noticed that the pads on the trill keys didn't look great. I removed those and found that they were both very dirty - black gunk on them and the holes were also slightly gunked up. I haven't cleaned the pads. I'm thinking that I might be getting a bit warmer, so it might be time to take it to my repairer again and perhaps be able to point him in vaguely the right direction. Of course, I've had the instrument to him before but he couldn't find the problem.
Wonder if anyone thinks this is likely..................or am I clutching at straws now??!!
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-23 01:02
Actually....i did thought of the top play for a while....on my oboe, if i relax the slightest there i would have big problems with response. I remember very sound advise from one oboe teacher of mine - the balance of both instruments come, obviously, first from the right thumb, then from the left index finger, and that is where most people seem to forget...not so much forget...but take for granted of, especially after many many years away from lessons....perhaps?
From your current state....considering you have discovered some possible instrumental flaws...try a DIFFERENT repairman! I see you are based in the UK, why not go to Yan Petrov? Our resident technical expert Chris would probably be more than happy to see your instrument as well!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-23 05:12
I know your pain. 30 minutes before a performance i just did, my oboe decided to stop working completely. Thanks to an oboist friend who just so happened to be around, i took his oboe and played the concert on it. Now, i am completely lost. Man oh man.
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-23 10:24
Yes, I know Yanko. In fact, many years ago, when I was in the HKPO, Yanko came to Hong Kong for a year to study with Anthony Camden at the Academy there. We had him into the orchestra once as an extra player!
Dominic Ball over here is also a brilliant repairman. I recently had my oboe serviced by him and he did a wonderful job. He hasn't ever seen my cor, so I think I will take it down to him. At least now I can point him in some direction rather than just saying I think the instrument is possessed!
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-23 15:24
WOW! You played in the HKPO!!!! OUTSTANDING. May i know your name? I might have seen you before live then? I was in Hong Kong in a couple of occasions many years ago. What years were these? I am Malaysian and Rachel Walker from the Singapore Symphony is my teacher. (I know Yanko was in Hong Kong a million years ago but perhaps you stayed on for a bit longer?) Small world indeed...
Good to hear that you are definitely on your way to solving this. Obviously what i suggested would probably be of no use, because i don't see you having technical problems with fingers, being someone who used to play in the HKPO. Anyhow, keep us updated, and nice to meet you.
Regards,
Howard, Malaysia
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Author: oboereed1109
Date: 2011-03-23 16:02
I haven't read all the posts about this problem.
I have never had a problem like this. Is your bocal loose in the instrument? Perhaps getting new cork on your bocal could help. Also, I agree that a leak where the reed meets the bocal could be the culprit. I recommend the Rigotti staples with a rim. I have made many EH reeds using these and have had excellent results. I no longer worry about leaking when I use these.
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-23 16:17
I was Principal Oboe from 1992-1998 during David Atherton's time as MD. My name is Julia Wilson and I now work back in the UK as a free-lance player. Kathy Harris, Anne Rankin and Alison Teale were also in my section in those days.
No, I'm not likely to have finger problems on the oboe - but it's not out of the question on the cor! Although I studied it at college, I didn't ever have to play it during first 10 years or so of my career.
Even now, I don't need to play it often. I am growing to love playing the instrument though - apart from when it lets me down like this!
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-24 00:07
Inconsistent problems can be really hard to diagnose and address.
And one note acting up with others above and below it working fine, suggests to me a mechanical problem, perhaps a wear problem where the pad migrates slightly and sometimes seals and other times does not.
That can happen by end-to-end movement of a rod, or when that plus internal wear between rod and key work causes inconsistencies. End-to-end is usually controllable, but internal wear is a bigger problem.
One thing I can suggest is a reed to bocal technique (repeat of an old post) where you slightly screw the reed onto your bocal. I use a slight left to right twisting motion while pushing the reed onto the bocal.
It causes a metallic micro-groove to form and a tighter seal happens.
The more you reuse the same staples, the better.
When removing reeds, reverse the twisting motion.
Brass players do this with mouthpieces, and taught me the technique.
The call it keying the mouthpiece into the lead tube.
Then they cannot simply pull the mouth piece straight back out.
It gets really tight. And air tight.
Post Edited (2011-03-24 02:31)
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Author: jcw
Date: 2011-03-24 20:01
Thanks Craig. I'll try that.
I took and left the instrument at repairers today. As you say, there is some play on the rod over the first finger plate. It's minimal, but we guess there is a possibility that that plus perhaps I may have not a huge amount of finger pressure on the key, could amount to the odd leak.
That top plate on my instrument is only supported by one arm (I can't think of another word for it!) I gather some instruments have two. Therefore the top split of the plate goes down a little like a seesaw, a point again which could, under some circumstances, be adding to or causing the problem.
Since this fault is so intermittent it may be some time before I find out if we have fixed it. The repairer is first going to deal with this key, but make a note of anything else he spots. Best to change just one thing at a time.
Fingers crossed!
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-24 22:27
Good luck with it.
And BTW, if you do screw the reed onto the bocal, reverse that and unscrew it to remove it. Should have mentioned that before.
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