 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: OboeLover4Life
Date: 2011-03-16 19:28
My teacher is rly holding out on teaching me how to make reeds so I've decided to try and teach myself. ^-^
Right now I'm just getting used to scraping on a piece of tube cane but I would like some kind of direction.
Could anyone recommend me some good books that can help me? Thanks!
If music be the food of love, play on. ~William Shakespeare
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-03-16 19:58
Well, there are a few books on reedmaking that will show you what to do. The Weber & Capps Reedmakers Manual (book and DVD) is the standard reference.
http://www.forrestsmusic.com/oboe_books.htm?xscroll=&yscroll=300&returnto=returntoX-73 Go to that page and scroll down to find it.
There is also an online book by Joseph Shalita that has some good tips and is less expensive.http://www.makingoboereeds.com/makingoboereedsebook.htm
Or to be really basic, go to Kerry Willingham's site and watch the reedmaking videos he has posted there for free. http://www.reedmaker.com/page27/videos/videos.html
But there is still nothing like having someone who knows how show you how, in person, and watch you try it.
I am wondering why your teacher is not into teaching you reedmaking. (My first teacher didn't teach reedmaking, either, btw.) Does he/she teach reedmaking to others, but not you? Is a reason why he/she would prefer you not start working on reedmaking at this point?
IMO, it is pretty helpful to already have had a few years' experience with playing and adjusting reeds before you start trying to make them. It is hard enough to make a reed when you know what you want it to look and sound like. When you don't actually have a pretty good grasp of how the reed functions and what makes it do one thing or another, I fear reedmaking could be insurmountably difficult.
Susan
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-03-17 16:16
I'm with Susan on this one.
I've no idea how long you've played, but your teacher may be 'holding out' on teaching you reed-making because it DOES come after fundamentals have been established. It is also a good idea (a GREAT idea) to learn how to adjust a reed before you start scraping them.
Having had a wonderful teacher who was also a superb reed-maker, I echo the fact that there is no substitute to working with a real live person when you learn to make reeds. I get confused watching reed-making videos or reading reed-making directions, and I've been making reeds since the 70s.
So if your teacher is just not in the habit of teaching reed-making, and you are advanced enough to learn, perhaps they could recommend someone else to learn from.
GoodWinds
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Author: Mike Hopkins
Date: 2011-03-18 19:02
Try,
OBOE-A reed blown in the wind by Marion Whittow.
www.puffit.com
mhopkins706@aol.com
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-18 21:22
If I ever teach a beginner to make reeds again, or for that matter anyone at any level, the first thing I will do is ensure they master knife sharpening.
It will be painful for them, kinda like karate kid stuff.... on with the burr, off with the burr.
Minus that fundamental, reed making is really hard to do, and to learn.
I have never seen a demo or description that really teaches the trick/method of doing it, and I cannot do it myself without using my thumb-nail to test the burr. Testing on cane does not 'cut it' for me...:)
Sometimes its easy and a 5 minute problem and other times, I have to devote an hour to restoring the blade before happy with the burr.
And I have been doing this for over 40 years now.
Actually , I'm contemplating how to make a powered grinding machine that would satisfy beveled oboe reed knifes the way kitchen knifes get sharp so easily...
Anyone beats me to it, more power to all of us.
I am not exaggerating the importance of this to make a point... its the simple truth.
And getting it right soon as a priority will make wonderful differences to your reed-making life.
Since I started reed making the first year of study as a teen, I think I disagree thats too early to start, and I do agree learning to adjust and maintain (clean, care for, sanitize, etc.) is the correct first step with the reeds.
In case you are not a young person, oboe keeps us young at heart for life...
So, ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
If you are a young person, don't drink yet, so no toast for you.
Post Edited (2011-03-18 21:25)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-03-18 21:42
<<Actually , I'm contemplating how to make a powered grinding machine that would satisfy beveled oboe reed knifes the way kitchen knifes get sharp so easily...>>
OMG! Craig! If you did that, your name would be LEGEND, for then EVEN I could make an oboe reed!
The ONLY thing that stops me is the near-total inability to correctly sharpen a reed knife.
And no, this is not snark. I really cannot sharpen my knife. With a sharp knife, I can do anything. Without it, I am a babe dependant on the good will of those who can.
S.
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-18 21:53
I am finally having better success with the speedy sharp Kerry Willingham uses. But first, I nearly ruined my knifes with it. So, still trying new things after all these years... there must be room for improvement.
But really, a little grinder approach. If gouging machines can sell at $1,300 a pop, why not a decent sharpener for $150?
Gotta think some more about this.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-19 01:06
Oboelover4life:
If you favor the American scrape, read Martin Schuring's Oboe Art and Method:
http://www.amazon.com/Oboe-Art-Method-Martin-Schuring/dp/0195374576
If you favor the European scrape, Robin's blog is a great start.
One more thing, if u are just starting out, it would not so frustrating if you start with a gouged and shaped cane. When u get good at that, then try gouged cane and start doing shaping yourself, and work backwards till u get good at each step of the process.
Starting from a tube, gouging it, etc introduces so many variables and things that can go wrong that you will never imagine.
Good luck in your endeavors. This feat will really try your patience, but you will get there in time.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-19 05:43
Another note about knife sharpening.
Daryl Caswell, Reed Knife Sharpening book is a good start with very comprehensive diagrams. Of course, from the basics u can always use the steps u need and short cut or add to the process.
For a start, dont stinge on the knife. A sharp knife is so very key to success of your learning process. Get like a good Landwell and a PA Herder knife or the like, and u wont regret it. Most use at least 2 kinds of knifes for different reasons.
Kerry Willingham has a great site. His videos on reed making are great for any beginner. The video is free and I have seen other charge for this knowledge. I am sure, since he offers online classes, he will probably do a session on reeds if u need it. A word about his knife sharpening, though....He uses chef type sharpening tools and the speedy Ti knife. If u have no experience with knifes, better go back to the old fashion stone, like the Caswell book. Like OboeCraig said, u can ruin your knives, especially if u dont know what u doing. Knives are NOT cheap either to ruin and throw it out. I used to apprentice at a katana (samurai sword) shop when I was younger, the old master insists on the old fashion stone, no short cuts, no modern tools to speed things up. Somehow, the blade stays sharp longer doing the laborious way.
Good luck !
Post Edited (2011-03-19 05:48)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-03-19 06:13
I started making reeds in my teens as well... am certainly not against it at all! Just hoping that you have enough playing experience behind you to ensure reedmaking will be successful for you. The fundamentals are essential on every instrument, but you can't get far without them on the oboe.
Let us know how you get on, please!
GoodWinds
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-19 12:53
Susan says:
"IMO, it is pretty helpful to already have had a few years' experience with playing and adjusting reeds before you start trying to make them. It is hard enough to make a reed when you know what you want it to look and sound like. When you don't actually have a pretty good grasp of how the reed functions and what makes it do one thing or another, I fear reedmaking could be insurmountably difficult."
Yep, I totally agree....and u need to know what kind of sound you want to get out of your reeds when u start making them for your own use. If you are new to oboe, I'd just experiment and buy from a few sources. The sites recommended here, some have demo clips, choose the sound u like and buy from that source initially. Then you can experiment on the ones u bought and try to alter them. That was how I started some many many many years ago...back then, u just had to chance what u buy and depended on recommendations from others, or spend many hours a a store trying practically all their reeds until you find the one u like and actually make a purchase.
OboeCraig is right on about a sharp knife being everything in reed making. Learn to sharpen a kitchen knife, using the procedures for sharpening a reed knife, before experimenting on the expensive reed knife, would be my advice. If you can cut razor thin frozen beef or fish like "butter" using a meat or fish slicing knife with a double bevel edge, then u are ready to do a reed knife.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-03-19 14:47
The Scary Sharp System (wet/dry sandpaper <320 to 2000> affixed to plate glass), a good leather strop (available from the Reedery in LA) & the AH Rod from Roger Miller in Ohio are all you need to get going. Recommended knife: Neilsen wedge (aka Neilsen knife) from Barbara Neilsen in Chicago for under $40; you don't need to pay more!!
Best,
john
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-19 17:49
Thanks. This is very interesting to me.
I checked out the Scary Sharp site and wonder, is there a suitable device like that chisel holder that fits a beveled reed knife blade?
I have seen something that works with water stones, and it had an offset to accommodate the knife's handle being wider than the blade.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-03-19 18:11
Craig,
I've been looking; without exception I've found only devices which accommodate knife blades up to 2 7/8 inches long. Most double reed knives are minimum 3 inches long & of course the jointer blades are 6 inches or more in length. I'm going to ask Udo Heng at the Tempe IDRS this June if it would be possible for him to fabricate a device with rollers which would accommodate a 3" to 6+" blade. This would be a quantum leap in terms of speed of sharpening & virtually eliminate the variables in hand sharpening. Of course it is easier to sharpen the single bevel; just making sure the respective sides (bevel & flat) stay dead flat on the stone or sandpaper. With the DHG, there is more latitude; rule of thumb says dead flat on the leading edge & 40-ish degrees on the trailing edge. For years I've been using the groove in the fleshy part of my thumb made by pressing the blade forward to keep the trailing edge constant…it works but still a variable. Advantage of a strop is that the trailing edge of the knife blade is stroked dead flat against the flat of the leather pulling the blade towards you: no variables here. This refines the sharpness of the burr to a gnat's posterior: a couple of swipes on the AH rod to realign the burr & reed making becomes a lark, what with plane-like curled shavings coming off the cane.
Best,
john
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-19 21:04
Thank you, John. I manage to get the gnat's rear most of the time, but when things go wrong, its really a lot of work to restore the basic blade ready for honing.
I like your idea about your IDRS resource fashioning something.
How about teflon rollers, or are metal or rubber better?
Should they be maintainable for swapping in new parts for wear?
I think I need to spend some time at Lowes and Home Depot and do some research and brain-storming.
Aside from maintaining the flatness benefit of the glass part of Scary Sharp, any idea why the silicone paper abrasive would be better than a diamond dust 'stone'?
Hm, if i turn that sideways, I'd get short strokes across the whole blade by push-pull and no figure eight pattern... hmm.
-Craig
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-03-20 00:00
Craig,
Let's see: lastly, if you cut the paper in 3" to 3 1/4" widths, the whole knife blade (DHG) will fit nicely, so the forward/rearward motion on the leading edge can go the length of the paper (dead flat) Only forward strokes on the sharpening of the trailing edge (freehand at a 40 or so degree angle, fleshy part of thumb against back of blade & side of thumb resting on the abrasive).
A diamond dust stone is one-dimensional IOW one grit; the theory is that with multiple grits (6, 7, or 8) of sandpaper you keep making smaller & more compact scratch patterns until you end up with a mirror & therefore the sharpest of the sharp. Also dirt cheap to replace/modify the combination of grits as long as you aren't afraid of using 3M77 spray glue for the anchor medium on the glass, as recommended by the Scary Sharp folk. PSA sandpaper is pricey stuff, albeit very convenient.
If it were me, I think I'd opt for teflon rollers with metal sleeve bearings to keep costs down.
I have mixed notions about Kerry's Speedy Sharp device. I have one, but use it reluctantly; as I have such great success with the sandpaper, strop & AH rod. Many ways to skin a cat, eh what?
BTW I use diamond dust stones (EZ Lap 1200 grit) & DMT <green> 1200 grit) for sharpening razor blades for shaping cane…a few swipes on both sides of the blade & a light honing on my translucent Arky for each piece of shaped cane… less than a minute of time expended. With one GEM blade I get a baker's dozen or so of shaped pieces.
Best,
john
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-20 03:42
John.
Again, thank you.
This all really has me thinking again how to improve things.
Long ago I had a fairly destructive method of raising the beveled edge of the knife on the stone, and the human factors made it variable and I ended up with a rounded off bevel.
Good edges happened but became unpredictable.
I will experiment with the Scary Sharp approach and also keep thinking about a grinder-style automated approach. Several things are forming in my mind.
Super Sharp-wise ( K. Willingham's gig) , I find a reasonable method where I secure the device in my hand, upside-down and carefully push and draw the knife's back and then the beveled edge across it prior to honing on a ceramic stick and it is working pretty well for me.
That after say, 45 minutes hard work on a diamond stone once things go bad.
Thanks for your insights. I REALLY appreciate them.
So,
Post Edited (2011-03-20 04:39)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-03-20 06:09
Good advice would be to get the Jay Light book on reedmaking. There are a few secrets in there that I've not seen elsewhere.
My teachers did not cover the subject of reedmaking as well as I wished and sort of rarely discussed it. One was a grand student of Tabuteau and the other a student of Debuescher. Neither discussed knife sharpening.
One has to search out information from a variety of sources. I met Jerry Domer of the Vancouver orchestra and he gave me a most significant tip on reed making that I believe he learned from Ray Still, which made all the difference in the world. My teachers were not aware of it or didn't divulge it to me. The time spent on reeds can be enormous and the oboeist should try to learn to make reeds without using so much time.
Somehow, one must also learn how to sharpen the knife without making a career of it.
Good Luck!
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-20 12:41
The Jay Light book is the reason I started AND quit the American scrape! I did the whole reed diary with plenty of accurate measurements and descriptions on cane quality and behavior; I had plenty of other oboists (long-time graduates and well seasoned pros) helping me out with this technique and it just would not work.
The important lesson here is that learning from a book is very risky. My reeds started to be great and truly renowned for their quality (among teachers and university mates) when I just did what my Conservatoire teacher told me. Others would scoff me because it's not what Ted Baskin or so-and-so does, but while my critics were struggling with dynamics and the inability to tongue notes below F, I was easily learning to compensate for the caprices of my Lorée!
It's always best to have a teacher to help you, even if you end up abandoning the style for another. Otherwise, you can end-up going completely the wrong way, never understand why things are not working and just mess yourself up for a long time to come.
To the dismay of others here, I will repeat it: playing the oboe and making oboe reeds is easy! .... much harder than the trumpet or saxophone, but nowhere near the nightmare I have lived, witnessed and read!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-03-20 12:55
Did anyone mention Linda Walsh's DVD? Perhaps too European for most here, several different styles. It also include Martin Schuring's American style. Excellent reference!
http://www.oboereedmaking.com/page0.php
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-20 13:32
HOWARD, YOU ARE A GOD-SEND! ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Notice that the guy is American too! Some will complain that he is a bassoonist and that oboe reeds are a completely different matter.... to that I answer using the memorable words of our past Prime Minister P. E. Trudeau: FUDDLE-DUDDLE!!
Cane is not a high density polymer, it is not an engineered alloy, it is not temperature and time controlled glass formation! What he said about the best reeds needing the least time to make is SSSSOOOOOOO TRUE! However, a few weeks ago I re-worked a reed that was dying (I blamed it on green cane) and it worked great.... now green cane usually means it will not work again without more rework every time I use it, but with my wisdom tooth just pulled out, I'll have to wait 2 weeks to test it again!
Bassoon reeds are 2 arched (arced? arked?) pieces of dense grass tied together and scraped such that they can produce sound in response to air and pressure from the lips and tongue. Oboe reeds respond to EXACTLY THE SAME LAWS OF PHYSICS. The shape is different, so the particular details of making them work are different, but the basic principles are identical.
I need to find a way to link this to my blog!!!!! Just so I don't loose the link:
http://vimeo.com/5592982
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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