 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-14 03:47
When a student asks, "how hard do I grip the mouthpiece (single lip embouchure we'll assume)," I'm prone to say, "not one bit harder than is necessary to form a pleasing in tune sound."
I try to explain that clarinet play is in part about energy conservation and that to expend energy for no improvement, worse, inferior play, is a waste.
For those who teach, if faced with the same question though, what is/might be your reply?
We tend to say, "don't bite" to students, rather than, on the other end of the spectrum, "grip the mouthpiece harder," as tension from play tends to make its way to the fingers and mouth where inadequate mouthpiece grip is usually not the culprit.
But when the student listens and asks, "so how hard do I grip the mouthpiece," what's some good stock reply do you think?
Mark Nuccio is reported to have said about reed strength, "the lightest that doesn't interfere with your artistry." But I'm not sure this parallels with embouchure strength.
TIA
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-14 04:59
I don't recall being asked about grip. When approaching an embouchure for the first time I like to point out that you surround the mouthpiece in such a way to keep air from leaking out. From there it is a matter of stops and starts providing pointers and having the student watch what they are doing in a mirror. Students I start from scratch don't seem to have many problems with this.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-14 09:36
My first teacher used to say "relax and let the air do the work". I never really understood what he meant, but later realised that he is a professional opera singer and has a lot more air than I have.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-06-14 10:15
I've actually had to tell a couple of younger students to use a little more jaw pressure recently - for the first time ever! Their tone was a bit flabby and spread in the low register despite having solid embouchures and a good sound in the rest of their range. They had overreacted to being told not to bite. (I use "biting" as any excess jaw pressure - so biting is always bad.)
When you say "grip" I think you need to define the term more clearly - are you talking about embouchure or jaw pressure, or both? Embouchure grip and jaw pressure are quite distinct from each other. In my view, the embouchure should be firm, the jaw no firmer than it needs to be, and yes "let the air do the work."
Some players/teachers like Stephen Williamson of the Chicago Symphony believe in a very resistant set up. The considerations there are going to be much different. I don't think it's a good way to go for most, and I really don't think it's great for beginning to intermediate students who will need to bite quite heavily to make it work. Williamson's approach is considered "old school" by many, but there are many "old schools". His concern is projecting to a big hall. With younger students that's usually not a primary focus. Do what works for you in your situation...
Anders
Post Edited (2023-06-14 10:34)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-14 17:50
nellsonic wrote:
> Some players/teachers like Stephen Williamson of the Chicago
> Symphony believe in a very resistant set up. The considerations
> there are going to be much different. I don't think it's a good
> way to go for most, and I really don't think it's great for
> beginning to intermediate students who will need to bite quite
> heavily to make it work. Williamson's approach is considered
> "old school" by many, but there are many "old schools".
I've read this a number of times here. I've no doubt he plays this way, based on the accounts I've seen. But does anyone know if he teaches students (not young ones, of course, but at the college level) to do this? Or is it an approach he's found for himself in his individual situation but doesn't proselytize for?
Relating this to the original question, I suspect Williamson's approach *must* depend on very firm embouchure closure around the mouthpiece - heavy muscular "gripping" and not jaw clamping, which would almost certainly cause injury to the lower lip even with protection over your teeth (unless the protector were very thick).
Karl
Post Edited (2023-06-14 18:15)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-06-14 18:53
I saw Steve Williamson take a masterclass at Clarinetfest 22 and was seriously disappointed - I have always liked his playing from afar (never actually heard him live) but found his "teaching" awful, and have no tolerance for this "play as hard a reed as you can possibly manage" stuff (exact quote btw).
In relation to the OP....
- I would never use the wording "grip the mouthpiece", but as noted above if the clarinet is not secure then the fingers tend to develop extra tension and unnecessary habits.
- I will get students to slur from (bottom line) E to open G. On the G, the clarinet should be held steady by upward pressure from the right thumb (not by tension in the embouchure). The clarinet is essentially wedged between the right thumb and the top teeth, and if the student develops the habit of holding it steadily THIS WAY for the throat tones, their fingers should be able to "float" above the toneholes when not in use.
- for notes that utilise the LEFT thumb, the left thumb can also steady the clarinet by pushing away from the body.
- so there are 3 points of contact with the clarinet that are serving the purpose of "stabilising". 1) right thumb 2) top teeth 3) left thumb.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2023-06-15 07:04
I actually use the mouthpiece pitch to have the students hear feedback on their "grip". I teach them the correct tongue position, lip/teeth placement, how to blow into the instrument and we only use the mouthpiece. I can demonstrate how if they're too tight, the pitch will be too high, or if they're too loose, pitch will be too low. It allows them to instantly hear the sound and adjust.
I do tell my students to aim the air down, and to put pressure from the top of the mouthpiece, and not the bottom, allowing the reed "to breathe" (as if they would be choked by too much pressure). And sometimes use the analogy of a mother dog picking her puppies up by the scruff of their neck. Too hard, and you bite a hole in their necks, not firm enough, and they fall.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-06-15 08:39
donald wrote:
> I saw Steve Williamson take a masterclass at Clarinetfest 22
> and was seriously disappointed - I have always liked his
> playing from afar (never actually heard him live) but found his
> "teaching" awful, and have no tolerance for this "play as hard
> a reed as you can possibly manage" stuff (exact quote btw).
I was at that same masterclass and remember that statement. I also attended at least one online masterclass that he did during the pandemic and he took the same stance there. He seems very nice, and he's got tremendous credibility as the CSO principal and Northwestern clarinet studio head, but I couldn't help but feel for these student's teachers. I knew they were going to have to contradict him at the next lesson. Sometimes a slightly harder than optimal reed is good for a very particular purpose or for a very short time, but.....
Anders
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2023-06-16 00:45
In basic, embouchure is putting your lips around the mouthpiece air tight and pressing the reed slightly towards the mouthpiece to make tension to the reed. Thus when you blow air into the instrument the reed starts to vibrate producing sound.
You can press the reed either by biting the reed against the mp by your jaws or by tightening your lips around the mouthpiece.
I see it wiser to use the lip muscles than your biting muscles, because it's easier to control exactly the pressure against the mouthpiece with your lips than with your jaws.
However, to control the embouchure you will need the mouthpiece be stable enough in your mouth. Therefore a certain amount of jaws is also needed: i suggest you think your jaws to be like an adjustable wrench exactly adjusted round a bolt, not too loose not too tight.
I advice a student to check this frequently by trying to wiggle the mouthpiece horizontally left and right while playing. If you can't, your jaws are too tight, If your teeth are not in contact with the mouthpiece or lips, your jaws are too loose.
How to blow, how deep the mp is in your mouth, in what angle the instrument is etc. are another story!
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-16 13:22
Hi Jarmo,
That's a really helpful way to explain.
I also found it helpful to look online at a diagram of the muscles of the face and realise that the obicularis oris muscle was the one that I should be using, and not the large masseter muscles in my cheeks.
Once I understood that, I could feel the muscles and clearly tell when I was using the right or wrong one.
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-16 14:38
Shaping the muscles properly is also an issue. The face is fairly plastic. It is important to realize the shape is round on the top and flat on the bottom. This is why the "smile" embouchure is antithetical to proper function and causes air leaks and strain to overcome the air leaks. The proper shape is easy to achieve if one thinks of pulling the "corners" of the mouth down, and back (sort of a French frown I guess).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-16 22:17
It may well be a French invention, but it sounds very much inspired by the English.
One of those rare Anglo-French collaborations .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-06-25 20:37
Embouchure is of course linked inextricably to setup. The student should be guided to choose a mouthpiece/reed combination that is neither exhausting for the face muscles or likely to cause undue effort in supporting the air column.
In the last few years I usually suggest a Vandoren BD5 and a V12 2.5 or 3 reed for the student who has developed their embouchure sufficiently. Other Vandoren reeds may work just as well.
At this point American and British ideas may part company! Many British players focus on a 'vocal' production. Visualising vowel sounds in the various registers can assist in creating precisely the embouchure required. Aaah! in the low register with Eeee! from the high E above the break. The top octave may require Igghh! (Hope that makes sense).
Thinking of vowel sounds avoids 'biting' and encourages the work in the lower lip muscles to centre the sound. Thinking vocally will also aid in centring the sound. On a fine instrument centred sound and good intonation will arrive together and no undue embouchure tweaking should be necessary. I notice much discussion in the US around precise amounts of reed to take in and how the chin should be angled. It's relatively easy to determine how much reed to take into the mouth. We all know what happens when you take in too much! Too little and you will end up with a thin, strained noise that is a long way from vocal.
Comments on chins and the relative position of the jaws should be questioned as we all have different physiognomy. Reading these threads I do wonder whether many players are obsessing over such things. A good teacher will observe the natural embouchure of a student and make only the changes that are required. An appropriate setup as descried earlier can actually cause the player to adopt a good embouchure that permits them to retain maximum aperture (tip of reed to mouthpiece) and a consistent flow of air. A centred sound that is in tune on a good setup in a llregisters usually indicates that everything is working as it should be.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-25 21:33
symphony1010 wrote:
> Comments on chins and the relative position of the jaws should
> be questioned as we all have different physiognomy. Reading
> these threads I do wonder whether many players are obsessing
> over such things.
Yes.
A good teacher will observe the natural
> embouchure of a student and make only the changes that are
> required.
Unfortunately (IMHO) even highly reputed teachers in highly regarded conservatory positions here too often feel it necessary to tear every new student down to the rudiments and then build back up, usually *in the teacher's image* regardless of how the student started or what problems he/she may have had. The basic philosophy is too often that there is *only one right way.*
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-25 22:20
There are few students who have the freedom (and knowledge of each educator’s teaching tendencies) to choose their instructor and school, but when I was in the “thick of things” it always seemed to me that it was up to the student to find the right teacher.
………….Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-26 00:05
Paul Aviles wrote:
> There are few students who have the freedom (and knowledge of
> each educator’s teaching tendencies) to choose their
> instructor and school, but when I was in the “thick of
> things” it always seemed to me that it was up to the student
> to find the right teacher.
>
Paul, I'm not sure if you meant this as a response to what I wrote, but if you did, I'm not sure what your point is.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-26 04:06
It seems there are some folks on the Board who advocate a method of education that inspires students to find their own solutions to problems both technically and musically. While I generally agree with the concept particularly for the musical problems/solutions, I see clarinet playing as a craft. Where most future master craftsmen learn by being apprentices under current master craftsmen, we are relegated to finding a way to apply practicum while only being students of the craft.
My solution was to find and study with players whose sounds and styles I wished to emulate. That way the "tearing down and building back up" was a construction that would be satisfactory to me. Of course not all great players are good at communicating how they do what they do (I think of stories I heard of the wonderful Maurice Murphy).
There are those students who were aware of players who had the reputation for being great, inspirational teachers such as Leon Russianoff or Yehuda Gilad. And yet it is clearly not possible for everyone to study with the best of the best for a host of practical reasons.
The good news is that there are many fine players in so many different ensembles across the country. It is a good idea to start with your local great players and find a way to learn from them whatever their style of teaching may be.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-26 05:18
Paul Aviles wrote:
> It seems there are some folks on the Board who advocate a
> method of education that inspires students to find their own
> solutions to problems both technically and musically. While I
> generally agree with the concept particularly for the musical
> problems/solutions, I see clarinet playing as a craft. Where
> most future master craftsmen learn by being apprentices under
> current master craftsmen, we are relegated to finding a way to
> apply practicum while only being students of the craft.
I agree with you that constantly asking a student at any level to go home and figure it out on his own is not an effective way to teach basic skills. Although at a certain advanced level, it becomes more effective for the teacher to describe (or model) a stylistic effect or playing quality and encourage the student to work out the mechanics. Certainly, if a teacher hears something in a student's technical playing that sounds like it needs to be fixed, the teacher needs to be involved, IMO actively, in the process of helping to fix it. But I think the standard saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" also applies. Leave the things the student already can do alone, and spend the time and attention on problems.
Karl
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-06-26 08:25
Quote:
It seems there are some folks on the Board who advocate a method of education that inspires students to find their own solutions to problems both technically and musically.
From a post I made earlier today/yesterday: Quote:
...find an instructor who guides you through the discovery process - but allows you to think through the problem (and come up with the solution) on your own. The goal should always be "understanding" not just "replication."
To me, this didn't imply handing a child a clarinet for the first time and saying, "Well, show me what you got, kid!" Sorry if that's the way it came across.
I personally haven't witnessed many (any?) examples of this error of allowing too much self-discovery.
On the other hand, I have witnessed (and experienced) many examples of the other extreme.
"Dr., I'm having a problem, fix it for me."
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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