 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-11-23 02:41
What reed dimensions match a VanDoren Lyre M13 88 mouthpiece and where measure to determine this? What brand and type would automatically be correct? Want to try to match mouthpiece to optimal-sized reeds but not exactly sure what measurements to compare..
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-11-23 03:34
BGBG wrote:
> What reed dimensions match a VanDoren Lyre M13 88 mouthpiece
> and where measure to determine this?
Most reed companies (including, I've discovered, Legere) make their reeds all the same dimensions and grade them for stiffness afterward. So the strength is generally dependent on the flexibility of the individual piece of cane. You'd need a gauge specifically designed to measure reed strength for yourself, but you may as well let the reed manufacturers do it and take their word for it.
> What brand and type would
> automatically be correct?
The honest answer is none of them. You can use Vandoren's strength guidance as a starting point - they begin at #3-1/2 for a M13 Lyre and go up to a #4 for traditional, 4-1/2 for V.12 and 5 for 56 Rue lepic. The best strength is a personal choice and there are too many variables involved for there to be one ideal strength or model. Once you get away from Vandoren reeds, the range is even wider. You just have to experiment.
> Want to try to match mouthpiece to
> optimal-sized reeds but not exactly sure what measurements to
> compare.
The best you can do is to start with one brand/model and find what you like best, then if you want, try other brands/models starting with the same strength, moving softer or harder if the result is different across brands/models.
There is no universal answer.
Karl
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-11-23 07:31
Thanks. I just thought there might be a way to measure MP and find reed measurements to match. Thought I saw something like that posted somewhere. I never really considered matching until I saw it mentioned and didnt want to miss anything.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2016-11-25 16:23
Karl, is it really so with legere too, that they make reeds with same specs, and then they just sort them to different numbers?
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-11-25 19:15
I don't know from any authoritative source, but I have measured the Signature Euros that I've been using - including 3-1/2, 3-3/4 and 4, using a PerfectaReed tool and they all seem remarkably consistent in physical dimensions. I don't know if Legere considers this information proprietary - I haven't asked anyone there directly - and the measurements I take are probably limited in their precision, but from what I can see, the reeds don't differ in thickness from one strength to the other.
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-11-25 23:38
When the Legere reeds were initially launched (at Clarinetfest 1998 in Columbus, OH) Guy was making more than one profile, and eventually marketed different profiles/designs as you probably know.
However in each profile the varying strength comes from the stiffness of the material- and one of the things I recall him being excited about when he initially developed these reeds was that the stiffness (or strength) could be accurately controlled when using an artificial material. This strength could not only be accurately controlled, but would be consistent throughout the reed- so you had a product that would always vibrate symetrically.
The first prototypes he shared actually came with a wide variety of strengths (so, 6 steps between 3 and 4 if I remember correctly) and this was controlled/achieved by varying the material used not the design.
dn
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-11-26 03:12
I just read a reference that said that the vamp area of the reed must be the length and width of the opening in the mouthpiece so it can seal and vibrate properly. I dont know how true this is but except for a few reeds, most of the group I am working on must have the bark shaved down to aas much as 5-6 mm from the original boundary. Since I do not know what to use and dont think I have equipment except maybe a Dremel tool sanding wheel, i may have to abort attempts to make them play. They simply had to be trimmed back too close to the vamp bark. I need 32 mm tip to bark to match MP opening.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-11-26 05:28
BGBG wrote:
> I just read a reference that said that the vamp area of the
> reed must be the length and width of the opening in the
> mouthpiece so it can seal and vibrate properly.
Well, yes, generally, unless something different works as well or better. For example, the Legere Euros are wider than other clarinet reeds (Legeres or cane) and the taper is shorter than the curve on most mouthpieces. But somehow they work better IMO than any of the earlier models with more conventionally sized vamps.
> except for a few reeds, most of the group I am
> working on must have the bark shaved down to as much as 5-6 mm
> from the original boundary.
Well, you said you clipped 6 mm off the tips, so you'd probably have to move the whole vamp down the reed 6 mm to restore the proportions of the design. You might get away with less. You'd have to find out by trial and error. You play reeds, not rules.
> Since I do not know what to use and
> dont think I have equipment except maybe a Dremel tool sanding
> wheel,
If you're VERY careful with the Dremel, it might do using very light pressure on the tool. Or a file. Most players I know who do any adjusting at the bark end of the vamp use either a knife (we've already covered that) or a flat file.
> I need 32 mm tip to bark to match MP opening.
But maybe *not* to get the reed to play. You aren't, you said earlier, trying to restore the reeds to greatness. If you want really good reeds to play on, you'd be far better off (we've already covered this, too) chucking the ones you clipped and using fresh, new reeds that you shouldn't clip 6 mm shorter.
If you're doing this as a learning process, use any hand tool that does the job of removing the bark without forming a divot and then smoothing the taper with whatever you normally use to scrape the vamp - rush, sandpaper,. ATG, razor blade, etc.
Karl
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-11-26 07:13
Sounds like you've got it right, Karl. Like I might have said, I have lots of good reed and except for 3 or 4 originals, they all play well enough to suit me. They go back about 2 years and I rotate them so only play one a day and I may not play every single day. But it is not about having or affording reeds. It is mor about the challenge and interest in learning about something for its own sake. I personally think what I am trying to do is impossible but since I have no real experience or instruction I cannot really say that for sure. I probably will never throw them away but if need some more good ones I will certainly buy some rather than try to re-manufacture them. I have all I started with except one which was lost and another which the tip part was so split and damaged I threw it away. Right now I am thinking about how to move the bark junction back a bit until I can get a note to sound. Maybe over the winter i will have more time to work on it. Usually I never clip them but as I might have said I ruined these and had to clip them even if it did ruin them more. Didnt know at the time they likely would not be reparable. If nothing else I will have learned what cannot be done or at least by me. I enjopy trying but have to take more time for playing.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-26 11:28
Even though I know a ton about reeds, I usually break them in during a week long period. After that I play on them, make a few minor adjustments as the weeks go on and I do NOT rotate the Sreuer reeds. If the reed plays well I don't want to waste practice time and orchestra time rotating reeds. I will play the same reed until it dead. I of course have a few backup reeds ready at all times, which are just as good.
Since switching horns I went from a 3 1/2 to a 4 strength reed. I only do one thing right out of the box. Smooth the top of the reeds towards the back using 2000 grit WET sandpaper. Then I use 3000 grit and finally I seal this area by the back of the 3000 grit wet sandpaper. To do a the 10 reeds it's about 60 seconds per reed. I do not get close to the tip area. It's usually already smooth enough. While doing this I usually throw away 1 or 2 reeds because of uneven cuts from looking at the sides of the reeds. Often I will keep them, but if they are too thin the reeds are useless.
Mitchell Lurie played the same reed for 6 months often 8 months before changing reeds.
I also keep the reed ON the mouthpiece, dry it off a bit after playing on it and let it warp naturally to the facing of the mouthpiece. I'm not the only player that does this practice. It it starts looking a tad dirty I will wash it in a washing machine with bleach, on the heavy cycle - kidding! I will wash it with my fingers only using just 80 degree temperature water with very diluted mild hand soap. No longer than maybe 20 seconds should be plenty.
This has several advantages with few or any disadvantages. The main advantage is you can count on the reed playing correctly all of the time once it it broken in. Another big advantage is you know by the feel of the reed if it needs an adjustment or if it is on its way out. So for me the feel of the reed always being consistent is such an advantage when playing all of the time. This is why I hate changing reeds and rotating them. If the cane is good they will last me 4 to 7 weeks with 4 plus hours of playing per day, so why rotate?
When you rotate this doesn't assure that your reeds will last longer, if anything they may always need constant attention every time you play on them. Weather, all of that, will screw with how the reeds play, but if you play on them everyday the weather isn't that much of a concern, unless you are playing one day in the rain and the next day it 10 below zero.
To be totally honest, right now I have 2 spare reeds in my case which are great. Being a Steuer reed importer I could have an unlimited supply of 1000's. I will work in a reed or 2 this week. But not more than that. Why? Because they change, even in California the weather changes, so that rotating reed from 2 months or 1 week ago may squeak, chirp, or to be sold at "Duck Dynasty!" as bird calls. That reed could also get hard or soft on you.
So rethink this a bit, It's great to know how to adjust a reed in seconds if needed, by knowing the FEEL of reeds and what to to. In my opinion a person should know how to adjust reeds, maybe not to my level, but enough to get yourself out of a scary situation during a rehearsal or a concert. I carry a reed knife and 500 grit sandpaper just in case.
So BGBG forget about the vamp, the length, rotating the reeds, measurements all of that, unless you enjoy it. In this case go for it.
Buy the Fred Ormand book on reeds. The best $30 or so you will ever spend.
I cannot stand the M series Vandoren mouthpieces. They tune too low and the distance between the rails in not right. You asked a great question. The cost of a very good mouthpiece, well it's too high because it plays flat on R13 horns and the tip opening is way too small at 1.01 mm's Even double lip players aren't fond of the mouthpiece. The bore is too big and the length is too long. The clarinet world is going the wrong way. The average facings should be around 1.07mm's. Players want that dark sound so Vandoren gave them that German tip opening.
I'm not telling you to run out and buy a new mouthpiece. They work, but it's one of those mouthpieces which I can't do anything with except put a much better facing on. I did this at the recent ClarinetFest and a lot of players, all of them were advanced students, freaked out with joy when the sound opened up and they could now be heard. The famous words were "My teacher told me to buy this!" Well now that you are playing with the correct reeds, the correct reed strengths, and a free re-facing and you can hear yourself play, ask yourself, was your teacher right?
BGBG I'm very happy to watch you grow on this site. Lot's of smart people and really amazing players here. Some are ranked as some of the best in the world. The key is to have fun and if you enjoy playing and adjusting reeds let me set you up for free with some amazing reeds and and a free mouthpiece. Then you will have a general guide if what a really good setup should sound like.
BGBG - Next year you may be teaching us some new tricks. The mouthpiece will be an old GREAT mouthpiece that plays well and the reeds will be broken in for you - to a point. These will be your general guidelines of what you should looking for. Many times I've plated for a week or w with a chipped tip corner of a reed. It still sounded great so keep playing on it. Point is, forget about the looks of the reeds sometimes, but do not forget about the basics about adjustments to reeds.
When you write or if you write let me know what strength reeds you are playing on and allow me a few weeks to set you up.
My goal in life is to make clarinet playing fun. BGBG, I sent you a free box of reeds a while ago, never heard back, so ONLY contact me if you are serious. Please don't reply unless you are serious. PLEASE don't get the wrong idea, I don't expect thank you notes. I was just hoping that the reeds helped you or made things worse at that time. savagesax10@gmail.com.
This Thanksgiving I got about 50 cards from people thanking me for discounted reeds, often free reeds and mouthpieces, plus helping them as a private teacher, 1 in Mexico, 1 in Chile, and one in South Africa. Some countries cannot afford a reed. Well I cannot afford in my heart to let this happen.
This was the best Thanksgiving one could ask for and in these countries they don't really know about Thanksgiving in the USA. My favorite note, message, and email card came from a person in NYC born in USSR. WOW! That touched my heart dearly.
Music is so powerful and I want to help everyone I can, even if they cannot afford a reed I will get them one.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend folks.
B
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-11-26 11:29)
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-11-27 04:36
SUCCESS. Using a half round file mounted on a handle and a .001" dial caliper I removed material until the vamp of the reed was again 32mm, the length of the reed vamp that came with the clarinet, a Buffet E-11. I sanded the top and bottom with 240 - 600 grit paper. I used utility blade to remove material on the rails at a 45 degree angle. I put reed vamp in water for a minute and put it on mouthpiece. I was able to play the lower two registers on pitch and with a good tone and not too hard or soft reed action. Did this in about half hour. I figured if I arranged reeds longest to shortest order and numbered 1-10 and began with the shortest #10 and get it to work I would likely be successful as the modification amount decreased.
Now I wouldnt throw all my other reeds away and keep this one nor would I clean out trash cans for all the broken worn out reeds I could find, but I am happy with what my limited knowledge and experience accomplished in half hour with simple tools and advice from you forum posters and what I read online and viewed on YouTube. Want to refine this one a bit more then start on the other nine. Thanks for the help and suggestions.
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-11-28 05:02
Got 3 reeds working pretty good. Do you think though that since reworked they should be broken in again?
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