 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-06-07 16:22
I have recently attended a fabulous course with a well known reed specialist
He said that when he was younger he would have many reeds on the go at any one time, would spend hours preparing them, would test them all before a performance, pick the 'special' one, and then be worried that it would give out half way through the concert
One day he played with Jack Brymer who just got a brand new reed, "slapped" it on, sat down and played, producing a beautiful tone. Ever since then he has used a new reed every time he plays, whether on clarinet or sax, and has never had a problem. To my ears he has an amazing tone on both instruments
Are we kidding ourselves with breaking in reeds? Discuss
(Incidentally, before he was sponsored, he was spending well over £1,000 a year on reeds alone)
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-06-07 16:46
Certainly a point. My experience is that it depends on the mouthpiece.
On my German setup reeds loose power and brilliance within a day. Even, when rotating 4 reeds at the same time. May be I have to try stronger reeds and hope they get playable after a few days and last longer then.
On my French setup (shorter and more open facing) reeds last longer.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-06-07 18:38
Strictly one-use reeds - hence the annual bill north of £1,000
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-06-07 19:26
I am skeptical.
1) Some time ago I asked this community what if they had to use a brand new reed in a performance setting (unexpectedly)- would it be OK or not? Many said no no no, might be OK at the outset but would not last, would turn to mush before much play. I concur. Maybe I'll find that thread and link to it.
2) As an adjustment to #1, I find different brands and models of reeds behave differently over time. Some can give their best play on day 1- at least for a few minutes, others require some patience. (This is in an average sense- all reeds have scatter in behavior within a box of 10... some more than others of course.) So a player who never goes beyond day 1 will automatically select for a brand that does well that way, and I do think they exist. But those are not necessarily the best performers overall. YMMV.
3) Legere Classics and Signatures have always been wonderful for me for a day or 2. If I had the budget to play a new one as soon as I needed it, I would never have embarked on any of my harebrained reed investigations or schemes. I wish I could get the company to just give me an unlimited supply for what, $30/month? Might be a bargain, and they'd still make money. I never had the $$ to try all the other synthetic alternatives. Maybe I'll try a Legere European eventually.
Touchy subject for me. I am finally in control (I think) of my own reed situation. I just could not leave this topic alone. Hope I don't regret chiming in.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-06-07 19:42)
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-06-07 20:03
Ahhhhh.... thank you, Legere! I've ordered several Legere reeds on Amazon trying out different strengths. They aren't all perfect, mind you, but Amazon will pay for the return and replace with no questions asked.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-06-07 20:12
I've been breaking in, testing, choosing, etc. reeds until about ten years ago. Since then I have an even more primitive method. I use a new reed but not every time I play. Instead I use that same reed until it's not good anymore or until it breaks (about 60/40 I'm guesstimating).
I use every reed in a box unless it's too hard or soft. Too soft almost never happens. If it's too hard I sand it and see if it's ok, which it is about half the time I guess. Overall I use most of the reeds and one can last between a couple of minutes and a couple of months.
It doesn't really matter what anyone says or does. You try and see if it works for you. What I mean is, it's good to have suggestions but the approach described in some of the posts of globally dismissing other methods is ridiculous.
Also see this video https://youtu.be/aXOvjmpJ1L4
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-06-07 20:26
The bottom line is "what works for you is good".
But this professional wasn't saying we should follow his example. We were talking about reeds, and what types we used, and how we prepared them. He gave us his experience and left it at that. But it certainly got me thinking. I can't afford his extreme regime, but it made me question whether I play the reed, or whether the reed plays me
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-06-07 20:57
I used to spend time on preparing and breaking in reeds, and realized that I was spending time that could have been put to better use. I tried various synthetic reeds with varying results, and concluded that Legere work best of the synthetics for me. Today I use Legere reeds and also Vd 56 Rue Le Pic 3's. I don't prepare these in any way, I just clamp one on and use it until it doesn't work well anymore. Any that are too hard or too soft I will work on once, if that doesn't work I discard them. I generally get 8-9 good reeds out of a box and for my level of playing a box last me about 3 months.
I'd like to say that all of the time saved is spent on practice, but we all know that it's not true. At least I don't have to worry about reeds anymore.
Tony F.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-06-07 21:20
My experience of using new reeds is that they can vary dramatically in the first minutes of playing and subsequently over following days. I believe in breaking in reeds properly for maximum performance and longevity. I'm not saying that's the best way for everyone else but it works well for me.
By all means use whatever method works for you but don't assume it's the best or only way for anyone else
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-06-07 21:25
4) What we demand of reeds varies considerably. That perhaps is the largest factor. How long we play, in what ranges, what style(?), how continuously. How tolerant or finicky is our equipment setup or embouchure. I grant there are some players who could play anything well on just about anything. Good for them.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-06-07 21:38
I get that Brymer used a new reed each time. But aside from the fact that most of us can't afford that, and would probably consider it a big waste not to reuse reeds, was that "any old" new reed, or one he might have taken time to select?
Let's assume we could use a new reed each play session. As to the issue of whether we're on the whole as a group over fussing with reed prep--probably.
I think there's something to be said about how a great clarinetist, while on the one hand is often extremely pedantic and demanding in all gear related to their play, can on the other hand make great music from a not so great (and new to them) setup given the importance of adaptation in clarinet; particularly to a less than optimal reed: cane or synthetic.
I'm not anti prep. I do it in all phases of a reed's life. But playing with a not so great reed, especially in practice, I think, is just as much an opportunity for the player as a liability: an opportunity to make the best of the imperfection that comes with playing this instrument.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2016-06-07 22:15
I wonder about the term playing on a "new" reed. Does that mean right out of the foil wrap and onto mpc. Or, a reed that he has played for say a hour or two previously but negating the typical classic, week or two, break in procedure. Or is new more of a figure of speech?
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-06-07 22:26
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> I get that Brymer used a new reed each time. But aside from
> the fact that most of us can't afford that, and would probably
> consider it a big waste not to reuse reeds, was that "any old"
> new reed, or one he might have taken time to select?
It was a ritual at many lessons with Gigliotti that, if he didn't especially like the reed you came in with, he would toss it and replace it from his own stock. He took the reeds from a cigar-box-like container full of Vandoren reeds. Never, as I remember (it *was* a long time ago) did he put one of those reeds on my mouthpiece and find it unplayable. They all worked, sometimes with a little balancing.
When I bought a sealed box off someone's shelf in those days (or even through traveling friends directly from Vandoren), there more duds than usable reeds in them. The ones in his cigar box must have been reeds he had culled from the hundreds that I know he bought. He must have pre-selected them somehow and tossed the unplayable ones.
I'm sure he either used those selected reeds himself as well or had an even more highly selected cache put away for his own use. So when he took a new one out, it wasn't a random pick.
Every reed is different from every other reed, but trying to play a reed that responds not just imperfectly but barely at all is not a way to build flexibility but to start bad habits. I think any great player must be able to tolerate a range of imperfection in the reeds he or she uses, but that range needs to have limits.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-06-07 22:29
That's a good point. I read "new" as one that has not been played a significant amount of time (it may have been tooted on for a few seconds just to see if it vibrates, but no more). Once one has been played long enough to soak the tip, it isn't new any more.
If others mean different things, it would be important to the discussion.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-06-07 23:00
Perhaps many of us are dancing around what amounts to about the same thing. Immediately reject unplayable reeds at any stage- first toot, 2nd day, 20th day (maybe the 20 day one is just worn out). If you're skilled at adjustments, give it a try, but not much before rejecting the reed. Play a reed each session until it quits, be that 5 min or 4 hours. Then toss it or put it away for another day, depending on your mood and bank account. Keep records carefully, moderately, or not at all- as you wish.
I have wasted a lot of good practice time trying to play mediocre reeds... thinking surely either just a bit more trimming or sanding, or better play on my part- would improve at least some of them. Perhaps I got some benefit out of that, I hope so. But it was a false economy. (Edited to add- while I certainly did improve some of the poor players to a perhaps usable condition, I do not think I ever took a reed of any brand that initially was bad- allowing for 1 try at adjustment- and had it become a real winner. That's my own conclusion, and I paid too much for it. But at least now I know.)
At the end of the day, if you get 2-4 or more good players out of a box of 10, you're doing OK. Right now I feel like a millionaire with ~15 good reeds that came out of 5 boxes of 10. (Some of the 15 may yet give out prematurely.) Maybe I'll give the other 35 to my grandkids for craft projects.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-06-08 20:02)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-06-07 23:56
I think I remember someone posting a story here about Paul Meyer unwrapping a new Vandoren, putting it on, and walking out to play a recital. For me, break-in is more about increasing a reed's longevity than it is about the reed improving. There would be no problem playing a concert on a new reed, but it would likely be done after that.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-06-08 00:08
New in this case means straight out of the wrapper, straight onto the mouthpiece. However, what we didn't discuss was whether he 'warmed up' a reed before a performance by playing it for a short time beforehand.
He was just giving his point of view, not saying "this is how it has to be". However, he was clear that every time he took his instrument out of the case he used a brand new reed with no adjusting. Any changes he made were to reed placement or ligature. Hence the fat grand's worth of reeds he went through in a year, not something I can afford!
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-06-08 00:58
I kind of wish I could do that. As far as expense goes, I think it would be a wash for me, at least if I were only playing soprano. A new reed every time taking it out of the case would be between 2 and 3 boxes a week, and if I'm playing soprano a lot I open two boxes a week and pick/break in the best ones to keep a rotation of 6 or 8 going.
I also open a couple of boxes of bass reeds a week, but at 5 reeds a box I'd run out pretty quickly using a new one every time I opened the case.
When I was in NZ the second player claimed that she used one box of reeds a year. She used every reed in the box, and would play one reed at a time, from new to trash, then take the next one in the box. From the standpoint of economy, I think she would have to be the champ, at least in my experience.
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-06-08 10:27
I'm sort of busy, but here's a few notions....
1) some famous players (well, at least one still living) brag about playing reeds out of the box, but then sound AWFUL. No one tells them this because they are all being sycophantic. Not saying Jack Brymer fitted this description, but that it's what I have witnessed.
2) If you are buying reeds that are slightly harder than you can perform on, or at the same strength, then the balancing becomes quite important. This is as much to do with how the mouthpiece/embouchure/reed selection are interacting. I know that when I use my Lomax A3- V12 3.75s and 4s NEED to be balanced. If I buy a box of 3.5 many of them are too soft for me to play FF, a few of them are perfect, but they are all "PLAYABLE" (well, except for the really really bad cane).
I have always suspected that when people brag that "I bought a box of XXXXXXX (insert brand name) and they were all perfect out of the box" that this was most likely because they had found just the right strength to match their setup- just hard enough for dynamics/tuning to be stable, but soft enough to be forgiving of balance issues. Sometimes when people say they can play 10 out of 10 reeds from the box, I suspect it might be because their standards are not very high, but as this is the internet I have no way of really knowing.
3) I once measured about 3 or 4 boxes of reeds from different companies using the Perfectareed device. They were pretty much all unbalanced with about the same statistical variation.
4) I LOVE the idea that we should play the reed, not let the reed play us. This is a great philosophy, and is an even better one when the reed is well balanced and with good cane.
5) with my current mouthpiece V12 3s are mostly too soft to perform on, but all play very easily. I love just pulling out any reed and making do- adjusting MYSELF so that I can play on it. This is great until I'm at a gig with colleagues listening to me critically, and I realise I should make more effort to find a better reed.....
6) If you spend a bit of time playing Legere on a daily basis (and this is mostly about finding a MOUTHPIECE that matches them) you will discover that they play different every day. OR, is it YOU that has changed.... hmmmm I reckon that we change from day to day- so regardless of whether we SHOULD or not, being able to adapt to a non idea setup is almost certainly a good thing.
Post Edited (2016-06-08 11:39)
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-06-08 10:31
Jack Howell- I know who you are talking about, I just played next to her a few weeks back for a recording the RNZ Navy band... when you were in NZ I think it was about that time she bought a mouthpiece I'd refaced off me... or maybe that was a few years later.
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-06-08 10:44
btw another colleague of mine (who now only plays professionally a few times a year but used to be in a major international symphony) performed a concerto in about 2001 using a reed that gets pulled out and used for gigs etc TO THIS DAY... it sounds fabulous... for the first 5min, then loses all core and has very unstable intonation. That reed should have been done with years ago and this fact has not gone unnoticed by several "non clarinet playing colleagues" who now prefer not to use that player....
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-06-08 17:49
Never fail to lose sight of the biggest factor in how you perceive a reed plays or feels: you. You are are always changing -- not only from day to day and hour to hour but from minute to minute. This, in large part, is at the root of the so-called reed problem.
I had an opportunity some years ago to meet the great Swiss oboist, Heinz Holliger -- arguably one of the greatest wind-playing musicians of the 20th century. He was on an international tour, playing concertos with six major orchestras in North America. His reed case contained (I kid you not) four, well-worn reeds. I asked him how he could manage with so few reeds. He said he would probably use two reeds at the most over the course of the tour and that the other two would be back up. I was dumbfounded. He then went on to explain that he had learned over years to adjust to his reeds. "We are always changing," he said. "We have to be able to adjust."
I've heard Holliger play, live and on recordings, a great many times and he always plays like a God. And I never fail to think about his comment about adjusting to his reeds. I conclude that at some point, one can become such a master of one's instrument that reeds just cease to be a problem. Now, that's a goal to strive for, wouldn't you agree?
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-06-08 18:02
You may be right, PG, but we mere mortals still have to search for the reeds that work for us.......
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-06-08 18:53
pg@writeability.com wrote:
> He then went on to explain that he had
> learned over years to adjust to his reeds. "We are always
> changing," he said. "We have to be able to adjust."
>
Other top-tier players have said or written the same thing. But, to keep this from becoming sacred dogma handed down to the "mere mortals" to whom tucker refers, keep in mind that those four reeds were not lousy reeds that he was forcing to play well by dint of his own flexibility and personal commitment. They were selected to begin with - very possibly hand made by Holliger himself. Certainly, a given reed can feel different from one day to the next, and a player's ability to adjust to those changed sensations (whether caused by variability in the player or the reed itself) is an important real-world survival technique for a performing musician at any level.
"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" applies very directly - you can't make high quality music on an unresponsive, un-vibrant piece of cane (or plastic). You need to start with a reed that works and then play it.
Karl
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-06-08 19:34
I certainly agree with you, KDK, that he was surely using reeds he already knew worked well for him. But there was no doubt that his ability to adjust to the reed over time was remarkable -- as was his sense of security in going on a concerto-playing tour with major orchestras with only four reeds.
While he was in Montreal, he gave a masterclass. One player was having real trouble with some low notes in the famous Marcello oboe concerto. Holliger was patiently assembling his oboe while this was happening. When the student finished, he said that his reed was closing down on him. Holliger asked to see it, put it on his oboe and began to play. At first, the low notes did not speak. Holliger said, you're right, then put the reed back into his mouth and played it without any problem whatsoever -- articulating in the difficult low register at a "ppp" volume to show that the problem could be overcome. There was an audible gasp from the audience of (mostly double-reed players). Holliger handed the reed back to the student and said "Reeds can be a problem but we've got to live with it." For the rest of the class, he never said another word about reeds.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-06-08 19:47
Donald wrote:
"3) I once measured about 3 or 4 boxes of reeds from different companies using the Perfectareed device. They were pretty much all unbalanced with about the same statistical variation. "
curious if you care to share names sir.
I'm a woodworking clarinetist, both by hobby. The former hobby doesn't make gear for the second, but puts me in touch with some pretty precise measuring equipment, like the Perfectareed is.
I found some Vandoren reeds I tested pretty close to symmetrical by size, if not response. My testing size was not statistically significant; I did not test other manufacturers.
Please don't infer this as a plug for, or criticism of, any reed manufacturer.
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Author: Dick
Date: 2016-06-08 22:35
It would certainly be nice to have a time machine and go back and see what the original "masters" did and how their instruments sounded.
Dick
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-06-08 22:45
Reeds change as you play on them, new or already played on. At an audition I surely use the best reeds I can. I'm sure pros can write about their auditions and performances that didn't go well from a poor playing reed that changed. I once went from rainy weather in Baltimore to NYC and it was snowing. The reeds went from great to YUK.
As a student of Gennusa's, Eddie Palanker is so correct. And also Eddie a well described way using the words "A sweet taste of honey." I said this before that Iggie was so upset about reeds one day at a lesson at Peabody Conservatory he actually went home because he felt so sick.
As players we are all different. Reeds to me mean everything. They meant everything to players such as Bob Marcellus, the recently retired Michele Zukovski, great instructors such as Fred Ormand who a wrote a fantastic book about reeds, Ricardo with Philly who was so sick of looking for a decent reed went to Legere, the list is endless.
I thing the future may be great plastic types of reeds, but there may always be those, the advanced players and the pros that want that "Sweet taste of Honey!"
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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