 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-05-20 15:32
I have struggled with finger speed and smoothness for a long time
Originally this was definitely down to tension but this is no longer a major issue. I thought it might be a question of ‘muscle memory’ – although my brain ‘knows’ where the fingers should go, the fingers themselves have other ideas. As I got to know my way around the keys this was also less of an issue (but still needing much work). I practised scales, exercises, etudes, isolated difficult transitions, tried playing slow, tried forcing the fingers by playing quickly (people said that the fingers would have to move smoothly at speed – all that happened was that I couldn’t play accurately). And still my fingers were slow and ragged
The way I was originally taught, and the way so many books and internet advice teach (and other clarinettists), is to flex the fingers from the knuckle and keep them curved, so the fingers go up and down. For instance:
“Finger action actually originates from your arms! Use your big knuckle joints to wiggle your fingers and watch the muscles on the top of your forearm near your elbow. There should be some movement that you can see. In technique, most of the finger movement occurs from your big knuckles. It also shouldn't change the curve of the other joints in the fingers. Fingers should move straight down onto the keys and tone holes swiftly, but not forcefully.”
This works well but, especially when moving the index fingers, this is slow and tends to move the whole hand – “jazz hands”, “hot keys” and “fingers on holiday”, all ways people have described my hands! Also it is underlined that the student must close the holes with the pad of the finger
I have been experimenting over the last few months with finger movement, in particular how I open and close keys/holes and how I position the hands. I have changed my approach from the technique I was taught in the beginning to a new way, and things have improved and my fingers have started looking like fingers of players I admire or who play professionally. The only way I can describe it is that the fingers sort of ‘press’ into keys, rather than articulate up and down
The way I have been experimenting is to anchor the left and right index fingers to the clarinet so that they actually flex at the first joint from the knuckle, and not at the big knuckle itself
Not only does this make the index fingers much quicker in movement but it also means that the other fingers move much less and are more economic. Finger movement is minimised – really only one finger moves at a time, rather than sympathetic movement from all – and this seems to make it much easier to play arpeggios – almost as if the fingers know where to go, whereas when flexing from the knuckle and lifting fingers cleanly up and down, the arpeggios ‘make less sense’, perhaps because fingers - other than the actual finger that closes the hole - are moving sympathetically (although they have no sympathy from me!). This technique of anchoring the index fingers also means that my right index finger closes the hole not with the pad, but with the part of the finger close to the joint line
When I point out to good players that they don’t move their fingers in the way they prescribe, they normally say “well, the proper way is to flex from the knuckle” and then demonstrate it by playing very slowly. Is it a case that they actually aren’t aware how they move their fingers – they have one technique in their head that they were taught as beginners, but when it comes to playing normally they use a different (better, more efficient?) one that they have discovered along the way?
So questions:
1. Am I on the right track?
2. Is this how you play?
3. Why does so much information, in books and on the internet, advise flexing from the knuckle? Is the information wrong, or is this they way beginners should play then, when they have the basics sorted, move on to a more advance technique?
4. I was told a couple of years ago by a profressional that I needed to learn ‘legato’ fingering, although they didn’t really explain very well what they meant. Could this be it?
5. Obviously different techniques suit different players. Artie Shaw definitely didn’t have minimal movement, but then we’re not all Artie Shaw and there may be a dominant technique that suits most players?
I should point out that I started with one teacher and moved on to another – perhaps this change in technique was missed out?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-20 18:54
Very interesting.
Lately I've been obsessing about finger movement in preparation for using a full length mirror with my students (poor kids have NO idea what they're in for). I always experiment on myself though before I put them through the gauntlet.
What my focus has been is MINIMAL movement. In only about a month, I have made improvement in my playing be SEEING as well as feeling how far my fingers move off the respective keys.
I too have found the right index finger to be a trouble spot, but for a different reason entirely. For me, the issue comes in when engaging the lowest sidekey which we use ALL THE TIME for lower Ebs and higher Bbs. I wind up doing "pointy finger" for the index finger to engage the sidekey. I can't seem to get around it.
As for your use of the 'second knuckle,' I think you have found a solution that works for you. Typically there is more of an issue for folks differentiating the movement between the middle finger and ring finger. This is a physiological given since they share a tendon.
The part about the sealing the first tone hole of the lower joint with the proximal portion of the finger tip sounds dicey. But if you get a decent seal, that's what counts.
As for playing legato, Keith Stein would say, "move your fingers as if they were suspended from spider webs." What you want (for lack of a better term) is a bit of judicious smearing from one note to the other. When playing legato it is too jarring to hear movement from one note to the other as if executed by a tuner or a video game.
And I might suggest that what you describe as a problem with arpeggios is still related to not isolating the movement enough. Slow practice means, slow enough to get it cleanly, and properly. If it's not, you need to slow it down to the point where you can literally move ONE FINGER without engaging another (that is not involved). Here perhaps, the full length mirror may be just what you need. Of course I say that before being lynched by my studio.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-05-20 21:16
I am fairly new to clarinet, but I have seen the exact same situation in brass playing with respect to embouchure. One way is taught, but that is not what they actually do. They will deny that they do what they do, and froth at the mouth if you insist it is, even after seeing themselves do it in the mirror! I had to accept that a large portion of people do things that they are unaware of when they play.
Your description matches very well what I have found works best for me....in particular I am anchoring my right index finger between the first and second joints, and I think the "pressing" the keys is a very apt description. I also think people who are in the learning process are MUCH more aware of what they are doing, and that confusion with the dichotomy of what is taught compared to what observation shows, is rampant.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-20 22:10
My cautionary advice would be to watch videos of fine orchestras and see if that matches up with what you are seeing out of your local musicians.
This "anchoring" may work ok for the "up/down" motion, but how do you incorporate movement TO the sidekeys and BACK from the sidekeys with this method? Wouldn't the anchoring slow that down? Remember we have a lot of different key centers with which to work, and trills that need to be trilled.
Both right and left index fingers have some complicated extra movements they must perform. It is the middle finger (of both hands) that ONLY moves up and down.
I wouldn't want anyone reading this to get into a habit that takes herself/himself out of contention.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-05-20 22:22
I won't be in contention for anything in the near future except 3rd clarinet in an amateur band, so now am worrying only about getting some basics in place. Perhaps my use of the term "anchor" implied not moveable, but for me it is more a positional issue, having "a particular place" that is the reference point for the motions required. Good advice on the more advanced techniques that may be required.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-05-21 13:49
Apologies for such a long initial post, didn't realise until I hit 'Post'!
Mirrors are good to check finger movement
Using the second joint to move fingers rather than the big knuckle, I draw the analogy of kicking a ball by moving from the hip or from the knee - the latter is much less effort and quicker
'Anchor' may not be an ideal word as it implies 'securely fixed'. My left index is 'anchored' on the G# side key, but it's not fixed - it sort of hovers over the key and is in contact with it, but in a relaxed way. It really uses the G# key as a useful guide
<<I too have found the right index finger to be a trouble spot
I find that with the right index 'anchored' to the clarinet just below the Bb side key I only need to rotate the wrist slightly to nudge the key open. Again, minimal movement
With the right index finger 'anchored' in this position the hole is naturally sealed with the bit next to the first joint rather than the tip. It seems to work ok after an initial period of readjustment
Not sure I understand what is meant by "move your fingers as if they were suspended from spider webs"?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-21 15:31
Touche'
I am staring at a clarinet and cannot figure out what you mean by "G#" key. Can you describe it in a different way? I can only imagine the right index finger laying upon the rod of the lower joint rings.
The description of rotating the wrist sounds similar to what I see some folks do to "nudge" the "A" key with their left hand. In either instance, this is a bad thing.
Let me explain.
Though it sounds innocuous enough on the surface (just a little movement), what you do when you rotate your wrist is to circumscribe and arc with the center of your palm as the pivot point. So not only are you 'nudging' the key in question, you are also throwing fingers two, three and four OUT OF ALIGNMENT. I know it's not a huge distance, but in fast passages it will be enough to make accuracy impossible.
The "spider webs" remark is a visualization to get you to S-L-O-W down the movement of the fingers as they LEAVE a hole (or key) and as they COVER a hole (or depress a key). In that way you create a slight 'rounding' of the edge of the note (rather than ON and OFF......you get a slight "in-between" fuzziness). The opposite effect to LEGATO fingers would be to slam you finger down in an exaggerated manner going to the next note (or pick up the finger in a 'snapping' like movement). There is room in practice to do that exaggerated "quick" movement a few times at a slow tempo through a short difficult passage to attempt to reinforce muscle memory. But, shake it off after a few iterations and go back to normal movement right after. You DO NOT want to make a habit of the "snappy" movement (that is also BAD).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-05-21 16:24
Paul, I think you're mixing up fingers. I wrote, "My LEFT index is 'anchored' on the G# side key..."
As for the right index, yes it rests lightly on the rod
I agree, if the palm moves so the little finger comes up this moves all the fingers further from the clarinet. I guess it would be more accurate to say the hand moves parallel to the clarinet and slightly to the left (but the wrist doesn't move)
Thanks for explain the spider web idea
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-21 16:46
Paul Aviles wrote:
> The "spider webs" remark is a visualization to get you to
> S-L-O-W down the movement of the fingers as they LEAVE a hole
> (or key) and as they COVER a hole (or depress a key). In that
> way you create a slight 'rounding' of the edge of the note
> (rather than ON and OFF......you get a slight "in-between"
> fuzziness).
Paul, this has come up here before and I have never understood it. Why would you want to create "a slight 'in between' fuzziness" between notes that are meant to be connected cleanly and smoothly (legato)?
Karl
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Author: William
Date: 2015-05-21 18:56
Charles Neidich is one fine clarinetist with absolute technical control of his instrument. With his multiple articulation and circular breathing skills, he is describe by my former clarinet professor as, "Unstoppable". And what he told us in a local clinic a few years ago regarding finger action might interest you. He said, "I just let my fingers fly all over the place" and then demonstrated a flawless F# major scale, bottom to top, in a nano second (very fast).
I suggest you may be too concerned with specific finger action. Also, realize that smoothness comes with experience (years of all kinds of playing) and perhaps you have not yet "paid your dues" in that area. Forget the mirror and concentrate more on your ears--always try to play how your brain tells you to according to your mental concept of what is good. For that, you also need years of listening experience--CD's, live performances, etc. This can be a never ending process as no matter how many players you hear, there is always going to be that next performance that will be better than all the rest. And most of us continue to pursue that unreachable goal of absolute perfection, knowing that while we may never reach it, we will in it's persuit achieve excellance. Yes, you NFL experts, that is a paraphrase of the Green Bay Packer's legendary coach, Vince Lombardi. I think it has relevance for us musicians as well.........keep on keeping on, and enjoy the journey.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-05-21 20:00
You're probably right, I'm obsessing a bit!
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-21 20:42
William wrote:
> I suggest you may be too concerned with specific finger action.
The movements needed to close and open holes are to an important extent individual. The clarinet's size is constant from one player to another. The player's hands are the variable and they can be very different from one player to another in length and thickness of fingers as well as the relative lengths of each finger to the others and to the thumb.
We tend naturally to adopt hand positions that give us the most comfortable fit on the instrument. Hand position largely determines the way the fingers move. Very long fingers need to be held and moved differently from short ones. Thumb positions depend very much on the relative length of the thumbs and that of the longest fingers in the middle of each hand. Everyone's hands are different.
Finger movement (as all movement) is controlled by the opposition of flexion and extension. If an attempt is made to impose a hand position that isn't compatible with a player's hand, the result can easily be a loading of extra tension on one side or the other that can make movement more difficult.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-21 22:46
Dear Karl,
I used the OPPOSING idea of "snapping" from note to note (on/off, as opposed to SMOOTH connectivity). For example if you purposely slammed your fingers down going from note to note in the slow movement of Beethoven's Fourth, it would not sound right. I don't have a handier way to put this into words. But to hear the two played side by side, I'm sure you'd say,"hey, that other version sounds like a real legato."
Jonthereeds,
Thanks for clarifying that (I was once again not paying close enough attention). If that works better for you to achieve a reasonable product, that is fine.
I did look back at the other posting where you did mention wrist movement. Also, I cannot see a way to move your palm from one attitude to another without engaging the wrist (unless you mean you do this at the elbow which would be even worse). As long as you are not fixing one problem by causing another down the chain of events you should be fine.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-05-21 22:52)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-05-22 00:20
Jon, A video of you playing a chromatic scale at a slow, moderate, and fast (whatever that means for you) tempo might be very helpful in you getting feedback that is relevant to your situation. As interesting as this discussion is so far, you want more than well-qualified guesswork if you are going to be using the input here in making decisions about something so fundamental to your playing.
Also, do you happen to have any double-jointedness in any of your fingers? This is surprisingly common. Depending on which fingers/knuckles and to what degree, it can make a standard hand position challenging or even, in some cases, inappropriate.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-05-22 01:00
JonTheReeds,
I move all of my fingers from the knuckle (and also use the whole hand/wrist for trills). I've found that moving some fingers from the first joint and others from the knuckle causes problems: for me, very rapid and/or complicated passages are hard to coordinate when fingers are moving in different ways and from different positions. What feels best (again, for me) is finger movement similar to that of playing a piano--i.e. primarily from the knuckle.
At any rate, I think what's important when dealing with technique isn't the hand position or how far your fingers travel off of the keys but rather the movement itself. I try to move my fingers as slowly as possible--sort of similar to how they would move in water. This technique makes fast playing fluid and slow playing quite legato (though you do, contrary to what Paul says, have to move them fast enough to avoid glissandi), and it also helps keep the fingers free of tension.
A lot of amateurs (and maybe even some professionals) think that keeping their fingers close to the keys is the secret to good technique. It isn't. The fingers remaining close to the keys is the result of proper technique (if you're moving your fingers slowly, they don't have time to travel far from the keys). In Charlie's demonstration (that William posted above), he was showing that the relationship between keeping the fingers close to the keys and good technique is one of correlation not causation.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-22 04:21
brycon wrote:
> A lot of amateurs (and maybe even some professionals) think
> that keeping their fingers close to the keys is the secret to
> good technique. It isn't. The fingers remaining close to the
> keys is the result of proper technique...the relationship between keeping the
> fingers close to the keys and good technique is one of
> correlation not causation.
In fact, deliberately focusing on limiting the finger travel rather than the way the finger moves can introduce a level of tension favoring the flex part the motion that can interfere with smooth movement and control.
Karl
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-05-22 05:01
Quote:
In fact, deliberately focusing on limiting the finger travel rather than the way the finger moves can introduce a level of tension favoring the flex part the motion that can interfere with smooth movement and control.
Absolutely--I've seen some students whose technique has been ruined by band directors/lesson teachers zealously admonishing them to "Keep your fingers close to the keys!" In many cases, they begin to move their fingers like JonTheReeds describes ("If I only move the tips of my fingers, the fingers will stay closer to the keys...").
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-22 05:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I used the OPPOSING idea of "snapping" from note to note
> (on/off, as opposed to SMOOTH connectivity). For example if
> you purposely slammed your fingers down going from note to note
> in the slow movement of Beethoven's Fourth, it would not sound
> right.
I guess I take a different view of the process. I can't get my mind around a period of time time, however short, of "fuzziness" in the connection of one note to the next. Intuitively, I sense that the hole is either open or it's closed (Zeno's paradox notwithstanding - the time between open and completely closed is short enough IMO to be instantaneous for practical purposes). Good legato means closing the hole all at once (in a practical sense) with as little disturbance to the air stream as possible, either by physically jarring the instrument or causing a sudden change in the integrity of the air column. Again intuitively, I find myself imagining that, if I slam my finger(s) down forcefully (unarguably ruining the Beethoven 4th solos), I may be causing a sudden increase of air pressure *into* the hole, a pressure increase at a right angle to the direction of the sound waves. I'm sure that if this perpendicular pressure spike actually happens (it *is* only a mental image that I can't demonstrate empirically), it would disturb the sound wave enough to cause a change in the character of the sound, interfering with the smooth change of pitch that characterizes good legato.
If this image is in any way close to the reality, then good legato isn't a matter of closing the hole slowly (which should produce either loss of control - squeaks or non-response - or a gliss of some kind), but one of closing the hole quickly - all at once - but with as little force perpendicular to the clarinet (and the air column it contains) as possible.
This brings me back around to Jon's original topic. To close a tone hole all at once, you *have to* bring your finger to the hole straight down. If you come from any other direction, you must close the hole from one side to the other - almost certainly back first to front last, which I have found causes all kinds of havoc in my own playing. Not a question of distance, but of direction.
But then, we no doubt actually end up doing the same thing using opposing images, since neither of us wants to slam our way through the Beethoven 4th adagio.
Karl
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-05-22 14:04
brycon wrote
<A lot of amateurs (and maybe even some professionals) think that keeping their fingers close to the keys is the secret to good technique. It isn't. The fingers remaining close to the keys is the result of proper technique (if you're moving your fingers slowly, they don't have time to travel far from the keys)…
I understand that fingers being close to the keys may be a result of good technique rather than the other way around (although Artie Shaw and Charles Neidich may beg to differ!). By ‘good technique’ do you mean moving the fingers slowly? If so, I don’t understand what you mean by this. And how does this apply when you need to play very quickly?
<…In many cases, they begin to move their fingers like JonTheReeds describes ("If I only move the tips of my fingers, the fingers will stay closer to the keys...")
It sounds like I’m not on the right track then with this finger movement?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-05-22 20:35
JonTheReeds,
I just meant that the fingers don't move any faster than they need to. The way I practice this technique is to play finger exercises (like the trill exercise from JeanJean's Vade Mecum) at a very slow tempo and move my fingers so slowly that they create a portamento between pitches. I then speed up the opening and closing of the fingers just enough so that the portamento goes away--it ends up feeling as though I'm squeezing and releasing the clarinet with my fingers. When I play fast (and I'm looking for a very smooth affect), I move the fingers in much the same way but at the quicker tempo.
There are other components to good finger technique (such as feeling the rhythmic pulse in the finger movement), but that's the basic finger movement that I use.
As I said before, Neidich was illustrating that he doesn't think about keeping his fingers close to the keys; he's more concerned with the finger movement. Having studied with him for many years though, I can say that he doesn't lift his fingers very far from the keys.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-05-23 08:37
I've known a number of fantastic players whose fingers broke all the rules. They are outnumbered, though, by fantastic players whose fingers are models of precision and economy. Many people run into problems when they try to achieve the same results as a genius by copying his eccentricities. I give all my students three finger rules, roughly cribbed from a Marcellus master class in the 80s:
1. The fingers must, whenever possible, maintain a consistent curve.
2. The fingers must, whenever possible, move only at the largest knuckle.
3. The speed of each finger's up motion must equal the speed of the down motion. The speed of each finger's motion must be equal to that of the other fingers.
I agree that there are players whose fingers break all of these rules and you would never know it only by listening. The question is whether the student at hand is one of those players who will somehow achieve great results with unorthodox technique, or whether that student will always be held back by inefficient, disorganized finger technique, and the way forward is to impose some logic that will eventually make speed possible. Because it is generally obvious by the time a student gets to college whether or not he or she is a Neidich-class talent, the answer is generally the latter, that it is time to stop compounding errors and establish some good finger habits.
Without the opportunity to see and hear the OP, it is impossible to say just how wise it is for him to abandon orthodox finger technique, but even if it IS wise for HIM, that does not mean that orthodoxy in this case is wrong. Most accomplished players DO have clean, economical finger technique.
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Author: Chad
Date: 2015-05-24 21:52
Fascinating discussion people, I do enjoy hearing the mechanics of playing broken down so forensically.
Don't have much to add but to follow on from the observation above; that the movement of the fingers begins in the forearms, my first instructor was a great observer of the elbows of her students.
She had a special chair for those with flappy elbows...
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-06-04 18:07
Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm not sure I know which way to go yet, but will carry on with JeanJean's Vade-Mecum and see if that helps. If Jeanjean is prepared to walk with me, then I should at least walk with him part of the way!
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2015-06-08 00:02
Comments: if I recall, Bonade Clarinet Compendium has some notes on fingering and suggested exercises.
I have noticed SOME beginner clarinets do not have keys in best ergonomic arrangement so it is awkward to play those. Also some of those seem designed for smaller child hands. The length and size of your hand will play a part. Sometimes the thumbrest is not in best position.
I think there would be uncomfortable joints after a bit if did not use primarily knuckles. However, this is not like a bagpipe where there are no keys. Some say curved as if holding a baseball lightly.
I think a good way to learn is to practice legato scales and other exercises and listen to. What sounds best. What gets you around surrounding notes? Do fingers make a sound coming down or cause an unpleasant sound? Should not hear finger changes in your musical line.
If you can do smooth legato later translates into smooth faster. It is a matter of not pressing down but just enough, not squeezing (if this is required clarinet needs adjusting for sure) and lifting well. Maybe think more in terms of lifting up instead of pressing down?
You can practice independent finger motion by tapping individual fingers lightly on a table surface. Move fingers one at a time, leave others down, yes move more from knuckles and have them somewhat curved. You can also do on a pencil, though it is smaller area.
Yes muscle memory is big part of it.
Fuzziness may be instrument problem, not your fingers.
If one has larger hand/longer fingers, there will be more curve, maybe more tendency for not playing from knuckles. I think most just use as beginner guideline and adjust as time goes to what sounds best to them. Personally, if no better starting place. I would go for what feels comfortable and relaxed AND gives best most connected sound from one note to another.
I am sure some of my notes might not be primarily knuckle all the time and depending on surrounding notes. Remember part of efficient fingers is learning when and how to implement alternate fingerings. These are human hands, not robot hands. When first learning, I do not recall concentrating on how my fingers moved physically. I do recall doing practice as described and in trying to get things smooth sounding, the fingers were automatically doing correctly.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-06-08 01:54
Mitchell Lurie told me a long time ago to think of my fingers as little sausages at the end of my hands. He probably got that from Bonade or Tabuteau.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-08 02:39
Wes wrote:
> Mitchell Lurie told me a long time ago to think of my fingers
> as little sausages at the end of my hands.
I certainly respect the source (Lurie), but out of context I have no idea what this means. Can you expand it?
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-06-08 11:05
Well, I believe that he meant that the fingers should be free of tension and be relaxed. The hands, arms, and shoulders would also be relaxed. If they were little sausages, one could not put a tight vise grip on a clarinet hole or key with one's finger.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-06-08 11:31
I think he had it spot on. My fingers frequently feel like sausages.
Tony F.
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