 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: evasivechicken
Date: 2013-01-16 22:54
Hello all,
I've spoke to a couple of people with regards to a different approach to "breaking in" reeds. However, I still feel like I'm not quite getting the success that I am desiring.
Recently, I have been taking V12 #3.5 out of their vacuum packaging to allow them to get used to the San Francisco climate. After a couple of weeks, I'll then soak them in water for 1-2 minutes and leave them out to dry overnight. The next day, I'll rotate playing on them for only 5 minutes each, soaking briefly to get rid of saliva and leaving out to dry again. I then repeat this process playing only 5-10 minutes the next day.
I have noticed an improvement, but I still find that I am faced with the same problem for a majority of my reeds: they sound stuffy, rather than "clean" and responsive.
Am I missing a trick? Is there more that I need to do to my reeds? I've tried using other brand reeds (admittedly not that many) but always gravitate back to the V12s. However, I'm still not content and feel that it is a hindrance as I try to practice and perform without constantly worrying about the poor reed quality.
In case it helps, I am using a mouthpiece tailored by Ramon Wodkowsky. It's sort of a cross between an M13 and a Hawkins...but slightly more open. Difficult to describe!
Thanks for any advice!
-EC
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Author: kev182
Date: 2013-01-17 00:03
I've found that only using saliva and wiping the cane slightly with fingers/or cloth, helps break down the fibers more quickly and helps seal the pores, eventually producing a clear, responsive reed.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-17 02:13
So much that you read about reed routines is personal prejudice. So be ready to get lots of different answers taking lots of different positions with the players, in some cases, insisting that their method is really the only one that produces success. So, a few points with no pretense that they are anything more than a reflection of my own experiences:
I know several players who let their new V12s and 56 Rue lepics sit out of their foil wrapping to acclimate them to local atmospheric conditions. I don't know about San Francisco, but here in the Philadelphia suburbs the conditions change daily - sometimes hourly. I'm not at all fond of the foil wrap - it's a nuisance to open and generates a lot more trash for the local landfill. But I have not found that the V12s or Rues I've opened and let acclimate play any better after a month than ones that I try immediately after unwrapping them.
One thing I think I'm confident in suggesting is that soaking brand new reeds for 1 - 2 minutes is at least 30 - 90 seconds too long. I'm not sure what a long soak is meant to accomplish, and in my personal experience it can sometimes be destructive.
I do rotate new reeds through three or four short playings - starting with a few minutes and gradually increasing the playing time on each. I'm not at all convinced that this is useful in the long run, but I find the response of a thoroughly soaked reed to be less than optimal and trying to adjust it in that condition can be destructive.
I have to say, though, that the "trick" I've found in the last year of dealing with stuffy and unresponsive V12s is to use something other than V12. They were my staple reed pretty much since Vandoren first introduced them. In fact, I find lots of reeds from my collection of older, originally rejected ones that play very nicely on my current setup. But I, like you, have found the recent ones stuffy and dull sounding unless I use a lower strength, which then gives me responsiveness but a brighter and thinner sound. I have tried several reeds that I like much more (including Pilgerstorfer Rondo, Rico Reserve Classic and, yes, 56 Rue le pic) and have come to the conclusion that something must have changed in the V12 profile (since presumably the Rues are made from the same cane, eliminating cane quality as an explanation).
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-01-17 02:34
On new V12s, I don't even try to play them until after several days of soaking, drying, sanding lightly, and repeating etc. The grain rises when you wet them and the raised grain are stiffeners. Silicon carbide paper # 400 or so can be used to sand them.
After several days, I then try them and check whether they need further sanding to make them vibrate at both the top and the bottom of the clarinet with a clean, vibrant sound. On the tip, I sand a V shape, kind of like an oboe reed tip.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-17 02:48
So, I'm curious - did you need to go through as extended a routine, say, up to two years ago to get V12s to play?
I'm not positive when I started finding that they played differently, although I think it was when the branding on the back changed from the black surface stamp to whatever engraving process they're now using. But, although I've read one or two explanations of why that alone might have made the difference, I haven't seen one that really makes complete sense to me. Maybe the change in branding was done to coincide with some change in the profile along the sides of the vamp.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-01-17 11:04
I agree with Karl's comments about soaking them for a long time. Mark Nuccio's break-in process works very well for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y0Zv3EZ-Ms
Some mouthpieces work very well with certain reeds, but not with others. Perhaps your mouthpiece and 3 1/2 V-12s are not the best match. Don't be afraid to try softer V-12s, perhaps 3s or even 2 1/2s. Also experiment with Rue Lepics in various strengths, along with Rico Reserves, Reserve Classics, or Grand Concert Selects.
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Author: avins
Date: 2013-01-17 11:50
I tried out V12 some time ago but got the same stuffy results, I just left them in the draw , and continue using the traditional #3.5 , though ,I think Ill just use rico in future , I prefer them , at present using GC TB , I find that wiht the Rico I get more "more" crispy sound and better articulation , on my VD M30. I've just ordered rico Reserve Classical #3.5 , and cant wait to try them out
All the best
Avins
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-01-17 14:14
See "Romancing the Reed" in two parts in the Clarinet, about 20 years ago.
richard smith
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Author: William
Date: 2013-01-17 18:51
FWIW, I have given up breaking in and adjusting reeds and now use only synthetic reeds, Forestone or Legere. They give me more time to play the music without having to worry about playing the reed.
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-01-17 19:18
I break in reeds by just taking it out of the foil, letting it sit for 3 or 4 minutes or so. And then, i soak it for 1-2 minutes, play on it a little bit, determine if its too hard or not (usually they are because i get 56 rue lepics 3.5+) and then i sand it down with i think 320 grade sand paper. i usually do 8 strokes and then test it again. i also sand down the very bottom of the reed (the totally flat side not the curved side) like the very bottom half an inch or so. After it is totally done and i feel good about it, i use grape seed oil. It helps with the sealing process a lot. My reeds are actually very responsive and produce a nice tone and good articulation. If you have questions don't be afraid to ask!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-01-17 21:05
Hi KDK!
There was no difference to me when Vandoren changed to a sealed package or when they changed the printing on the bottom. The procedure I use is very simple and quick, used for at least 20 years. It is also used to prepare reeds for my far away three clarinet playing grandchildren, one of whom played in Carnegie Hall in 2010. When I mentioned that to R. Morales, he said "Why didn't you call me?"
In the late 40s, I played on Handlon reeds from Earl Handlon, who was Marcellus's first teacher. In the 50s, I used Vandoren and have mostly used them since, except for use of some Olivieries and an occasional Rico.
I almost never touch the flat side, except to scrape off crud on a well used reed. Crud will limit the upper range some. Good Luck!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-17 22:00
So you're sanding the tapered vamp side, not the flat back?
KArl
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2013-01-18 16:23
I too am among those who played V12's for many years until about 2 years ago when they seemed to lack the tone/response I was looking for.
I have tried a number of brands since then and found that on my Greg Smith 1+, B40s and even my M30s, the VD Traditional's seem to yield better results (i.e., a clearer, deeper sound and better response). I've also found that (for me) the Rico Reserve (non-Classic) reeds yield the tone I used to get from V12s. For some reason, (to me) the Reserve Classic reeds seem too "inflexible" - maybe they work better on close mouthpieces.
The point is, some experimentation with various types of reeds can be helpful in finding the brand/cut of reed that really suits your mouthpiece and its facing. If you get a compatible reed-design, then adjustment should be easier.
As noted above, everyone's approach to reed-adjustment is different, but here are some notes on what works for me. My approach to adjusting reeds is motivated by the material in Bonade's Clarinettist's Compendium.
I don't lay out all the reeds from a box as I used to - I don't have the time. I just take the next reed from the box and play-test it to see if it is reasonable. If not, I put it away (for later experimentation). I'll play-test the reed for a couple of minutes at most. I play reeds in frequent rotation so new reeds get played each day for increasing amounts of time. No reed gets played more than about 15 minutes as the circumstance/repertoire allows.
I don't work the back of the reed, but I have heard that it can help. Mostly, I have a 2x4" "plate" (glass/plastic) and use reed-rush (wetted and cut into flat ~3/16" squares) as a small "file" to smooth and balance the vamp, or to soften the reed a bit.I personally believe that lightly polishing the vamp smooths irregularities that harm a reed's tone/response and it also helps to seal the pores. I will also clip reeds that are/become too soft.
In my experience, working the right side of the reed (as it sits on the mouthpiece) improves response and clarity (even in older reeds), while working the left side warms the tone (possibly at the expense of response). Working the rails (particularly on V12s) can improve clarity and "deepen" the sound (i.e., enhance resonance). Gently working the very tip of the reed (e.g., 1/8"-1/4") can yield a smoother/warmer sound. I often work the tip and right-side together in a kind of inverted "L" pattern.
I only make very minor changes to one area of the reed and then retest. If the reed improves, I might continue the work the area until I think I've gone far enough. If the result is worse, I will "undo" the change by working the other side of the reed, or clipping it if I've made it too soft/unresponsive.
Finally, I store my reeds on a flat surface (cases like the Rico or Harris/Selmer ones that have glass. I often keep the case in a sandwich/freezer bag so I can regulate the moisture content (unless using the Rico which has a humidifier-bag in it).
I hope this is helpful. If you are systematic in experimenting to discover what works for you, I'm sure you will devekio techniques that take relatively little time but yield significant improvements in your reeds.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-01-18 16:45
no i am sanding the flat back side. Also be careful not to sand the actual tip of the reed where you play because it will destroy the reed. if you would like, i can make a video on youtube. I have a concert tonight but can do it this weekend!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-18 17:41
Ah! I confused your post with the one that followed it from Wes. I understand what you're doing.
Karl
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2013-01-19 10:20
I take the reed out of the box, put it in my mouth for a few seconds, play on it. Repeat for all reeds.
During the coming week, they're all considered a work in progress until they become a little more stable. If a reed is ALMOST decent, I balance the tip. If a reed is giving me trouble, I throw it away, no use wasting time on it.
I used to mess around with reeds a LOT, but these days I find a more carefree approach is working really well for me. We need to remember that the reed works for *US*, not the other way around!
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Author: evasivechicken
Date: 2013-01-21 22:49
Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses. I had never seen Mark Nuccio's approach to breaking in reeds and see that it is rather different than the current approach that I have been using. Definitely worth a try.
At one stage, I tested out a couple of different reed brands but found it very difficult to move away from Vandoren reeds. Perhaps I didn't give the exploration enough time though I would imagine that "better" brands of reeds would be evident fairly early on in the testing phase?
However, I will try a couple of the suggested approaches first and see if that helps the situation. Otherwise, it's back to the daunting (and expensive) task of searching for a different brand again.
*sigh* Who'd be a clarinetist...?
Thanks again.
-EC
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-21 23:28
evasivechicken wrote:
> ...I would imagine that "better" brands of reeds would be evident
> fairly early on in the testing phase?
>
Only if you hit the right strength for your mouthpiece and embouchure approach.
Karl
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Author: evasivechicken
Date: 2013-01-26 06:03
Regarding Mark Nuccio's reed break in, when you come to play on the reeds the next day for a slightly increased duration, are you meant to go through the same process dipping in water then rubbing the vamp? Or do you just give it a good old fashioned lick and start playing?
-EC
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Author: William
Date: 2013-01-26 15:18
A short story: last evening at band practice, the young lady seated next to me--who plays a set of Tosca Buffet clarinets (she is good)--took out her humidor full of cane reeds, proceeded to search through at least three prepared reeds for one to play. None seemed satisfactory, so she pulled out two boxes of fresh reeds which she went into to find a rehearsal ready reed. After all of that, and twenty minutes into the session, she still was adjusting the position of the selected reed on her mouthpiece and was having audible troubles with articulation and tone quality. When she does find a "good" reed, she is a fine sounding clarinetist worthy of the Buffet Tosca's she plays. Last evening was not her finest hour and one-half with her cane reeds.
Me?? I got my clarinet out, put on one of my Forestone 4.5 reeds and played the entire rehearsal with great articulation and tone control. FWIW, my clarinet is a Leblanc Concerto Bb--customized by Tom Ridenour--with a vintage Chicago Kaspar #14 mpc I've played since my college days. I play Forestones on all of my clarinets and saxophones and, as a result, am able to play the music without having to worry about playing the reed.
(end of short story)
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Author: evasivechicken
Date: 2013-01-26 17:43
I am pleased that you have such wonderful articulation and tone control success on Forestones and can subsequently focus your great playing on the music, but this short story does little to help someone who has merely requested advice on how better to prepare reeds. I appreciate that obsessive reed preparation is not to detract from the ability to actually play music, but since this is a forum of many differing ideas and experiences and my first true foray into reed preparation, I thought it a useful place to glean some different suggestions. I have already taken your recommendation of synthetic reeds into consideration and appreciated your initial response further back in the thread. But since I am not the kind person who you play next to in band, I feel that specific reed preparation suggestions are of more use at this stage.
Thus, I'm curious to know whether the purpose of rubbing the vamp (as per Nuccio's video) is meant as a one time thing, or ongoing throughout the break in process?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-26 18:01
evasivechicken wrote:
> Thus, I'm curious to know whether the purpose of rubbing the
> vamp (as per Nuccio's video) is meant as a one time thing, or
> ongoing throughout the break in process?
I don't know his purpose specifically, but I've always done this to older reeds as a way to speed up the process of flattening the tip (to get rid of the crinkling that happens when you first wet them). I've started doing it to new - first trial - reeds mostly on the strength of that video and imagine it may still accelerate the moistening process by pushing water into the fibers instead of waiting for it to wick its way in.
Karl
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Author: evasivechicken
Date: 2013-01-26 18:33
Thanks, Karl. That makes a lot of sense.
Is it recommendable to continue dipping briefly in water and rubbing the vamp each time you come back to playing the reed? From the video, Mr. Nuccio says that he probably plays the reed 6 or 7 times before it's ready for use. Does this meant to say that he does the water dip/vamp rub each of those 6-7 times? Or just the initial, straight out of the box?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-26 19:00
Well, the reed needs to be wet each time you play it. Some players prefer dipping in tap water to wetting with saliva. I've always found, either way, that the rubbing (ironing the tip) with my thumb is more needed as the reed ages, so I do it every time I wet a reed to play. I don't know what Nuccio does, but the tip crinkling gets more pronounced as the reed gets older. The point is always to have an evenly moistened tip area that is at its maximal flexibility.
Karl
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Author: evasivechicken
Date: 2013-01-26 19:07
I'll give the dip in water and vamp rub a try with one box, and simply a dip in water for the next box, just to see if there is a difference at all. It'll be just like high school science again...
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