 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetquestions
Date: 2013-06-03 20:04
My daughter is looking to get her clarinet overhauled. We just bought it a few weeks ago and are breaking it in per the instructions provided.
When we bought it the man told us that it would need to be set up. Who do y'all recommend to do this? She is a graduate student in Rochester, NY.
Thanks y'all!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-06-03 20:44
What is the clarinet (brand, model)? Who was "the man" who sold it to you? Is she a grad clarinetist at Eastman? If so she must already be familiar with the technicians in the Rochester area. If she's in some other part of U. of Rochester, she could probably get advice about good repair people in the area from someone at Eastman.
Karl
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Author: clarinetquestions
Date: 2013-06-03 22:40
We wanted to get the input of a different group of professionals. We know not everyone here is, but figured the people who'd offer advice would be worth looking into. Its a brand new R-13, and she and her teacher chose it.
We thought the people here would have some good advice about the available technician options in the US. We do know many of them, but wanted to see what y'all had to say since its a larger pool.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-06-03 23:59
clarinetquestions wrote:
> Its a brand new R-13, and she and her teacher chose it.
>
I'm a bit confused as to why you want to get a brand new instrument overhauled. If I tried out a new clarinet and it played poorly enough that I felt it needed an overhaul I wouldn't have bought it.
Are you sure that you don't just need to have some adjustments made?
Post Edited (2013-06-04 00:00)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2013-06-04 00:35
I interpret the statement as to minor adjustment and, perhaps, minor alterations to pad height where necessary. I concur that a complete overhaul should not be required.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2013-06-04 01:30
AN e=overhaul would entail disassembling the clarinet, replacing pads and/or corks. A new clarinet should need nothing more than adjustment of the keys to suit the player, once it is broken in a little. If it needs more work than that, chances are the seller never set it up properly to begin with,and said seller should be responsible for getting it into proper playing condition. For the price of a new R13, I would expect the darned thing to just about play itself.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-06-04 01:34
There will be a number of names suggested as you begin to get responses, but it might make a difference to know who actually sold your daughter the clarinet. If it was a repairman with a shop that's local to you, he would be the most logical person to do the kind of new instrument set-up/adjustment that he was talking about (as others have said, not a complete overhaul).
If you bought it through a store or online, then you *will* need to find someone to do the needed work. I think for this kind of work someone relatively local with a strong reputation would be better than shipping it off to someone farther away. Your daughter may need to work with the tech in person to get the most personalized result.
Karl
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2013-06-04 11:41
@Karl,
Yes, it's always best to work with clients in person. How I prefer to set up a clarinet may not be the client's preference.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-06-04 13:08
No matter how well an instrument is set up, I suppose a person might find reason to adjust key height, crows foot, or cork thickness a smidge. If a brand new R13 doesn't feel "almost in the pocket" right out of the box, I would look elsewhere. These horns can really sing. Mine felt good and it was 17 years old when I got it. Even then, it didn't need a "complete overhaul'. Any new instrument that needs a complete disassembly and reassembly before it feels right is not worth considering.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: clarinetquestions
Date: 2013-06-04 14:54
We were hoping y'all would have some info or personal stories about people like lohff & pfeiffer, taplin and weir, the kinds of people that do specialized "set-ups" for new clarinets. We've heard that they're both really great but are having a hard time choosing who to use. It isn't an issue of playing badly, its an issue of customization work. I wasn't clear enough I guess. Apologies to y'all.
We will get the info elsewhere since there is a weird tinge of unfriendliness here which is not what we thought it would be like. Sorry for bothering y'all. Good luck in everything!
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2013-06-04 16:20
<<We will get the info elsewhere since there is a weird tinge of unfriendliness here which is not what we thought it would be like. Sorry for bothering y'all. Good luck in everything!>>
Wow, I didn't get that at all from any of the above posts. My goodness, you try to help someone, and he spouts off like that. Good riddance, pal!
CarlT
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Author: Orlando Natty
Date: 2013-06-04 17:12
At the risk of being called out, I can see why s/he said what s/he did. Some (not all) posters on this board always seem to question the person asking questions in a way that makes them feel like should already know things. The whole point of a message board is to share and learn, but it feels like some are bothered when asked to do so.
Just because s/he used a bit of wrong terminology (overhaul versus adjustments), people started implying the horn he/she was asking about shouldn't have issues, and implying that s/he should already know some technicians. This makes it seem like they are questioning his/her intentions and/or implying that the question isn't legitimate.
While s/he was a bit unclear, there is a nice way to ask for more details and a condescending way. The following could have been said instead: "I'm not sure what you're asking; do you need technician recommendations?" or, "what kind of repair does your daughter's horn need?" Instead, people resorted to implications about the poster and the horn; that's the unfriendly part.
Now, some of the questioning may have been meant in the most innocent way, but it's hard to pick up on intent and interpret emotions on a message board. I just think people need to be more cognizant of this.
I got the same unfriendly vibe when I first started posting here years ago and I stopped posting for a long time. Because I have a renewed interest in playing I started posting again. Instead of getting upset like I did when I first came around, I realized it's not my problem if others are rude and/or condescending; I'm going to participate anyway.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-06-04 20:57
I did not notice a terribly unkind or abrupt series of responses to the "set up", "overhaul" question at the top. What I did notice is a bunch of people trying to set the questioner wise as to the reason an overhaul wouldn't be needed, and only minor adjustments instead are called for. I can't think of anything kinder than to inform a father who's daughter is buying an instrument that an adjustment is not the same thing as an overhaul. I used to have a thin skin but one wouldn't need to be thick skinned to co-exist with our quite friendly group here. I too am something of a newbie compared to folks here that know 20 times what I know, but I don't know of any group quite so helpful or so patient as this crew has been to me.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-06-05 01:03
FWIW-I was reading through the thread and did not sense any hostility. To my clarinetists mind, people were commenting or asking some of the same questions that went through my head. I know that for me to give any decent advice, I often need a bit more info to be able to better focus my answer to the needs.
I would try to find someone that I could visit in person, rather than mail the instrument. That way you will get personal attention to your liking. I would go in knowing what I want.
The new horns I have played may have needed a couple of switches of pads like going to cork for personal taste or some key tension adjustments. I would suggest playing it for a while and getting used to the horn before changing anything. Once the player knows what they are looking for, it would be easier to give advice. The nature of the work might change who I would suggest as some specialize in certain things.
I would ask the advice of the teacher who picked it as that is what they are there for.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-06-05 02:25
In my neighborhood, there was no one local who inspired confidence. I tried to get my instruments brought to a higher level and it was only when I went through the additional expense and trouble and sent my horn to Wesley Rice that I got what I was looking for in a sensitive repair. If youre lucky enough to live close to a real tech go for it. Otherwise, you need to send it out.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-06-05 03:05
I am not necessarily thinking "in the neighborhood". One may need to consider driving a few hours.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-06-05 03:26
Hi Clarinetquestions,
I live in Rochester, so I'll talk about a couple of local guys.
If you want to stay in Rochester, Carl Pellito at Shuffle Music on East Ave. does good work (he's been working on my stuff for 10+ years and I've never had a complaint). Since his shop is within walking distance of Eastman, I assume he works on some of their stuff. He's a woodwind specialist. I always ask him for a price and time estimate and he's pretty accurate with them. If he finds something else that he thinks needs attention, he'll call and ask if you want it done (since it'll raise the cost).
The only thing I don't like is that he stopped taking credit cards fairly recently, so I think he's cash only now (he'll take checks from established customers, I believe).
I've also had good results using Music and Arts. I don't know the name of the tech there that worked on my bass clarinet, but my throat Bb no longer sounds like death (and in fact is perfectly in tune with the trill key fingering). Their store is in Pittsford (short drive), though the tech that worked on my bass also works out of a shop in East Rochester.
Let me know if you'd like contact info for either of these places.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-06-05 05:25
I'm pretty sure this place http://www.thomasmusic.net is at or near Rochester. A friend of mine (who went to Eastman) went to repair his sax there a couple of times and was happy (I think it was Jen who worked on it). I have no experience with them but know Jen from a repair forum and have a good impression.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-06-05 12:54
Thomas Music has a good reputation. I just looked at the web site and saw that one of their technicians plays clarinet.
I often overhaul new clarinets, though I wouldn't necessarily recommend it in your case. Very often the seal isn't great, many spring tensions are heavy, Some of the "key cork" material (I call then key silencers now) are not appropriate for their position, tenons may be too tight, etc. It would be great if your daughter could borrow a clarinet that "feels" good to her and take it for comparison to the shop. Or bring notes.
Steve Ocone
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-06-05 13:01
I've never had work done at Thomas Music, but I know one of the owners (we play in a concert band together; I play bass clarinet and Russ plays bari sax.). He's a good guy. His place is in Irondequoit, which is close to Rochester.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-05 18:21
I could never understand why anyone would have a new Buffet or any other brand, overhauled right away. I've helped many students at Peabody and Towson Univ. pick out a new clarinet and the place I used to get them for the students would have a good repair tech or send it out to "set it up". That's to make sure everything is sealing properly, the corks fit right and all the key action is working well. When the student picked up the clarinet I'd advise them the play it and ask for any adjustments to be made for stronger or weaker springs etc. As what I've done with my own new clarinets, after a year or so of playing it and breaking it in would I consider having it overhauled by my own tech person. The instrument should be "set up" when it leaves the shop and working 100% properly, period.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-05 18:21
I could never understand why anyone would have a new Buffet or any other brand, overhauled right away. I've helped many students at Peabody and Towson Univ. pick out a new clarinet and the place I used to get them for the students would have a good repair tech or send it out to "set it up". That's to make sure everything is sealing properly, the corks fit right and all the key action is working well. When the student picked up the clarinet I'd advise them the play it and ask for any adjustments to be made for stronger or weaker springs etc. As what I've done with my own new clarinets, after a year or so of playing it and breaking it in would I consider having it overhauled by my own tech person. The instrument should be "set up" when it leaves the shop and working 100% properly, period.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2013-06-05 18:23)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-05 18:21
I could never understand why anyone would have a new Buffet or any other brand, overhauled right away. I've helped many students at Peabody and Towson Univ. pick out a new clarinet and the place I used to get them for the students would have a good repair tech or send it out to "set it up". That's to make sure everything is sealing properly, the corks fit right and all the key action is working well. When the student picked up the clarinet I'd advise them the play it and ask for any adjustments to be made for stronger or weaker springs etc. As what I've done with my own new clarinets, after a year or so of playing it and breaking it in would I consider having it overhauled by my own tech person. The instrument should be "set up" when it leaves the shop and working 100% properly, period.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-05 18:21
I could never understand why anyone would have a new Buffet or any other brand, overhauled right away. I've helped many students at Peabody and Towson Univ. pick out a new clarinet and the place I used to get them for the students would have a good repair tech or send it out to "set it up". That's to make sure everything is sealing properly, the corks fit right and all the key action is working well. When the student picked up the clarinet I'd advise them the play it and ask for any adjustments to be made for stronger or weaker springs etc. As what I've done with my own new clarinets, after a year or so of playing it and breaking it in would I consider having it overhauled by my own tech person. The instrument should be "set up" when it leaves the shop and working 100% properly, period.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-06-05 18:45
Garth Libre wrote:
> I tried to get my instruments brought to a higher
> level and it was only when I went through the additional
> expense and trouble and sent my horn to Wesley Rice that I got
> what I was looking for in a sensitive repair.
>
Good choice. Wes has done some really nice work on a few of my clarinets.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-08 14:08
"I could never understand why anyone would have a new Buffet or any other brand, overhauled right away...."
Fair comment, in an ideal world, but the world of instrument manufacture is far, far from perfect.
Putting aside the semantics of overhaul/adjustment/ and other terms referring to attention to the function of an instrument, I find it is rare that any clarinet comes from a factory playing as well as it should, and Buffet is no exception.
That is typically because of such things as the ring keys' pads closing at the "back" more than the "front", poor bridge key adjustment, poor venting for side Eb/Bb, a register key pad that has not been profiled for less air turbulence, and most notably, Eb/ and F/C not closing well (for one or more of several possible reasons).
For Buffet, if the instrument has bladder pads, then expect the membrane to be so thin and brittle that they will start splitting within a year or two.
Other than possible attention to the whims of timber, there should never be any need for any sort of "breaking in" if these things are attended to, and IMO they should be attended to before sale, which in my experience rarely happens. (That would eat into the profit of the sale rather!)
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-06-09 01:13
"... for Buffet, if the instrument has bladder pads, then expect the membrane to be so thin and brittle that they will start splitting within a year or two."
Is this an indictment of Buffet in particular or all basic bladder pads in general? Honestly, I believe simple basic bladder pads continue to seal nicely for years without splitting.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-09 05:56
No. Just an indictment on Buffet.
A few decades ago, Buffet used fantastic bladder pads, the best I saw anywhere. They lasted for many years. Not now.
I guess Buffet thinks that the pads are just for trying the instrument in the shop. Then you get it repadded with the pads of your choice, chosen from the plethora around these days. A bit like buying a car with an undercoat, and then post-purchase you pay to get it painted in the colour of your choice.
Or perhaps Buffet has just given up thinking...
Consider also the silly, brittle nylon in the linkages for the low levers.
And the brittle plastic "reinforcing" rings on the tenon sockets of cheaper models.
And the key cork adhesive that easily fails.
And for so long now, the short, thick F#/C# lever spring that offers such a sluggish action.
And the loose-fitting pivot point screws that have effectively only about 2 or 3 threads engaging.
And the stupid undulations in some tenon cork grooves.
And the cheap plastic cases that split apart, and the French E11 pillars that just sit in holes in the body and easily lift out.
And the adjustable thumb rests made form the most crappy cast metal imaginable, so that they break off so easily.....
Does Yamaha do these sorts of things?
Does Peter Eaton?
Does Howarth.
Perhaps it is a French disease.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-06-09 16:44
In spite of my belief that the tonal qualities of the Buffet R-13 have not decreased markedly or not at all over the years, I still believe that Buffet has made an error in the construction of their new horns. When I pick up an instrument that belongs to the orchestral family, I expect not just an instrument that is capable of reproducing the timeless beauty of the music from the last few hundred years, but something which physically represents that same timeless beauty in it's physical construction. The introduction of plastic parts that are fragile and add little to the playability of the instrument with the exception of a barely noticeable quieter action, is not advisable. Rubber clarinets are fine and even Greenline clarinets add to intonation stability, but plastic pins simply do not belong in the mix. The plastic action of Steinway pianos belong in this same category. If it doesn't add anything to the sound but cheapens the feel in your hands, I believe its a mistake. It should not only make timeless sounds but be constructed with an eye for timelessness too. The original case that my R-13 came in was one of those plastic monstrosities. I tore the case apart and transplanted the inner dividers into a leather case from the 60's. The plastic shell that remained I happily tossed into the garbage, not wanting the cheap stench of the plastic to cheapen the rest of my life.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-06-09 22:13
Garth Libre wrote:
> The introduction of plastic parts that
> are fragile and add little to the playability of the instrument
> with the exception of a barely noticeable quieter action, is
> not advisable.
The difference in the noise level is a lot more than barely noticeable - without anything to quiet it. The metal hitting metal makes a racket. The question is whether to use the old-fashioned expedient of putting a layer of pad skin or some other material over the pin or to make the pin out of something non-metallic that will not clank against the metal receiver in the lever. Unfortunately, Buffet seems to have chosen an inexpensive (read cheap) material to do this with, and the pins have a strong tendency to break off. The solution to the problem would be a material with enough tensile strength not to break but enough rigidity not to bend when the keys involved are engaged. I would applaud not having to replace the skins every few months, but replacing broken pins instead isn't a good trade-off.
Karl
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-06-10 00:37
As to the noise level of the LH lower segment keys, my mid-80's R-13 was worked over by Wesley Rice using some method that he employs. It is very smooth and very silent, and I'm certain that the original metal pin is in there with some coating like shrink tubing or the like. The response is instant and there is no slop -- 100% better than the current Buffet plastic pin.
My Malerne uses a fulcrum that pushes the key up from the bottom. (All metal, no plastic, no problem).
My Yamaha has a metal pin 7 years old from the factory, no slop, no plastic, not noisy - perfect.
What's the need of a fragile plastic pin?
I'm convinced the current Buffet pin gives a wonderful response without noise, but considering it can break at any moment, it seems hardly worth it.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-10 02:19
kdk wrote "I would applaud not having to replace the skins every few months"
I suspect that if you have to replace then that often, then there is a sharp edge damaging the membrane, &/or an unsuitable membrane is being used.
I consider that such materials should stand the test of some grinding between canine teeth, without being punctured
Some technicians use plastic materials like cling wrap or polythene, which fail miserably.
Personally I use two materials:
1. High quality "goldbeaters" skin - not the crappy quality Buffet is using on their pads! I cover a sheet thinly with top quality contact adhesive - Evostik, and fold it in half. The double layer, along with that extremely tough adhesive once cured, both improve the material. I cut from this sheet and glue to the pins, again using the contact adhesive - i.e. more toughness. This typically lasts for years.
2. Where there is room for thicker material, I use extremely fine woven, extremely tough yet still "moulding", thickness 0.045 mm, spinnaker cloth. This is a zillion times better than the thin leather that some technicians use. Leather fails the canine test.
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Author: RogerGarrett
Date: 2015-12-31 19:58
I was looking for a repair/technician to work on my bass clarinet via a search in google and came up with this thread.
Normally I don't read all the responses, because I just don't have time, but I noticed the original poster had asked a question that was pretty clear. They were breaking the clarinet in as per the instructions (they come with new instruments by the way) and they wanted the instrument set up.
It occurred to me that the person left the thread with a somewhat frustrated response to the answers up to that point because - not one person had given them a name. I found this to be funny and, sadly, typical of this board and the Karinet listerv as well. It was a pretty straightforward question - and it received no help at all. Even criticism for asking it in a particular way.
I saw Ed Palanker responded also - didn't think new instruments should need to be set up. This was my main reason for responding. BTW - I don't frequent these boards at all - just looking for a good tech ran into the thread.
Ed's statement is logical - but the sad truth is that most new clarinets are not set up well. Pads and adjustments aside, most of the tone holes themselves are not allowing for good sealing with any pad. grains, burs, non-level holes - you name it - just shoddy finish work on the part of the maker. This is why recent makers such as Backun are able to do so well - lots of care in the final product. Buffet makes a wonderful instrument. Having said that - my Bb and my A clarinets both went to Bill Brannen the day I purchased the instruments. Complete refitting of pads, corks, etc. as well as full tone hole work. The instruments, very good when I tried them, came back magnificent in every way. I finally took the Bb back to him this past year (it was purchased i 1995) and had two pads and a cork replaced. He also reworked some of the tone holes. So - no work done on the horn in 20 years - despite constant use with students and professional orchestral work. My A Clarinet, done in 1990, hasn't been touched by anyone since that time - and it plays fantastically.
I hope the original poster was finally able to get some good information. I noticed a few people in the end of this thread actually gave out names. I feel bad that someone can ask something so simple and receive so many requests for more specific information.
It's a clarinet folks. It isn't a car.
Happy New Year!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-31 20:14
It is not easy these days to find a repair tech who does repair because he/she enjoys the work (and consequently does a job they are proud of).
I too went to Bill Brannen back in the day. I was told recently that he only works on Buffet R13s now. I realize that it is much easier to specialize because then you only need to carry one size of pads, rods, pivots, springs etc, and you know what you will be looking at and how it should play.
I don't think that is very "sporting" of a repair tech quite frankly.
Repair techs that I've run into personally who love the job and do it well are:
Scott - South Florida Horns, Lake Worth FL
Miles Davis - Miles Ahead Music, Louisville KY
Jason Onks - Onks Woodwind Specialist, Smyrna TN
Bill used to be good..........back in the old days.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Something Music
Date: 2015-12-31 22:09
I think this got off topic.
Tell your daughter to ask your teacher about good repairmen in the area. If the teacher (if she's part of U of Rochester it could be someone else then Ken) doesn't have any suggestions the people here are a great resource.
However, if you have a question always ask your teacher first! Teachers should be your go-to for questions and you should feel free to ask them any question. If your teacher doesn't know good repair techs in the area it could be questionable.
That being said, be prepared to drive pretty far to a good repair tech.
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Author: Una
Date: 2015-12-31 22:29
You ask who is a good tech to overhaul a brand new clarinet and when told new clarinets don't really need an overhaul but maybe an adjustment, you act like a 5 year old and storm off angry claiming "unfriendliness"? If you meant "adjust" why not just correct yourself? Proof that correct grammar and use of the english language DOES matter when using the internet.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2015-12-31 22:33
I took my clarinet to Thomas Music this past spring when it got cracked playing in the pit. 5 pins in the upper joint and it plays well. Byron is the clarinet guy there and he does great work. Replaced the last couple bladder pads I had on the upper joint with cork pads as well. I highly recommend him.
I'm playing a show in the same place this coming March and am hoping to come across a synthetic clarinet to use (or borrow one). However, if the winter stays as mild as it has been, I may not need to worry about it.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-01-01 01:53
Of the three new R13s I've bought in the last 25 years, all were overhauled by me soon after purchase because the pads were single skin substandard, the springs were too strong, pad heights were not optimum, rings were too high, and some keys needed adjustment. While they all played good when new, they are much better after the overhauls. One I picked from a dozen at the Buffet facility when it was in California, but it may not have been the best one there. They had an acoustic room with a repair shop at that site and Mr. Kloc was very helpful. Yet, for the dozen new R13s I tried there, all needed some work. The purchase cost of these three new R13s was quite low, however.
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