 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2011-10-03 02:48
I'm a little baffled by some of the marketing I see about the benefits of ringless barrels, bells and joints. It has been said that not having metal rings improves the resonance of the clarinet but then why wouldn't the same idea apply to the use of metal tenon rings? Do those metal tenon rings on Prestige, Opus, MoBa clarinets restrict resonance? I'd like to know why or why not this would be the case.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-10-03 03:06
My impression is rings on the outside of the instrument provide support. For example, marching band kids with loose middle rings tend to break the middle tenon due to lack of support. It creates a stronger bridge than just wood/plastic would. That being said, by having such a large distance between the inner bore, and outside of the instrument, means less swelling on the outside when you play. The outer tenon rings rings aren't effected by the swelling just as all your keys don't get jammed as you play.
Now, regarding the inner rings. The wood swells most noticeably on the inside of the clarinet as you play. This can be constricted by those inner rings because of their closeness to that inner bore. People believe it constricts resonance because of its proximity to the boar and not allowing the wood flexibility. Personally, I had rings added to my R13 to prevent the wood from chipping more than it already has.
I think this whole debate falls into the heated category if you do or don't oil the boar. What really matters is if YOU can hear the difference, not what people tell you. Look at other woodwinds for example and see if they're removing these rings for sound. Personally I think people are copying Backun to make an extra buck.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-03 07:52
You ask a good question. I think that all being equal, you must be right - the addition of the tenon rings actually should make a difference to the resonance of the instrument. Of course looking at the difference in the overall thickness and weight of the rings on a standard barrel (or bell for that matter) vs. that of the tenon caps, one would not expect to find nearly the same "damping."
I have become a believer in the "ringless" barrel for more vibration (at least as it is noticeable from THIS side of the clarinet). I am also looking forward to a wooden ring style to try out (soon........but not soon enough!!!).
Whether the effect of the tenon ring on the sound outweighs the advantage one gains for protection (and this in itself is a topic ripe for debate) is a matter of personal choice. But it would not seem to me (I never had a before/after scenario) that the damping effect would be VERY slight for such a thin piece of metal.
.....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-03 17:33
Surely tenon corks will dampen vibrations, would they not?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2011-10-03 17:40
Good comment, Chris, as usual! Even your fingers and thumbs will dampen vibrations, but we can't stop playing for that!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-10-03 18:08
Now, explain how a high-quality all-metal clarinet can sound indistinguishable from a wood clarinet! ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dick
Date: 2011-10-03 18:22
I think this is all mostly O-S-C-A-R M-A-Y-E-R.
Dick
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-10-03 22:39
> Surely tenon corks will dampen vibrations, would they not?
They surely dampen buzzing propagating through a whole instrument.
And besides, beefy fingers dampen the sound at the tone hole level more than would bony fingers, which brings us back to Oscar M... :-)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-03 23:01
Ok, let's not be too flip about it. The METAL added to wood has an effect. Of course if all of you want to think its just hooey, you can just send me your all of your "snake oil" Backun bells and barrels (I'll cover the postage).
I am NOT saying a metal clarinet will not sound wonderful. I only say that once you HAVE a given system, you can alter it with the application of dense, less vibrant additions. Cork is light weight and not even should have been brought into this discussion.
Another example is the Rovner ligature with the option to add those heavy metal bars. They claim a "darkening of the tone," or some such thing. It DOES make a difference to the player's side of the clarinet, like it or not.
.....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-10-03 23:19
I too think there is a difference to the player's side of the instrument, and even if there is only a mental effect, the result might be heard by the audience. (I think it's a placebo effect, but hey, if it improves the result, who cares?)
I personally think that my playing would be improved more by 200$ worth of "tone" lessons with a pro than with 200$ of gear.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-10-04 01:58
I'd suggest we put wooden tenon and bell rings on our metal clarinets. That should intensify the placebo effect that Ben has noted.
But then again, how will we put "voicing grooves" in the bell, if it's metal?
And what happens if we apply the mystical, legendary "Hamilton plating" to the keywork?
It's amazing that the old dudes like Marcellus and so forth were able to sound so good on their plain old clarinets, isn't it?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2011-10-04 02:51
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> I'd suggest we put wooden tenon and bell rings on our metal
> clarinets. That should intensify the placebo effect that Ben
> has noted.
>
> But then again, how will we put "voicing grooves" in the bell,
> if it's metal?
>
> And what happens if we apply the mystical, legendary "Hamilton
> plating" to the keywork?
>
> It's amazing that the old dudes like Marcellus and so forth
> were able to sound so good on their plain old clarinets, isn't
> it?
Marcellus went through hell and high water having his equipment modified. Sure he sounded consistently fantastic no matter what he used during his career but I bet he worked harder at times than others to achieve his way depending on what he was using.
Someone like Ricardo Morales could play a standard clarinet and still sound like himself. I bet it is easier for him to achieve the same ideal on his current set up though or else he wouldn't be using it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-04 10:40
The reason why I brought tenon corks into this is because in a lot of cases, they're the only connection between the socket and tenon (or they're what separates the socket from the tenon) instead of full contact between the socket and the entire length of the tenon, so any claims of transmitting vibrations throughout the entire instrument through the wood is invalid.
While different shaped barrel bores may have the most impact, the lack of socket rings are hardly anything to make a song and dance about and if anything, the lack of them is only increasing the risk of the sockets splitting due to the outward pressure from the tenon corks when they're in place. In my opinion, they're an accident waiting to happen.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-10-04 14:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-04 15:39
Firstly I want to say that I started as a BIG skeptic of the "custom barrel" phenomenon (and I still am only grudgingly a convert). Thanks to Dr.Alan Segal I am the proud owner of a ringless (fatboy) for my Yamaha CSG-H clarinets. It is not a HUGE difference, but one that is enticing and habit forming. I cannot say that I would be entirely happy if I had to play the stock Yamaha barrel again.
That said, you must realize that the barrel for the CSG is a full 10 cm SHORTER than what most of you use. So I ask, how could such a small length of bore make the difference of sound by itself?
I have in fact tried a couple Backuns with an R13 Greenline and found the same sound characteristic - though it is not worth the investment for me since the Greenline is only an alternate horn.
Finally I would submit the Rossi clarinet as the BEST example of what I am talking about here. The Rossis achieve a special sort of resonance rather unparalled in modern clarinets and I firmly believe this is a result of the lack of a center juncture in ADDITION to the all wooden barrel and bell. We are stuck with having to adjust the pitch of course so cork is a must.
Now what if a much lighter key material were possible................?
..............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-04 18:46
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Firstly I want to say that I started as a BIG skeptic of the
> "custom barrel" phenomenon (and I still am only grudgingly a
> convert). Thanks to Dr.Alan Segal I am the proud owner of a
> ringless (fatboy) for my Yamaha CSG-H clarinets. It is not a
> HUGE difference, but one that is enticing and habit forming. I
> cannot say that I would be entirely happy if I had to play the
> stock Yamaha barrel again.
>
>
The problem with this argument is that it isn't known how much of the difference in the sound characteristics is caused by the internal geometry of the custom barrel and how much is caused by the external configuration of the barrel. Personally I suspect that if you bought a conventional barrel and a ringless barrel from the same maker that had their bores fashioned the same way they would likely sound almost identical.
I suspect the primary reason why most custom barrel use a ringless design is that it is more convenient to make them that way. Using ringed barrel design would require having additional equipment in the shop and would take more steps to manufacture.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-04 19:54
Yes I meant 10mm - I use a 54mm barrel. Thanks for pointing that out.
As for the bore argument. As I said, I picked up the SAME phenomenon on two Backuns (actually wooden ringed barrels) on an R13. What I am experiencing is a sound with more vibrations to it, a "woodier" sound, slightly more vibrant and yet more subdued..........really hard to describe if you haven't tried them. Again this is not a huge difference. It won't make you Ricardo Morales. But it is something that once you live with it for a few weeks, you tend not to want to go back.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-10-04 23:26
If it makes it easier to play for YOU, then it's worth it. Placebo effect included. I recall a thread about the pianist Glenn Gould, who used the same adjustable chair from when he was given it at a young age till he died. The SAME chair.
Look at all the rituals of professional athletes before they come up to bat, or before a big play, etc. etc. I understand that we want to know if it SCIENTIFICALLY is better to not have rings or not, but really just try the barrel and if you like it, you like it.
Manufacturers ALWAYS tout their stuff as the best, darkest, most vibrant, blah blah blah. Try it. Even if you FEEL it's easier to play, that will make you more relaxed and therefore you WILL play better. I've found MANY combinations that work for me, and many of them work very well for me with very small differences between them.
But I do have a few "constants" that I am really reluctant to change because I believe they are the BEST, even if it's just me that thinks so!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: dtiegs
Date: 2011-10-06 22:25
If... do keep in mind that I am a student, and have e no experience in making a clarinet nor playing it well, it's just a suggestion... Why won't they just make the clarinet one piece so there's no argument? That way the wood may vibrate without the cork and the metal tenons to disrupt it....
Are unstained wood of better quality than stained?... Why do we stain the wood? Is there a difference in sound between stained clarinets and unstained clarinets?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-06 22:48
dtiegs wrote:
> If... do keep in mind that I am a student, and have e no
> experience in making a clarinet nor playing it well, it's just
> a suggestion... Why won't they just make the clarinet one piece
> so there's no argument? That way the wood may vibrate without
> the cork and the metal tenons to disrupt it....
>
> Are unstained wood of better quality than stained?... Why do we
> stain the wood? Is there a difference in sound between stained
> clarinets and unstained clarinets?
Some early clarinets were made in one piece and I've seen examples clarinets made that way up until the late 1800's. There are a few reasons why this is no longer done. The primary one is tuning. Having adjustable joints for the barrel, upper and lower joint, and bell allows the player to make small adjustment to correct pitch. Without those adjustable joints all pitch corrections would need to be made with the embrouchure, which would be both difficult and tiring. The second reason is manufacturability. It is much more difficult to accurately machine a longer clarinet joint than it is to machine a short one.
As for wood stain, it is difficult to find grenadilla wood that is uniform in color. The wood is dyed for aesthetic reasons only. This will have no affect on the sound since the amount of dye absorbed by the wood is miniscule, but I'm sure there will be some people out there who will claim that it makes a huge difference.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-07 11:27
A couple more reasons why clarinets aren't normally made in one piece (or with one-piece bodies) is getting a long enough billet of grenadilla without flaws and also if it splits, then the whole joint may need to be replaced instead of only the top joint.
If you look at a low C bass or basset horn lower joint, then you'll most likely notice some areas that have been filled due to worm holes (caused by beetle larvae), patches of decay or knots - most makers will aim to put toneholes through areas such as these (to effectively remove them) but some can't be dealt with so easily so will usually need filling in with superglue and wood dust. Leblanc made one-piece body basset clarinets (an A clarinet extended downwards to low C) which is a pretty lengthy piece of grenadilla to run a pilot drill through and keeping it on centre.
There are some companies still making one-piece bodied clarinets (eg. Rossi) but most companies make two-piece bodies from shorter billets which are either matched for colour and grain pattern or stained to look uniform (as Buffet do).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-10-07 15:21
Well, here's an experiment for anyone brave enough to try it. This winter when your wood dries out and all your rings fall off, record yourself both with and without the rings. Use the most sophisticated equipment you can find, e.g., software that maps your overtones. Report back on whether there is any measurable difference.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-10-07 15:57
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> Well, here's an experiment for anyone brave enough to try it.
> This winter when your wood dries out and all your rings fall
> off, record yourself both with and without the rings. Use the
> most sophisticated equipment you can find, e.g., software that
> maps your overtones. Report back on whether there is any
> measurable difference.
I sure hope there is ... that bore just changed
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-07 16:03
A brief safety warning just in case anyone takes the last reply too seriously:
If your socket rings are loose, then have them refitted at the earlist opportunity and never assemble your clarinet while they remain loose or have been removed as the sockets can split.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-10-07 17:56
"that bore just changed."
I don't see how the bore would change the way I described the experiment because both trials occur at the same time -- after the clarinet has dried out. Admittedly, however, the rings might be loose.
"If your socket rings are loose, then have them refitted at the earlist opportunity and never assemble your clarinet while they remain loose or have been removed as the sockets can split."
I agree with what Chris says. That's why I proposed the test for "anyone brave enough to try it." Assembling the clarinet without the rings certainly subjects one to a risk that the sockets will crack -- but it is a risk, not a certainty.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2011-10-07 22:06
I lost the ring to my bell on my A clarinet about two years ago and have been playing it as is. There hasn't been any damage to the tenon.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2011-10-09 14:49
I have a metal 1930 Selmer full-Boehm Bb, and friends who have wooden French Selmers have played mine and assured me that it's fully the equal of theirs.
Klarnetisto
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
