 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-10 03:58
I just got a dual and have been experimenting with it. What I've found through measuring my model reeds and the measuring the reeds that come off the dual is that the thing is actually very accurate....except for at the tip of the reed.
No matter how thin I sand the tip of my model reed the result is always around 0.20-0.22mm, much too thick.
What are some ways to go about making a model that yields nice tips?
Thanks,
Chris
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2007-03-10 04:48
cpark,
put 1 or more layer of laminating paper, or pieces of clear tape underneath the blank. This will slightly raise the blank closer to the sandpaper, and should get the tip thinner.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-03-10 07:17
two other solutions....
- you could finish off the tips by hand
- you can move the "new" reed forward, just over the line (or at least, slightly forward from where the model reed is) and make a few final passes.
I have heard of people using a special model reed with ideal tip measurements and swapping to this model when finishing the tip. I have personally never done this.
hope that this was helpful
donald
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-10 14:53
Thanks for the ideas. I will try the one with the tape under the model first.
Ideally I want a solution that will give me a reed that plays well right off the dual that need minimal hand finishing if any. I know that this is possible because I've seen someone do it before...I just need to get the model right.
Please keep the ideas coming.
Best,
Chris
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Author: doublej
Date: 2007-03-10 15:31
I move the blank to the left side of the black mark on the table so that there is a maybe an extra mm at the tip. This will actuallu give me a marred tip. Then you just learn how much is extra and when you clip the tip the bad part is removed. Also, don't forget to rock the dual back and forth at the tip because this helps form the proper measurements.
Good luck!
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2007-03-10 17:17
If you can make your model reed compensate for your machine’s individual characteristics, great but .20mm is too much of a differential to work with. There just isn’t enough material on a reed’s tip to compensate…
The tip is where everything begins. It is crucial that your ‘dual create accurate tips that are balanced and ready to play. That is the point of the machine…to accurately create copies of your model reed quickly and easily. I have come to accept the fact that no two ‘duals are the same (my model reed that creates good results on my machine may not work well on another machine) but once you have made a good model for your machine, you should be able to produce beautiful balanced reeds that have good tips.
With experience, good balanced reeds should be an easy thing to achieve. If this is not possible (absent much handwork) then your machine may be out of adjustment.
Perhaps you could send it back to George and have him look it over.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-10 17:34
Brad,
Thanks. The machine doesn't add .20 to every tip, what I meant was, the tips always come out at about .20 or .25 no matter how thin the model is.
I took rod rubber's advice and put tape under my model. This added about 0.05mm in thickness. To compensate for this I've turned the dial on the machine to a softer setting. I'm starting to get better results now. The tip is more proportional to the rest of the reed and measurements are matching the model better.
How much tweaking did you do to your model to get a good result? And what process did you go through? What are your thoughts on the tape method?
Thanks,
Chris
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2007-03-10 18:44
I did a lot of tweaking to find a good model reed. Here are some suggestions on how to calibrate your model reed with your ‘dual’s flaws.
1. Measure your existing model reed
2. Make a bunch of reeds and measure them all. Determine the average measurements and compare them to your model.
3. Determine exactly where the differences are and adjust your model reed accordingly.
I have used tape to adjust the shape of my model reeds and have had moderate success. I feel that the ‘dual should be set up as accurately as possible without tape or shims. That will give you a good neutral position from which model reed modifications with tape or epoxy or any other type of building material can be experimented with.
Additionally I encourage the use of many different models in your arsenal to compensate for the many different types of cane you will encounter over the years. I do have one main model that I use most of the time but when a reed seems a little too hard at the back or soft at the tip I have several hybrid models designed to work specific areas of the reed. This allows for the necessary flexibility to make good reeds from different batches of cane.
The great thing about the ‘dual is that it provides a wonderful learning experience. With time one will have a model reed for any occasion. The machine will give one the confidence to find a good reed under any condition in just minutes.
When the machine is properly working and ones technique properly honed, good reeds are part of life. No worries…
It was one of the best investments my parents ever made for me. I was 19 and they bought me a ‘dual for Christmas. 20 years later I still use it all the time.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-11 04:57
Brad,
You mentioned using epoxy. What do you use exactly?
My reeds are coming out a tiny bit thin on the lower right side and also the right side of the tip is always softer.
Something I could paint on to build up the thickness in very very thin coats would be ideal.
Thanks,
Chris
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2007-03-11 14:02
Nail polish may work, but I actually don't use anything to build up my model reeds because my machine is well calibrated. In the past I have used layers of tape or epoxy to thicken my models in places I felt needed material. This was an attempt to change the profile of my models. It was not however an attempt to compensate for my machine's attitude. It worked well but I was always a bit worried that the filler would come off. When I used tape on the model, it worked but the reeds I made had a shape that kind of traced the shape of the tape in an undesirable whay, so I gave up with it.
Perhaps you could do as Don recommends and bias your model to the soft side. You can place your model anywhere out of center if that helps create a better reed, but in the end it is best to have a machine that cuts evenly.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-13 12:02
Thanks again Brad,
Ok, so after further experimentation I think my dual is actually pretty darn accurate. I think my thick tips were the result of user error...not holding the model firmly to the guide plate as I worked.
Though now I'm getting a different problem and I have a theory on why it's happening.
The right and left rails near the tip sometimes come out extremely thin. I think this is becuase the model reed is clipped already...hence, no material on the corners and is bringing down those sides more than it should.
Does one need a square tipped reed for the best results?
Thanks,
Chris
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-03-13 20:00
Brad gives excellent advice per usual (and he is much more experienced with the 'Duall than i am)
re my advice to adjust "bias" in terms of positioning of the model reed vrs blank, i meant this only by a very small amount, certainly less than 1mm
donald
ps- make sure the curve on your reed clipper matches that of the blank...
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Author: doublej
Date: 2007-03-14 07:31
"Does one need a square tipped reed for the best results?"
Not necessarily I use an old morre reed as my model and thus it shaped, if you will, at the tip. I run my reeds unclipped at the tip and clip the tip after I have given them shape that way I can play with them a little.
As Mr. Behn has suggested run a few reeds and see if they are coming out the same specs as you model. I have to admit that my model when i try and play it is awful but it is balanced really well and produces good reeds.
It took me a while to produce a reed that works just right for me, or so I like to think it works. Just a side I always just watch the master side reed and I ignore the left side that way I can follow the specific pattern that i have for making the reed.
Best of luck,
jeff
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-14 16:46
Thanks for the advice Jeff.
I've discovered a few things.
First I've been getting super thin tip rails. I've solved this by rotating the guide less as I get to the tip.
Also I've been getting thick tips. I've solved this by pressing harder just right when I get to the tip area. It is possible to overdo this a ruin the tip but it seems to be the best solution I've found. I usual take the reed off, measure it and redo the tip if need be.
Dragging the guide striaght at different angles seems to work better than wiggling it too much as you pull.
I didn't think technique would matter too much with the dual but it seems it does.
any thought on these observations?
Best,
Chris
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-03-15 12:13
can anyone tell me a bit of this device?
i have never heard of it. what exactly does it do?
where to buy? and how much?
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Author: doublej
Date: 2007-03-15 14:27
Chris ,
That sounds good what you are doing. There is some experimentation involved. I don't know if you have ever seen one but the dual is like the old key copying machines. If you are familiar with them you know that when someone made a key on there it always did not turn out to work just right. then if you got an old timer that really knew how to use the machine the key would be perfect. I think that the same applies with the dual. It simply is not a mindless operation that produces reeds perfectly. Just keep at it and you will find out what works for you.
Also, you may want to set the machine to two marks harder and sand the entire reed then change the sand paper and move the gauge to the zero tolerance. This often gives good results as the sand paper grit will not be worn down for the final surfacing. I can't remember if that was in the instructions with the machine or not but it works well.
jeff
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-15 14:45
Yes, I have found that changing the sandpaper for every reed works the best.
I'll do reed, change the paper and go over it again. I don't adjust the settings and it barely takes anything off, but it's a more accurate result esp. at the tips which is crucial.
I've just been using a good vandoren as a model so far...haven't tweaked it a bit and I'm starting to get better results from it as I'm learning more about my dual.
I'm beggining to think that making the model is not a mystical as some people make it out to be. I'm getting fairly balanced and well proportioned reeds from my undoctored V12. I imagine with the right tweaks it would be even better but I'm getting reeds that play right off the dual now...some I would not hesitate to use in a rehearsal and might consider a few for a concert.
Thanks all for the advice.
Chris
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