 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-01-10 11:50
Dear Pedagogues,
I was wondering what you folks make of the following concept:
Upon wondering into a finger twisting passage one can stop, play the passage over VERY SLOWLY while exaggerating putting the fingers down (almost a percussive feel) and bringing them up at an exaggerated height in a "jerky" manner. Do this a few times; shake it out and try the passage again at a normal pace in a normal manner.
This is supposed to reinforce the "muscle memory" or "spinal cord" memory rather than address the conscious part of the brain.
Does this sound valid to any of you? Do any of you utilize this methodology in your ciriculum?
...................Confused,
.........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-01-10 12:52
Paul,
"while exaggerating putting the fingers down (almost a percussive feel) and bringing them up at an exaggerated height in a "jerky" manner." is not the correct way to practice. Slow yes; in a manner different from how you normally play is not the correct way to practice.
One of my teachers was a student on Bonade and we always practiced slowly and carefully. When one works on one's golf swing, exaggeration is not the way to go. You will be doing/practicing something incorrectly which is not a good technique.
HRL
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2006-01-10 12:58
I use PART of that method in my own practice and teaching - - I only use the SLOW part of it; not the percussive or jerky part.
It is important to me to be as smooth and even as possible, and I think it is possible to practice that method slowly and then again slowly increase the speed while continuing the smooth and even feeling.
It is only the slow part that is being exaggerated and then, hopefully, the smoothness and evenness will continue as I increase the speed.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-01-10 15:21
I think I use it only once or twice for only particularly tricky passages. It does seem (in my experience) to help my fingers memorize the particular twists easier. I do, of course, practice it slowly IN ADDITION to this in order to smooth out the transitions...
Katrina
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-01-10 19:41
Thanks for all the input. Slow but smooth it is.
.........less confused than before,
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-01-10 20:37
I've been taught to do staccato with preplaced fingerings to help that sort of this.
Breath is constant, stop note with tongue, place finger for next note, air release w/tongue. Playing slowing, fingers smooth and in rhythm.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-10 21:59
Paul Aviles asked about the following technique:
>>...play the passage over VERY SLOWLY while exaggerating putting the fingers down (almost a percussive feel) and bringing them up at an exaggerated height in a "jerky" manner. Do this a few times; shake it out and try the passage again at a normal pace in a normal manner.>>
Hank Lehrer then wrote:
>> ...[playing] "while exaggerating putting the fingers down (almost a percussive feel) and bringing them up at an exaggerated height in a "jerky" manner." is not the correct way to practice. Slow yes; in a manner different from how you normally play is not the correct way to practice.>>
Well, I'm not a complete slouch on the clarinet, and I very often deliberately choose a way to practice that is different from the way I normally play. Indeed, I'd say that in general, I find any different way of playing a passage, consciously chosen, is helpful. Even playing deliberately what you don't want (like 'playing the grunt' that I spoke of in another thread) can help. I've done things not unlike what is described, and I'll continue to do so in the future.
If someone always practiced in a particular way, like the way described above, then it might be a different matter. The crucial point is whether or not they are aware that they are doing it, and whether they have chosen it.
With regard to the other part of Paul's question, I don't know anything about whether the proposed theory of 'spinal cord memory' has any basis in fact.
Brenda Siewert then wrote:
>> I agree that to practice with jerky motion will encourage jerky motion.>>
This is complete nonsense. (As well say, to practice slowly will encourage playing slowly.) Several well-attested study methods apply jerky rhythms, and there is no suggestion that they do anything but enhance fluidity when the artifice is abandoned.
So, what are you on about, the pair of you? I'm tempted to think you should be ashamed of yourselves. What in depth investigation of such techniques have you done, that you're so sure it's what you presume to call, 'not correct'?
Paul then wrote:
>> Thanks for all the input. Slow but smooth it is.
.........less confused than before...>>
Listen, Paul. Practicing is about trying different ways to approach technical difficulties you experience. Don't let anyone tell you that there's a right way to do it. Try out whatever occurs to you, and see. If it doesn't help, then obviously try something else; but don't be frightened of damaging yourself by such a minor experiment.
Tony
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-01-10 23:33
Hi Tony,
Interesting points you have made. However, I have many other things to be more ashamed of other than the comment I made on practice.
I was never taught to practice in any way other than slowly and carefully as I cited above and I have always taught my students in the same manner. Perhaps you might cite an "in depth investigation" that shows that this method is not correct.
However, on balance, I would suggest that there are probably more "slow and careful" practice teachers than any other kind (using street-sense as my only basis). I doubt if there has been or ever will be such an " in depth investigation" to ferret out the truth on this topic. While I have conducted a great deal of funded research in other areas, I believe that it would be difficult to convince any agency that this is a worthy topic and that a null or research hypothesis could be clearly stated and then tested inferentially or descriptively. But then...
HRL
PS Tony, do you play golf? See my golf swing analogy, please.
Post Edited (2006-01-11 01:38)
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-01-11 00:35
I would be interested if I could be directed to any such studies. I personally have found that I must do occasional "wind sprints" to get any kind of speed. That playing rapidly feels fundamentally different than playing slowly. Body learning is not my strongest modality on the other hand (sic.)
I've learned the 'anticpated stacatto' as a practice method as well as changing the rhythm method for difficult passages, but I am not aware of any studies to see if either is in fact extremely effective. I'd love to look at such a study!
Post Edited (2006-01-11 00:37)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-11 07:44
Hank wrote:
>> Perhaps you might cite an "in depth investigation" that shows that this method is not correct.>>
There is no question that practicing slowly and carefully will help your playing. What I question is rather your assertion that other methods -- methods that I and others find useful -- are counterproductive. This is presumptuous and thoughtless of you.
>> However, on balance, I would suggest that there are probably more "slow and careful" practice teachers than any other kind (using street-sense as my only basis).>>
It astounds me that there may be teachers who limit the exploratory possibilities of their students by telling them exactly how they should practice, and how they should not practice.
I tell my students to practice slowly and carefully, of course. ("Remember that somewhere in the world Eddie Daniels is practicing even slower!") But fundamentally I encourage them to listen for and investigate the technical difficulties that they encounter. There are many ways to do this.
Anyhow it's bad enough having technique police here -- you 'should' play double lip, and so on. Practice police? Enough already.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Tony
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-01-11 13:10
I'm with Tony (or should I say "Mr Pay"? I'm nowhere near his level....) I just wasn't able to articulate earlier the same ideas he has just ever-so-eloquently pointed out.
Katrina
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-11 14:58
I think I'd try anything once to crack the current fingerbuster I'm stuck on!
I do think there's something in being 'conscious' of your playing (when you're practicing). Are you fudging the piece, or do you really know what you're doing? I can see how playing really slowly could expose that. Maybe being really positive with the finger actions could have a similar effect.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-11 15:06
Of course, there's always this old chestnut...
(Are we allowed viola player jokes on this site? If not, please pull this post! :-D )
*
Ahem...
*
There's a viola player lying face down on a zebra crossing, holding up traffic, bashing his hands up and down on the road.
Policeman comes along, says, 'What do you think you're doing?'
Viola player says, 'Learning to play the piano.'
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-01-11 15:27
Tony Pay,
Being "not a complete slouch on the clarinet" is not a licence to be rude, to insult people, or to denigrate their opinions. Being abrasive is not helpful and you are the one who should be ashamed - for your bad manners.
It is intuitively obvious that the same learning techniques will not be effective for all students.
Paul Aviles,
Re "spinal cord memory", attempts to establish even very simple conditioned reflexes in "spinal" dogs and cats have shown that no significant learning takes place in them [see Pavlov (1927) and Kellogg, Deese, Pronko, and Feinberg (1947)]; i.e., you need a brain to learn.
Hans
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Author: frank
Date: 2006-01-11 16:27
I agree with Tony's approach in that whatever is available... learn it! Dogma in the music world sadly exists. A bit of dogma can be good though... as long as the technique is working for you. I think it's a good idea to know every technique possible. To know how to produce a dark and bright sound, to play softly and loudly, to use fast and slow fingers, etc. Knowing extremes will allow you to pick what works best and find a middle ground. In my opinion, the only way to truly understand something is by actually doing it. Neidich uses the fast practice technique. Eddie Daniels is the slow practice master. They both have gobs of technique. The end result is what one should strive for... making music.
I ONLY agree with Tony's approach about playing. The other stuff is optional. Why so surley, T? I love the passion though. 
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-01-12 11:58
I have a response to the Kellog, Deese, Pronko, Feinberg studies......
A significant paper was just published that shows plants produce significant amount of methane in aerobic conditions which may in fact account for a large percentage of the earth's atmospheric methane.
Also, gamma bursters have been studied of late that point to the possibility that the acceleration of the universe's expansion may not have been constant over time.
Clarinet playing, much like life, is a constant learning process.
....................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2006-01-12 12:21)
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Author: cpark
Date: 2006-01-12 21:55
I agree with tony. Practicing something 'differently' on purpose will not promote any bad habits.
It is often very very helpful to practice a 16th note passage with the emphasis on the completely wrong beat(shift the first note over, one sixteeth note). or play it as triplets. Although this is not how you perform the music, when you return to the 'correct' way you may find it much easier.
If you think about it, slow practice is just another way of doing that. You don't perform it that slowly, but of course it's helpful to practice it that way.
Chris
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-12 22:37
frank wrote:
>> I ONLY agree with Tony's approach about playing. The other stuff is optional. Why so surley, T?>>
Yes, I'm a bad and awful person, aren't I? I've been told that before, but not half as often as I've suspected it about myself, funnily enough.
I'm sure I do a great deal of damage in the world, and particularly on this Board, being less than respectful towards people who unreasonably promote the dismissal of possibly helpful ideas. How hateful of me.
After taking me to task for my 'shameful' bad manners, he said:
>> It is intuitively obvious that the same learning techniques will not be effective for all students.>>
...meaning, I suppose, that his ideas -- though they are by no means his, and are accepted by almost everyone, me included -- are not the only ones in town.
Funny how he said previously,
>> "while exaggerating putting the fingers down (almost a percussive feel) and bringing them up at an exaggerated height in a "jerky" manner." is not the correct way to practice. Slow yes; in a manner different from how you normally play is not the correct way to practice.
One of my teachers was a student on Bonade and we always practiced slowly and carefully. When one works on one's golf swing, exaggeration is not the way to go. You will be doing/practicing something incorrectly which is not a good technique.>>
So I seem to have made some progress in the matter, however awful I am.
Tony
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-01-12 23:39
Tony,
I believe that you have confused my posts with those of two other people named Frank and Hans. My name is Hank but you have attributed what I have posted to others and their comments to me.
I have made no - nor would I make - comments about you being abrasive or having bad manners.
HRL
Post Edited (2006-01-13 00:54)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-13 09:04
I'm very sorry, Hank. Complete carelessness on my part. I beg your pardon.
Tony
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Author: Mofiddler
Date: 2006-01-14 03:48
Funny, I had the same thought spontaneously a few days ago -- ie that 'jerking' the fingers would help reinforce the muscle memory. Personally, I find clarinet playing a little confusing after playing the violin/viola; for instance the G is an open note on the clarinet but a beginning violinist thinks it means having fingers down, and same when a violinist has to re-think that going down the clarinet typically means going lower whereas on the violin it means going higher. So, for me, a means of overcoming former muscle memory are especially welcome.
My violin teacher used to recommend that I practice hard parts with many different rythyms and many different bowings and also with variations of accents interspersed. For example a tricky triplet passage, one could practice it as if it were pairs of dotted sixteenths and vice versa. One could try it accenting the 2nd subbeat and then again accenting the 3rd subbeat, etc. It one does it intentionally and systematically and doesn't overdo it and does several different varieties I think there are no ill effects and it is extremely helpful.
Also, the metronome helps. Love my old Franz metronome, though I haven't even tried it with the clarinet yet. For some reason it would seem more intrusive at this point (I'm only a month or two into the clarinet); I'm still spending a lot of attention to how my notes sound and the beat would get in the way? Maybe I'm just afraid at this point it will tell me how out of rhythym I am
Maureen
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