 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-09-03 21:20
In my opinion, the discussion of ligatures consumes a disproportionate amount of space relative to positive changes that the right ligature can have on performance.
Before anyone breathes fire down my neck for making this statement I wish to make the following observations:
* By no means am I saying all ligatures are alike. First, there's crap and non-crap, crap being defined as a device that mechanically fails to reliable secure the reed with relative ease of application and removal.
* Then, within the realm of non-crap there are certainly subtleties based on materials, craftsmanship, method of attachment, type of reed being played, and a dozen other attributes that maybe if I were a better player, that only then would I have the refinement to appreciate.
* People should absolutely feel free to discuss and use whatever device they like to affix their reed. That is their right and not my business to challenge.
The only reason for my post is the curiosity that this topic has for me on a psychological level and what I see as the disproportionate discussion of same relative to its impact.
FWIW I posed this question, whose wording is both my own and imperfect, to two AI engines and linked their response. I concede that the very nature of the way I posed my question can present bias in the answer.
https://iask.ai/q/clarinet-ligature-impact-discussion-e8da1s0
https://chatgpt.com/ "Why does something that has as little effect on clarinet play like the ligature choice consume so much of a player's discussion relative to the small impact it has on play?"
I admit that one of my favorite explanations from the engines above was
"...the ligature is one of the few components of the clarinet setup that is relatively inexpensive and easily interchangeable, allowing for frequent experimentation without significant financial commitment. "
Thoughts?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-09-03 22:26
I agree that the phrasing can shape the response you will get. It is much like the old joke of asking someone "do you still beat your wife?" The premise already makes certain assumptions.
I have played around with more than my share of ligatures over the years, in part because I find it fascinating. Ligatures are by no means the most important part of the equation. In many cases the difference between ligatures may not be anything that most listeners will hear. It is often very subtle.
In my experience, the ligature can affect the response and the feel by the player. There is also a slight difference in the harmonics that one might hear from the set up and reed. Again, not sure that it can be heard by many listeners, BUT it may affect how the player and the comfort might be detected by the listener.
Thinking of using the ligature as a way to fine tune the mouthpiece-reed-ligature equation is valuable. Some ligatures naturally seem to dampen response which may be great for a brighter or more responsive mouthpiece. Similarly, some ligatures are very responsive and lively, which may help a more covered type of mouthpiece.
These days there are a crazy number of ligatures on the market at all price points and made of endless materials. It is best not to get too crazy or spend too much given the small effect, but it is worth exploring.
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Author: hans
Date: 2025-09-04 00:58
I liked AI's comment: "The pursuit of marginal gains is a common phenomenon in highly refined technical fields, where even small advantages can be sought after". That would seem to justify experimentation.
Maybe we could also ask AI what the optimum torque should be for consistency in tightening our ligature screw(s)? My dentist has a tiny torque wrench for installing implants; maybe there is a business opportunity for its manufacturer to market it to clarinet players....
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2025-09-04 05:28
Gains could be very well be marginal in the end result - i.e. listener's ears.
The end result is not only what matters. In order to get to the end result, there are the investments of cost, time, energy (physical, mental, emotional) and those investments needs to be managed like any other investment.
If someone feels they get a better response or that there is some sort of an ergonomic advantage, then those are not objective matters - rather highly subjective and as such, if it makes someone feel happy/happier -then there is little wrong with it.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-09-04 05:54
SecondTry,
When you wrote: "In my opinion, the discussion of ligatures consumes a disproportionate amount of space relative to positive changes that the right ligature can have on performance", with all due respect to you, I couldn't disagree with you more. Actually, I wish we had more ligature discussions.
The keyword in your opinion that caught my eye was "performance."
So, I did what I usually do and that is I used my personal search engine and asked "Can a particular clarinet ligature make a significant difference in performance?" and I found an old BB thread from 2016 entitled "Do ligatures really matter at all?"
Wow...what an education it was for me to read through that entire thread!
Here it is: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=440263&t=440263
The opinions by Ken Shaw (RIP), David Spiegelthal and especially Mojo were very enlightening to me.
I hope that some of you will read this thread.
I truly believe you won't be disappointed.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-09-04 06:11
Dan Shusta wrote:
> SecondTry,
>
> When you wrote: "In my opinion, the discussion of ligatures
> consumes a disproportionate amount of space relative to
> positive changes that the right ligature can have on
> performance", with all due respect to you, I couldn't disagree
> with you more. Actually, I wish we had more ligature
> discussions.
I'm not sure if you feel that discussion of ligatures fails to be disproportional to their importance, or phrased slightly differently, ligature discussion is proportional or under-discussed for their importance, or maybe and simply, that you wished we talked about ligatures more.
Regardless of which one or more of these, or yet some other way of describing it is your cup of tea, it's all good by me.
I hold the belief that their relative importance is small compared to how much we talk about them, particularly compared to other factors that matter more or no less, not that they don't matter.
But I have no problem with their discussion. Everyone likes to talk about gear regardless of whether it's, depending on forum, clarinets or car polish...so the discussion..."I get it."
>
> The keyword in your opinion that caught my eye was
> "performance."
>
> So, I did what I usually do and that is I used my personal
> search engine and asked "Can a particular clarinet ligature
> make a significant difference in performance?" and I found an
> old BB thread from 2016 entitled "Do ligatures really matter at
> all?"
>
> Wow...what an education it was for me to read through that
> entire thread!
>
Thanks for the reference. I completely get that if a ligature gives the player more of what their looking for, even it its in their head, then even that's enough, even if no difference is sound is detected by the audience.
And of course, whether ligatures matter at all is a very different question from whether they are discussed in proportion to their importance (to the player.)
By way of a somewhat mediocre analogy, earthquakes and the death they cause (ligatures) certainly matter, but if we are talking about them so much more than say heart disease (some other aspect of clarinet play that has more bearing on ability than ligatures,) which takes far more lives than earthquakes, are we spending too much time worrying about the ground shaking versus our diet, exercise, and overall health?
Again, talk reed straps to your heart's content. I'm simply being the arm chair observer of behavior here intrigued by how much air time the topic seems to get over other factors that may matter more and get talked about less...or not.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-09-04 16:30
Torque is a valid discussion. For Legere reeds it is a bit easier to get this right by testing how easily the reed can be nudged to and fro. For me it is best when the reed can be moved side to side but with some healthy resistance. If one experiments with the results (sound, response), then you can clearly define a result based measure of the "right torque for you."
One other thing that is becoming more obvious as the years go by is that we adjust our playing parameters to achieve the sound ideal as we perceive it. The key factors involved are how much embouchure "pressure" one exerts vs. the amount of air you use per each particular note, in its specific register, at a given dynamic. So we all have unique parameters that are then affected in unique ways by the introduction of a new piece of gear. THIS is why recommending a specific piece of gear for a certain result is a lost cause. We all (unfortunately for those looking for certainty) must find our own solutions. But on the bright side, it does help to know that there are those of us finding certain results with certain gear and thus we can then be hopeful of finding our own revelations (not a BG reference). And OF COURSE, if you have found contentment with all your your current gear and technique......LET IT RIDE !!!!!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-09-04 20:43
Paul,
Yes, I've done the "nudging test" before with Legeres, however, with the Luyben dual screw ligature, for me it's a guessing game as to how to balance the tension of the screws evenly.
Although tightening one screw more than the other may yield a better result for a particular player, to me...that's a lot of extra work.
I much prefer a single screw and allow the ligature tension to "mold itself" evenly across the reed. For me, a single screw is a whole lot easier to use than going "back and forth" several times to achieve a balanced tension.
Thoughts?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-09-04 21:03
well.............
Not here per se, but I've seen an awful lot of grousing over the convenience or lack there of one ligature's ease of use over another. I have, unfortunately, fallen victim to those whispers in the back of my mind in many a trial period for a ligature.
so...........
Even if you ARE in a full time orchestra pulling "A" clarinet duty 30% of the time, it is easy enough to switch at the barrel. Also, with Legere, once the reed is on....it's ON, so you don't need to be taking it off or fiddling with it for any reason whatsoever. Therefore taking some time to put a Legere on CORRECTLY should be no problem as far taking time away from playing, or making a critical entrance.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-09-04 21:36
Paul,
I was referring to the initial installation only.
So, I'll restate it here: During the initial installation of a Legere reed onto a mouthpiece, I believe the whole process is far easier with a single screw, non plastic, ligature than a dual screw Luyben.
I've had a Legere reed "slip around" while trying to adjust my Luyben ligature.
Very frustrating...
Just my opinion.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-09-04 21:40
Do you know what other somewhat tangential thing interests me: the proliferation of variety in the ligature space in the last 50 years.
When I stared playing (around the time indoor plumbing was coming into fashion ) ligatures basically fell into the two categories I mentioned of crap or not crap.
Now, I'm not saying that it's all marketing and no innovation today, but clearly its not all innovation: some is more hype that substance.
Of course in 50 years (I think I'm saying tongue-in-cheek, but I'm not quite sure) artificial intelligence will find a way to put us all on the sidelines, but if it doesn't, I imagine discussions about ligatures making today's banter seem as antiquated as why Drucker used the ligature he did (the running joke, because it came with the clarinet.)
Perhaps some teacher will scream at their pupil: "how many times do I have to tell you to use the included laser level that came with your ligature?"
Or to hans' point: "how could you so blindly torque your ligature's screws without the included mini torque wrench."
Or "well of course your bluetooth Legere isn't playing optimally. Did you download the app that measures the pressure it's being clamped with?"
Tech being applied to what were once simply mechanical devices...reminds me this of this comedy bit....
https://youtu.be/ldswXPRjyMg?si=xb5hnoTaJshkhi9D&t=57
(Please do not let this comic levity detract from serious discussion. I seriously and humbly do not mean to poo poo marginal differences, real or perceived in play, that my limitations as a player won't likely have me experience.)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-09-04 22:39
As I've told my kids a long time ago, "High technology will become your worst enemy".
I think I'm beginning to see it becoming true today...
Remember: "An app(le) a day keeps the doctor away."
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-09-04 23:01
I often see those discussions about the added hassle of 2 screws. I have usually found that once a ligature is “used to” the mouthpiece, unless I switch to a thicker or thinner blank reed, it barely takes any adjustment to put a reed on. When i am removing a reed i just turn one or two times, enough so that it is easy to pull the reed and ligature off. Then in only takes one or two turns of each to tighten the new reed in place. I suppose that this adds a few seconds, but I generally like two screw ligatures better. They often feel a bit more secure to me and it is easy to adjust the tension slightly differently if i choose.
Then again, i like some “no screw” ligatures
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-09-04 23:29
You'd think with my opinion of the frequency of their discussion relative to what I see as their importance that I might use some "my father's Oldsmobile" ligature.
I don't. I use a Vandoren M/O. But before being judged, and to Ed's point above, I don't feel that this device, for me, has some secret sauce in the way it allows reeds to plays but rather offers a very pragmatic benefit:
In its not only singular screw mechanism, but the fact that this mechanism is double threaded, each turn of the ligature screw effects twice the results of opening or closing it, as the male threads of the screw are threaded opposite to those of the female side welded to the straps.
If I may make an analogy, picture a nut and bolt. If you secure the nut and turn the bolt (normally clockwise) make no mistake, they two will be brought closer together. But if you turn the bolt clockwise while turning the nut counterclockwise this happens faster.
It's my understand that this is how the M/O ligature is built, and it allows me to more quickly switch reeds, which comes in handy when I'm adjusting new ones for potential inclusion in my reed case. 
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-09-05 02:25
Paul,
Would you please illuminate this 78 yr old guy why you put M/O, then Optimum and then Vandoren Carbon Fiber?
When I built my embouchure brace, I was sure I'd be able to play a #3 reed.
Nope.
I was still on very soft reeds. Then, I finally woke up that my lung wind power was very weak. So, I'm looking for a ligature that makes the reed extremely vibrant with minimal air pressure so my hopes of playing a stronger reed might be realized.
I am also looking into lung exercisers which are quite reasonable on Amazon.
Thanks.
p.s. Thanks SecondFry about the M/O knurled knob info. Much appreciated.
Post Edited (2025-09-05 02:30)
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Author: MikeSF
Date: 2025-09-05 04:08
I've also gone down this rabbit hole many times in the past and have experienced the brighter and darker ligatures. The best tonguing response for me comes from the clear(or white) plastic Luyben ligature, which stands apart in this category from all my others.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-09-05 04:23
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I'm looking for a ligature
> that makes the reed extremely vibrant with minimal air pressure
> so my hopes of playing a stronger reed might be realized.
>
This question takes me on yet another tangent. A quick story:
I'm hypothetically faced with cutting a piece of wood. For the energy I expend doing this with a saw, which is likely to yield better results: clamping the living daylights out of that wood or holding it in one hand while I cut with the other and that all but unrestricted piece of wood vibrates and the cut takes forever to complete?
Of course clamping that wood right. So along that line of reasoning, to seek Dan's outcome why wouldn't I recommend he use a metal ligature that clamps that reed down like I'd like to see a "wild bull secured near small children?"
Rephrase: which diving board is apt to give me the most spring, the one whose base is securely attached or one that isn't (physics obviously favoring the former?)
I respect that the immutable laws of physics may not so cleanly apply here. And yet, when working with a soft reed, my leather ligature is better, while a hard reed favors a metal one.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-09-05 04:47
MikeSF,
Interesting...I take it that you tried the black Luyben and the white one performed better for you? Huh...I would think that they would have responded identically.
Thanks for your input.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-09-05 05:49
Quote:
Then, I finally woke up that my lung wind power was very weak. So, I'm looking for a ligature that makes the reed extremely vibrant with minimal air pressure so my hopes of playing a stronger reed might be realized.
Some of the more vibrant or responsive ligatures I have played are the old Bay ligature and the Vandoren master's (predecessor to the M/O)
Quote:
The best tonguing response for me comes from the clear(or white) plastic Luyben ligature, which stands apart in this category from all my others.
I think the Luyben ligature is often overlooked as a really fine ligature that works well and is very inexpensive. I am also curious if you perceive the black one (or any of their other colors) as being different than the clear
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-09-05 06:03
Is there something (I don't think so) about the make up of the materials that make a Luyben ligature (which I think is a fine product BTW) based on the color they are made of..
..other than, of course the color, that might explain differences in play?
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2025-09-05 18:28
SecondTry:
During a previous "ligature thread", I contacted the Luyben company with that question. No, there is no difference in the materials used for the different colored ligatures.
But wouldn't it be fun to fill a thread arguing that the red one had a warmer sound, the silver one a brighter sound, etc.
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
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