 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetwoman
Date: 2022-10-30 00:23
Hello,
Were there any finalists to the Atlanta Symphony Principal Clarinet Audition Held Recently?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-10-30 07:35
Once again, thanks for posting the audition notice.
Also, so what's happening with Laura Ardan?
I guess a well deserved retirement after 40 years as principal?
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-10-30 20:59
A lot more colorful language avoided. But since you asked, I feel the 30,000 ft view of this internet entity is TO HELP EACH OTHER. Even the most specific question about the most esoteric clarinet (or part of a clarinet etc) can be quite useful to others looking in. What benefit is it to know, within hours, who won an audition (except to the winner and the ensemble)?!!?
I don’t see how this can at all be helpful information. How does this enrich your life Philip?
………..Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-10-30 22:57
Paul Aviles wrote:
> ...What benefit is it to know, within hours,
> who won an audition (except to the winner and the ensemble)?!!?
>
> I don’t see how this can at all be helpful information. How
> does this enrich your life Philip?
>
On the other hand, whose loss is it to have the question asked and an answer given (even if it's "no decision yet")?
Seems like that would be two short posts and everyone could move on. No?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-10-31 02:28
Don't miss the point Karl. Though seemingly a very slight difference, if this post was......
"Congratulations to Miss/Mr. So-and-so for making the second chair clarinet position with the Poughkeepsie Philharmonic. She/he is a most talented young player and we will all hear much more from her/him in the near future!"
That's more than fine.
There is a creepy voyeuristic aspect to trying to get these up to the minute results on auditions. Reminiscent of the movie "Rear Window." Have we all seen this movie? Jimmy Stewart plays a photo journalist convalescing in his New York city apartment and passes the time by peering in on his neighbors through his "rear window" into their "rear windows" across the courtyard in the next apartment using his camera equipped with a high powered zoom lens. Things spiral out of control when he believes he witnesses a man killing his wife. A classic Hitchcock movie makes for a great psycho-thriller delving into the dark recesses of the human psyche. It does not make for great fodder for this platform, in my humble opinion.
I am open to counter arguments from those who need to have this up to the minute information and glean something meaningful from it.
And, by the way, could those of you who benefit from this information talk about the audition in advance so that we are all "in on it?" Or is that too much trouble? Shouldn't we list ALL the attendees so we can turn the process into an episode of Survivor or The Amazing Race? Wouldn't that be fun?
But what would we learn from it?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-10-31 05:59
Paul Aviles wrote:
> There is a creepy voyeuristic aspect to trying to get these up
> to the minute results on auditions. Reminiscent of the movie
> "Rear Window."
[shrugs] I don't see the parallel.
>
> I am open to counter arguments from those who need to have this
> up to the minute information and glean something meaningful
> from it.
>
Maybe they're just curious?
>
> And, by the way, could those of you who benefit from this
> information talk about the audition in advance so that we are
> all "in on it?" Or is that too much trouble? Shouldn't we
> list ALL the attendees so we can turn the process into an
> episode of Survivor or The Amazing Race? Wouldn't that be fun?
>
>
> But what would we learn from it?
Paul, I don't think I'll learn much from it - I'm not auditioning these days nor do I know anyone who is.
But neither of us is obligated to read the posts in this or any other thread. If you don't click on a thread, it won't open and you can spend more time reading other threads that interest you. And then everyone is happy.
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2022-10-31 20:28
I was just going to say "Oh, shut up. Not everything on this BBoard is to your taste so don't open those that displease you." But I won't. Karl said it much more eloquently. There's a lot more threads that I find less entertaining.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2022-10-31 21:00
Stop mucking up the bboard with audition posts! We need to hear more about ligatures!
What type of ligature works best with a beginner clarinet? What type of ligature will help quick-fix my mediocre clarinet playing? Did anyone see the new Martin Frost video: what type of ligature was he playing?
These are the questions we need answered!
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-11-01 00:56
And cases too!
Which case is going to improve my sound?!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-01 01:51
Got a great suggestion (I realized that I had not proposed a solution).
Next time we post the names of all participants in an upcoming audition about two weeks out. Mark and Karl can come up with reasonable odds based on information from the rest of the Board's busy-bodies and we can all place bets on who will win the seat. The Board will raise money, some lucky winners will make money and absolutely no one will learn anything.
It'll be a win, win, win !!!!
:-)
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Author: prigault
Date: 2022-11-01 03:30
My playing really started to improve once I got the right ligature case.
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2022-11-01 04:34
Post the names of all the participants?
Not only does someone have the proverbial bee up his…well, whatever…but they also appear to have no idea whatsoever how auditions at this level are run.
The only way you will EVER learn who is auditioning - meaning a full list of those auditioning - is for you to hack the orchestra’s network.
Good luck with that.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-01 12:36
This is the best thread in ages for being properly hilarious. Cheered my day up no end.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-11-01 17:53
m1964 wrote:
> And cases too!
> Which case is going to improve my sound?!
This is absurd. Everyone knows that cases won't improve your sound unless you have your mouthpiece refaced too. Closer tip openings for double cases works for me.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-11-02 01:11
I can think of any number of reasons that clarinetwoman might have interest in the audition.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2022-11-02 04:24
Paul:
Imagine that I know of an audition taking place. I may have friends, colleagues, acquaintances, ex-students, or just people that I have heard of, taking part in the audition. By the end of the audition day I will curious to hear of the outcome.
Do you agree with me so far?
So then I try to find out about what happened. Maybe there are people that I can text or call. Maybe I can check out Facebook posts or whatever social media there is (honestly I'm not very clued up on that). Or maybe I can use the Clarinet BBoard, which is after all "A Forum for Clarinet Players". It seems like a relevant question to post on that kind of forum.
Why shouldn't I be able to post that question here?
It seems to me that your aversion to these types of posts says far more about you than any indication of "back yard gossip"??
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2022-11-02 04:56
I'm confused about this thread. What is wrong with the original post and why is it "elitist"?
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-11-02 07:42
Only one person can give you an answer.
Not me- I am in the process of re-facing my clarinet case opening. Hopefully new case opening will improve my sound projection
BTW, this thread turned out to be really interesting to read.
I too think it was an "appropriate question" to ask on a clarinet forum/board.
Don't like the thread- no reason to reply to it...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-02 14:37
Thank you Liquorice for taking this seriously enough to provide some logic.
My counter would be that in a few weeks the orchestra will put out an official announcement and the the whole world will know (and we'll all be enjoying "Whats-His-Name's" playing in the 2023-24 season).
Your friends will probably get the information to you a bit sooner and you can all go out and have a beer to celebrate. The "I-have-to-have-this-information-NOW" aspect is the icing to the the "I don't need to share any information that I have with this rabble" cake.
So is original poster thinking, "I don't need any extra competition?" Or is the original poster thinking, "I really don't care about anybody else?"
My wife said I need to walk away from from the computer and think about what I am about to say before I hit send. I told her I did that at least six times over two days. She just walked away.
So maybe I get a little "over heated." But I still feel that we should all feel just a little used by this sort of query that has a life span of about a minute.
...............Paul Aviles
P.S. And what the blazes is going on with Laura Ardan........anyone care?!!/
Post Edited (2022-11-02 14:38)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-02 15:04
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-11-02 15:07)
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2022-11-02 15:27
The original poster asked if there were any finalists - not who they were. And, unless members of the audition committee and/or the personnel manager(s) were to make that information public (and why on earth would they?), nobody is going to know.
Secondly, just in case anyone might be interested, the only people likely to know who might have been advanced in the audition process would be the personnel managers. Most major orchestras today hold all their auditions behind a screen so that the audition committee is unaware as to who is playing. This is the name of fairness. The audition committee will be aware of how many go on to the next round - but not who they are.
It’s not elitist, it’s not special, it’s not about announcements or pronouncements - it’s about filling an open position. Pretty much the same as filling any other type of job.
You know, it’s no different than four people looking to get hired as a vacuum cleaner demonstrator - only one will get the job. Who asks who else applied?
As far as Laura Ardan is concerned? Well, why don’t you contact the Atlanta Symphony if you’re so curious? Or call her…
P.S. Oh, btw, were there any finalists at the Detroit Symphony Orchestra’s Assistant Principal/E-flat Clarinet audition? 😂
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-11-03 13:36
lmliberson wrote:
>... just in case anyone might be interested, the only
> people likely to know who might have been advanced in the
> audition process would be the personnel managers. Most major
> orchestras today hold all their auditions behind a screen so
> that the audition committee is unaware as to who is playing.
> This is the name of fairness. The audition committee will be
> aware of how many go on to the next round - but not who they
> are...
I was told there were ways to "inform" the audition committee who is behind the curtain, like coughing aTcertain time or moving the bow in a certain way.
Don't know if it's true.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-11-03 13:38
lmliberson wrote:
>... just in case anyone might be interested, the only
> people likely to know who might have been advanced in the
> audition process would be the personnel managers. Most major
> orchestras today hold all their auditions behind a screen so
> that the audition committee is unaware as to who is playing.
> This is the name of fairness. The audition committee will be
> aware of how many go on to the next round - but not who they
> are...
I was told there were ways to "inform" the audition committee who is behind the curtain, like coughing at certain time or moving the bow in a specific way.
Don't know if it's true.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-03 16:46
hmmmm...........
sounds like the Houston Astros
I suppose I need to let that one go too
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: McDonalds Eater
Date: 2022-11-03 19:04
Here is the actual answer to the post. I’m from Atlanta and “connected” with the ATL musicians network.
There are at least two finalists, one of whom I know very much and definitely more than capable for the job. I won’t disclose names because the ASO likes to keep things rather private, so I will respect it. We will just let time and the ASO decide when to announce the winner, if there is one.
As far as Laura Ardan goes, she is just retiring. Plain and simple. She had a fantastic career and will be dearly missed. No more info in this aspect so stop overthinking. Saw her not too long ago and she is doing great. She still has that great charm that she always had.
On another note, there’s nothing wrong with simply asking who made finals or audition results. A lot of us are just simply curious. It’s not like we will lose a leg by seeing a certain name on a finalist list. The world will carry on and that will be that. None of us are trying to gain or lose anything by simply knowing the result of an audition, so stop the overthinking.
Post Edited (2022-11-03 19:05)
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2022-11-03 20:08
“I was told there were ways to "inform" the audition committee who is behind the curtain, like coughing at certain time or moving the bow in a specific way.
Don't know if it's true.”
Well, I suppose anything is possible but your scenario is highly unlikely - unless, perhaps, we’re speaking of the Podunk Phil?
The assumption is that the entire audition committee would be privy to the “cough”. So how would they know which person was coughing if such auditions were anonymous, one after the other, all day long? And moving the bow? Unless members of the committee have x-ray vision, I don’t see it (pun not intended there!).
Over the course of my career (46 years), I’ve listened to literally hundreds and hundreds of auditions, never once experiencing that of which you mention. Doesn’t mean it hasn’t occurred but, again, highly unlikely.
All those that audition are given very explicit instructions: no talking (any questions to be directed to the proctor), wearing soft-soled shoes, etc., in order to preserve both the anonymity of the person auditioning and the fairness of the audition. A committee wants to judge an audition on the playing and nothing else.
Now (not really wanting to open a can of worms here…), if people could understand what “highly qualified” meant…😬
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-03 22:35
For a principal position in a high caliber orchestra, highly qualified means you already are in a decent orchestra and are probably their principal player.
I’m heartened to hear Laura Ardan is going to enjoy a much deserved retirement.
The question itself regarding the existence of finalists is harmless. It is the deafening silence preceding the question that makes it rude. If we are not willing to discuss this process from the beginning (ie an audition notice for those capable and interested) then perhaps we have abdicated the right to know specifics, here on this Board, BEFORE the general public.
…………..Paul Aviles
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Author: prigault
Date: 2022-11-03 23:21
Paul Aviles wrote:
> For a principal position in a high caliber orchestra, highly
> qualified means you already are in a decent orchestra and are
> probably their principal player.
With a "method" like this, the Opéra de Paris would have been missing out on Philippe Cuper, ONF on Pascal Moraguès, OPL on Olivier Dartevelle, BPO on Andreas Ottensamer, to name just a few of the major orchestras.
Post Edited (2022-11-04 07:07)
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2022-11-03 23:44
Quote:
For a principal position in a high caliber orchestra, highly qualified means you already are in a decent orchestra and are probably their principal player.
Au contraire!
Some orchestras pre-screen by resume, some allow all comers. And while what you state might be the ideal for some, it’s hardly exclusive. Truth be told, the majority of those auditioning for many (not all) positions really have no business being there. But that’s just my way of thinking, I guess.
Quote:
The question itself regarding the existence of finalists is harmless. It is the deafening silence preceding the question that makes it rude. If we are not willing to discuss this process from the beginning (ie an audition notice for those capable and interested) then perhaps we have abdicated the right to know specifics, here on this Board, BEFORE the general public.
Not to be rude, but if I just woke up from a coma, I might ask who the president is. I can ask about the campaign later…
So I have an idea for you, Paul. If the process is all that important to you, perhaps we should nominate you to do that for all who might have an interest. You could check the web sites of orchestras, consult the International Musician for audition notices, contact the individual orchestras to gather intelligence, and report back to us all the goings on!
I’m more than certain it would appeal to some readers here a lot more than what ligature so-and-so is using on whatever YouTube video…
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-11-04 16:50
Having been on the audition trail, and knowing people who have both won auditions and who are currently still auditioning I can imagine quite a few reasons the OP posed her question.... here are just a couple
- OP wanted to do audition but it clashed with another commitment, hopes that no one advanced so they'll have another audition later.
- OP performs in that group in an acting position, wants to know how likely any further contracts are but doesn't want to appear pushy so it fishing for any information (less likely but still possible)
- OP couldn't do audition for health reasons, wants to know if another audition likely (I know of instances where pregnancy has prevented potential auditions, and also one player who won multiple auditions while pregnant and then had to do trials while nursing a months old baby because the orchestra wouldn't postpone the trials).
I could go on.
To say that the OP was "elitist" was ridiculous. I also agree that this might not be best way to find out details, but was worth a try.
Thanks Larry Liberson for your contribution and insights from the inside.
dn
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-11-04 20:37
Donald,
Thank you for good summary.
The thread was interesting for me, as an amateur, to start understanding how things are done in the professional world.
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-11-29 11:25
While it’s great that most USA orchestras use the curtain(blind auditions) for all rounds now, there is a catch that really makes it not a fair fight.
Experience is important, of course, so many players are invited to start in either the semifinals or sometimes the final rounds. Conversely, A truly fair fight, a truly fair competition, would be that every single applicant starts in the first round with the curtain up and the committee has no idea who’s playing.
If friends or colleagues or people who have been subbing with the orchestra are pre-advanced to the semifinal or final round, the committee may not know exactly who is playing when, but they do know that there is a group of people who they’ve worked with before or who are their buddies, etc. starting in the semi finals or finals.
This situation absolutely causes committee members to listen defensively, especially in preliminary rounds. If their best friend from college, or someone who they love playing with is starting in the finals or the semifinals, they will be less likely to pass people who sound great in the preliminary rounds. One would instinctively want to protect their friends, colleagues, and favorite players who are already starting in the semifinal or finals.
When I was younger, I was principal clarinet of a well-known orchestra outside the USA for many years. This orchestra still has a very strict system of audtitioning--every applicant must go through live, blind, preliminary rounds. When I was working there, I suggested to my colleagues that we mimic the American style of pre-advancing people. My fellow orchestral members thought this was a totally corrupt suggestion (lol!). They actually laughed it off and were like "yeah, that would be a great way to rig the system--it will make it much more likely that we take one of our friends!" It was only years later with more life experience that I realized how right they were.
There is a famous example from many years ago of exactly what I’m talking about that happened in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Many excellent players auditioned for a clarinet position there, and none of them got it, because the orchestra’s favorite candidate (cough, who also was the Principal's lover and student at the time) had already been pre-advanced to the finals or semi-finals. People do not listen to preliminary rounds fairly when their friends, colleagues, favorite students, lovers, favorite players etc. are pre-advanced. I hate to point it out, but I believe that the current second clarinetist of the ASO was Laura Ardan's former student. I wonder if that player had to battle their way through the preliminaries--I suspect not.
It’s wonderful that American Symphony Orchestras are using the curtain, having blind auditions, but to really make a truly fair audition, every single applicant should have to go through the live blind first round at any given audition. Let's be honest-- sometimes the best player does win the job, but the way the system is now, nepotism still finds a way.
Post Edited (2022-11-29 18:09)
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-11-29 12:38
I have been at auditions (not in the USA) where "known" players (who had subbed/played in acting position) were NOT pre advanced and did not advance after playing the first round with everybody else. They later pretended they were not at the audition, despite many of us SEEING them, to avoid embarrassment (thus causing themselves further humiliation to be frank)
Oddly enough, THE SAME ORCHESTRA later "gave" a job to a player who had not advanced in the auditions, but had played for several years in acting positions. They ended up with someone who could do the job, and who they liked (important quality for insecure personalities) but not necessarily the "best" person.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-29 18:19
I am pretty sure that much of the fairness (auditions in the first place and how they are run) are results of the American Federation of Musicians. They used to be more powerful than they are now but they still help fair wages and fair treatment.
My memory of the embarrassment that was the Met auditions was that after three complete rounds of auditions NO ONE was chosen.......not one clarinet player was worthy. As nice a man as Russianoff was, he publicly stated at a clarinet fest how stupid that all was. Of course Ricardo Morales put an end to that debacle so maybe the wait was worth it.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2022-11-29 18:21)
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-11-29 20:13
Interesting point about the American Federation of Musicians....
Ricardo Morales is very talented, but all of those jobs that he won--he didn't have to go through the first round again, and he may not have won Philly, New York Phil and Chicago if he had had to battle his way through the first round again. In fact, I know that the first time he auditioned for Philly, the committee there said “no” to him. He had been pre-advanced to the finals based on his position at the met. As another user posted above and as I’ve seen from experience too, in other countries where the "pre-advancing" thing doesn't happen, famous players go to auditions all the time and get swatted out like flies in the first round. In the end, I suppose all of that is a testament to the miracle of winning an orchestral audition.
I think that one possible reason why auditions result sometime with no winner in the USA is also because of the "pre-advancing" factor. When people are pre-advanced, certain members of the committee will absolutely go in with an agenda and will vote in a way to try to make sure that their best friend, student, lover, favorite player, etc., has a better chance to make it through. When some jury members are voting like this and others are being fair, it increases the likelihood of strange results. Also, if jury members who are being fair become aware of another jury member trying to push through someone with a connection, the whole thing can get silly and fall apart.
Sadly, I was a judge once at an orchestral blind audition, where another committee member whispered to me “this is my student playing now, please vote for her.” So unfortunately, people do try to cheat the system sometimes. However, in the case of the audition where I witnessed that, this cheating committee member was unsuccessful in his attempt to push his student through and was punished by the orchestra afterwards.
Post Edited (2022-11-29 20:59)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2022-11-29 21:16
Maybe it's debatable whether blind auditions produce better results than public ones. In either type, seemingly lesser results occur.
Why are competitive auditions used to select long-term ensemble members? The more unbiased they are, the more likely they are to award success to people that turn out to be unable to cope with the job.
Other employers filter job applicants based on their public identity and work history, and they have lists of traits or abilities they're seeking. Those lists include more than technical or performance ability.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-29 23:10
Hi Philip,
Is this partly a problem because there are a lot of candidates who have the performance skills for the job, and not enough jobs to go round?
I see very similar things happening in other careers where there are too many candidates and too few jobs. (I mean adverts being written so that only the internal candidate would meet the requirements, and things like that.)
If there is an explosion in the work and money available, and suddenly good jobs outnumber good candidates, things seem to change very quickly.
I've been in a number of careers in a small way, and it seems to me that whenever the politics gets a bit toxic, it's usually because there are not as many good jobs as there are good candidates.
When that situation arises, I think it can be genuinely difficult to distinguish who is really the "best" candidate, because really quite a lot of them would be fine. So maybe the audition is partly just a lottery?
Jen
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-11-30 02:04
Philip Caron wrote:
"Maybe it's debatable whether blind auditions produce better results than public ones. In either type, seemingly lesser results occur.
Why are competitive auditions used to select long-term ensemble members? The more unbiased they are, the more likely they are to award success to people that turn out to be unable to cope with the job.
Other employers filter job applicants based on their public identity and work history, and they have lists of traits or abilities they're seeking. Those lists include more than technical or performance ability."
More than once I have heard (from professional players), "Never choose a sub that is better then the principal".
Another (big) factor in choosing a player should be the personality of the candidates - what good it will do if the new player cannot get alone with other players or group members?
IMO, playing better than someone else alone probably not going to win the position, esp. if the other person(s) are very, very close musically but have better personality.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-30 02:37
Lest we forget, all symphonies have a probationary period so that they can "move on" if things are not working.
I'm personally against using any other series of qualifications for a symphonic position other than musical criteria. Even when you have the personnel in place things can go south personality wise. I recall a period in the CSO where the first flute player and principal oboe did not speak to each other for about twenty years........things happen.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-11-30 06:00
I’m happy that these posts have produced such an interesting discussion. It is a fascinating topic.
Jen made a comment about “ the lottery” notion, and I have to disagree somewhat. The last time I was a judge at an international music competition, I convinced my fellow jurors to put up the screen for the first round. We listened to about 150 candidates each play the same piece. Everyone got about 7 minutes. We did this over 2~3 days. No one was pre-advanced—this was a solo competition.
When jurors are listening to a high volume participant audition/competition, it is all taking place behind a screen, and the judges understand that they must advance some people, it amazing how much agreement there is on the basis of ability—i.e.”who played the best”. Great players really stick out in this situation. When I judged orchestral blind auditions in the same situation where no one was preadvanced, everyone must go through a live blind first round, and the committee understands that it is our job to fill the position, again, there tends to be vigorous agreement—--even amongst people with varying tastes about who played the best.
All the other points people are making are also so interesting.
I’ve been thinking about this for many years, and I would put forth that the best and most fair way to audition candidates for an orchestral position would be to have a series of blind preliminary auditions, in which every participant must go through—--no pre-advancing nepotism nonsense. Then, the orchestra’s HR team could also incorporate spoken interviews with the final 10 or so candidates to screen for personality issues. There absolutely needs to be a balance of evaluating people on the basis of ability and personality. That’s all important for day to day working together.
The orchestra that I played in that had very strict blind auditions, there was no evaluation for personality for the job. It was an extremely strict blind audition, no one was preadvanced, and we had to choose who sounded best….. Because there was no personality evaluation at the audition, just as others are writing above, there were people in the orchestra who hated each other, they couldn’t get along for decades, didn’t speak for years, etc. An evaluation that combined a true ability test (strict blind audition with no preadvancing) and interviews to screen for personality issues might be a better approach.
I really applaud USA orchestras for using the curtain as much as they are, but much of the time, the results reflect nepotism and not ability, and rooting out nepotism was the whole reason why blind auditions came into existence. Nowadays in the USA, I think that The musicians are gaming the system by preadvancing people. I actually, I don’t think this, I know this. lol.
I’m hoping that everything I’m writing here will end up not applying to the recent ASO audition, and the winning candidate will not be someone connected to the orchestra who started in the finals or semifinals or is one of the orchestra’s favorites who had been subbing with them…. Everyone should have to go through a live blind first round for each audition to truly make it fair competition.
Post Edited (2022-11-30 08:09)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-11-30 08:26
HeyHoHey wrote:
>
> I’m hoping that everything I’m writing here will end up not
> applying to the recent ASO audition, and the winning candidate
> will not be someone connected to the orchestra who started in
> the finals or semifinals or is one of the orchestra’s
> favorites who had been subbing with them…. Everyone should
> have to go through a live blind first round for each audition
> to truly make it fair competition.
>
Excluding someone only because the person worked as a sub or is a friend of a member of the orchestra is not a good policy either, IMO.
An interview with the best 5-10 candidates seems like a good approach to me, although it does not guarantee that the new person will get along with everyone.
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-11-30 08:43
M1964 wrote:
“Excluding someone only because the person worked as a sub or is a friend of a member of the orchestra is not a good policy either, IMO.”
I did not write that that person should be excluded, but if you want a truly fair audition based on ability, then that person needs to start in an equal position to every other candidate behind a screen. That is simply not the case when people are pre-advanced.
Conversely, giving your friends, people who you’ve worked with, your relatives, your lovers, etc. a leg up at an audition that claims to be “fair” is, in fact, the very definition of nepotism.
Let those friends of the orchestra go through the first round just like everybody else with the screen up. And if they make it to the finals or win, I’ll be the first to say “heyhohey, well done!” to them.
Post Edited (2022-11-30 09:40)
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-11-30 09:03
If my lover or favorite former student was pre-advanced to the finals or semifinals, even if it was a blind audition, why would I bother voting for anybody who I listen to in the preliminaries? My mental start-line as a committee member is “oh, my favorite student / my lover is starting in the finals/semi-finals, and I really want him/her to win.” This situation has happened in both the clarinet sections of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and the ASO. The well-known professional orchestra that I played in on the other side of the world, the judge sitting next to me tried to cheat the blind audition to help his student! This happens everywhere. Music judges with this mental start-line will vote defensively, and if they are successful, the result often shows nepotism…… or perhaps their student / lover played the the best audition (from the finals…. :-/
I’m not saying here that the system is rotten to the core—it just needs to be tweaked. Blind auditions are definitely the way to go. And the best player does sometimes win.
But if we want to make this as fair as possible, and really have the audition be about ability And the taste of a particular committee, why not have everybody go through a blind, live preliminary first round for each audition?
Frankly, more people should speak out about this, I think.
Post Edited (2022-11-30 09:48)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-30 11:09
HeyHoHey, It's really great to know that the blind audition process does work so extremely well for picking out great talent. I've never done anything like that at all so it was really interesting to hear about your experience and thoughts on it.
I think your idea for making the system work better sounds great.
I have noticed that in the London Symphony Orchestra masterclass videos on youtube, that all the players seem to be extremely nice people, as well as good musicians. I have no idea how they pick them though.
Another thing that occurred to me is about the question of excluding close contacts automatically to avoid nepotism in other career paths. I know that does happen because my best friend got sacked from her job as a pharmacist when her husband got promoted to be the area manager, since it was not permitted that he should be her supervisor. She had met him in the same pharmacy shop when they were first employed there, but as he became her manager she had to leave, just because of the risk of nepotism. That doesn't really seem to be a very good system at all, but I see that there are problems both ways.
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-11-30 13:00
SunnyDaze, I agree that someone should not be sacked from their job just because of perceived nepotism in the situation that you describe above. What you describe above sounds totally unfair. Sorry that happened to your friend.
I am also NOT saying that the Principal clarinet’s lover, former star student , the orchestra’s favorite substitute player, or the entire committee’s best friend from college should be disqualified from getting a position, because of their connection. It’s possible that that person will play the best audition and deserves to win.
What I’m saying is, that some of the time, there appears to be a bit of a hiccup or a catch in the blind audition system in the USA. The best players will not win or advance, and instead the principal’s lover, former star student, the orchestra’s favorite substitute, or everyone’s best friend from college still wins the job in the USA even though it’s blind. I’m quite sure that adjudicators “listen defensively” when there is a candidate at the audition starting in the semifinals or finals who a given adjudicator is hoping will be the winner. Despite being blind, the audition will sometimes still have a nepotistic result for USA orchestral auditions because of the system of “pre-advancement.”
The orchestra on the other side of the world where I worked as principal clarinet, like I said, we had a blind audition where every single applicant regardless of how famous or not famous they are, regardless of connections to the orchestra, everyone had to go through the first round that was blind. The winner was almost always, I would say 99% of the time, someone who was completely unknown to the orchestra.
We didn’t evaluate the winning candidates personality in that system, which is definitely a weakness of that system. But it was definitely a fair audition, a fair shake. It could only have been cheated if somebody actively tried to, and I witnessed someone trying to do that, but they were unsuccessful and then disciplined by the orchestra afterwards.
Even though the auditions are blind in the United States, because people are being pre-advanced, I’m not entirely convinced that it’s a fair shake.
Post Edited (2022-11-30 14:57)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-30 16:47
Hi HeyHoHey,
It's really great that you can all talk about this stuff on the forum and think about ways to make the system fairer. That's really fantastic. You're ideas sound really good.
I know the same discussion are happening in the Universities at the moment and I think it's such a hugely positive thing.
Jen
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-11-30 18:58
I wish that I could put a little heart next to that message on the bboard next to Jen’s message! We need a technical upgrade on this message board! What gives!?!? LoL
I do believe that great talents rise up in classical music, but there’s also a lot of monkey business and a lot of nepotism in the world of auditions and competitions —the nepotism still exists in the American blind audition system. I believe that It’s the duty of every generation to really look closely at our systems for evaluating one another and ask ourselves how we can make it more fair, more based on ability, more based on something righteous and good—to find the best way to choose people for these prestigious positions who are both great human beings and great musicians.
Peace!
Post Edited (2022-11-30 19:19)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-30 20:28
This reminds me of the official way "nepotism" is addressed in the US military. It probably is no surprise that we have similar numbers of males and females in the ranks of many (not all) military units. In the band field it is not uncommon for married couples to serve together in the same unit (and accommodations are made as much as possible to allow them to continue to transfer to the same gaining unit when they need to have a permanent change of station).
The wrinkle comes in when one of the members of the couple is of sufficient rank to be a rater (one who officially evaluates the job performance of another). That person is not allowed to be the spouse's rater. The further wrinkle comes when that rater is basically in charge of everyone such as a First Sergeant. If that happens, the couple can not serve in the same unit.
...........Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2022-12-01 04:38)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-12-01 03:22
HeyHoHey wrote:
"M1964 wrote:
“Excluding someone only because the person worked as a sub or is a friend of a member of the orchestra is not a good policy either, IMO.”
I did not write that that person should be excluded, but if you want a truly fair audition based on ability, then that person needs to start in an equal position to every other candidate behind a screen. That is simply not the case when people are pre-advanced.
Conversely, giving your friends, people who you’ve worked with, your relatives, your lovers, etc. a leg up at an audition that claims to be “fair” is, in fact, the very definition of nepotism..."
HeyHoHey,
I did not write anything about audition process, only about excluding a certain player from a competition based on his ties to the orchestra or to a person who is in the position to influence the results of an audition.
I do agree it is fear that everyone starts from the same point of the audition process. Would it guarantee the fair judgement?
Not necessarily since the musical abilities of the person that, otherwise, would have been pre-advanced, are known to the member(s) of the audition committee, that person will simply advance to the second round because it will be known when he/she is playing, even behind a curtain.
In addition, assuming that a member of the audition committee will advance an inferior player who they know vs. a better player who they do not know is only an assumption.
For example, during the audition at BSO a very well known player who is a friend of Bill Hodges did not win the position.
Anyway, I am learning a lot about "internal workings" of being a professional musician (not that I would ever benefit from the knowledge).
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-12-01 08:20
@m1964, You make some really great points about this, but I can only speak from personal experience.
@m1964 wrote:
“ In addition, assuming that a member of the audition committee will advance an inferior player who they know vs. a better player who they do not know is only an assumption. ”
In my experience, this isn’t an assumption. It has happened before. It still happens now. People who are about 40 years old and older will recall A Metropolitan Opera Orchestra audition where the principal’s lover was chosen over far, far superior applicants for a position. Those far superior applicants, after losing that audition at the MET to the pre-advanced “principal’s lover”, went on to win other principal positions in big five orchestras later on. I’m not gonna name names, because I don’t want to air dirty laundry in a blog online. Many people know the story.
The result of this particular audition was definitely nepotism because of being pre-advanced. The curtain was useless, because an inferior player was preadvanced to the finals (or perhaps semi finals, but I think it was the finals).
What I’m writing about doesn’t happen all the time, sometimes it’s totally fair. I’m not arguing that the system is completely broken or it’s totally rigged. But there are definitely ways to manipulate a blind audition in America or anywhere, and it does happen some of the time, mostly because people are pre-advanced.
Because there are so few positions, it really shouldn’t happen any of the time, though. And a way to increase the likelihood that this doesn’t happen at all is for every candidate to start in the first round with the screen up. It would legitimize the process and the winner more——even if the winner had connections. The winner would have to go through the exact same process as every other applicant.
If in the case that I write about above, If the principal’s lover had started in the first round like everyone else with the screen up, battled their way through until the end and won, then fair is fair, well done to the principal’s lover— if that had been the case, it would have had nothing to do with the connection most likely. In this scenario, the Principal’s lover would have gone through the exact same process as everyone else and won. Unfortunately, That is not what happened at the Met. That’s not what happens in Atlanta all the time either. Sorry.
Post Edited (2022-12-01 13:16)
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-12-01 13:26
m1964,
A close friend of mine was a player who was unfairly dismissed at that particular audition 20 years ago. And he quit the clarinet shortly there after, so you are absolutely correct. Interestingly, blind auditions that are manipulated and finally show nepotism do kind of end up separating the players who will continue and press on no matter what from the players who will quit when their self-respect and dignity are destroyed by something like that. Many of the players who end up making it to major positions have had their dignity and self respect destroyed multiple times by unfair auditions, but they keep going because it is a calling.
I’ve also seen those New York Times articles about the removal of the curtain, and while it’s an interesting discussion to have, I personally think that it’s entirely misguided.
Most of the orchestras in the country that I live in do not use the curtain. The result of almost every audition is an open celebration of nepotism— they don’t even try to hide it or sugarcoat it. The winner is almost always the clarinet jury members’ best friend from college— in the country that I live in, usually, the clarinet section only judges the preliminary rounds, and it is not screened. Normally the people who pass are the clarinet sections’ best friends from college.. I had no idea 15 years ago when I won an audition here that this particular audition was one of the only strict blind auditions in the country.
It would be a terrible mistake to remove the curtain in America, IMO. I hope they don’t do it.
Post Edited (2022-12-01 19:15)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-12-01 15:49
Hi HeyHoHey,
I was just trying to think more about this, and the fact that it seems to be a difficulty in all career paths, without there yet being a good solution in any of them. It seems as though talking about it and exchanging ideas is great for everyone really.
One of the things they have in the Universities now is a specific office whose job it is to solve what's called the "two body problem".
That means that when a hotshot academic is recruited into that university, the "two body problem" office takes on the role of making sure that a suitable job is found for the person's spouse.
This is honestly such a wonderful thing for the family, because it means that the spouse gets a job that they are actually qualified to do, and that they earn fairly.
Would that work in music at all?
Jen
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-12-01 16:35
Jen,
It’s funny you mention that because the first time I became a full-time professor of clarinet, my partner had to quit the job in our previous city, move to a new city with me, and take a lesser job! I wish that they had had the “two body problem” office at the previous uni where I taught!!!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-12-01 17:40
Hi HeyHoHey ,
Gosh, I had no idea that you'd been through that too. I think it's a really common situation but people don't talk about it so much, because it feels hard to do it.
I'm a trailing spouse too. I think if the concept was more talked about and more acceptable, then nepotism wouldn't be needed. I hope so anyway.
Jen
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Author: Mike Cyzewski
Date: 2023-01-02 21:32
Has a Principal Clarinet for this position been chosen?
Also; Any results for the Montreal Assoc. and E-flat job?
Next up: Assistant Principal NC Symphony. Winner will love playing with Sam Almaguer.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-01-03 01:46
Mike Cyzewski wrote:
> Next up: Assistant Principal NC Symphony. Winner will love
> playing with Sam Almaguer.
Hi, Mike! I hope you're well. Happy New Year!
Is that your job in NC?
Karl
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Author: Mike Cyzewski
Date: 2023-01-03 22:04
Hi Karl!
Happy New Year to you and Kim.
Yes:That is my former position. I retired from the NC Symphony in 2020. 47 years was enough
One year replacements have been used since then.
I stumbled upon a website; Audition Forum which posts Audition results.
Saw that Philly is still looking a new Pricinpal Trumpet.
I always read your posts.
Mike
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