 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: crvsp
Date: 2021-04-02 19:29
Just thought I would share my submission to a local concerto competition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74aGO-w8xI&ab_channel=
Feedback is welcome if you want to give any!
Post Edited (2021-04-03 04:19)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-04-02 22:58
Feedback for students can have positive or negative impacts. The best feedback provides information which fills the gap between what is hoping to be learnt and what is already understood. In order to do this effectively, there needs to be a learning context in which this feedback is addressed.
I have doubts that putting up a link on a forum like this will provide you with very useful information, unless you can specifically provide more background on the context of the performance ("local concerto competition" isn't enough information. We need to know more about your age, study programme, etc.) and what specifically you are hoping to receive feedback about. Most professionals would charge you for their time in providing this information. Without this background you only will receive arbitrary opinions from random anonymous people.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-04-02 23:45
So my random, anonymous opinion is that the Homage to Bach and Weber are beautifully played..........technically proficient and quite musical.
I also love the "effortless" embouchure. More of us should have one!
But that's just my arbitrary, random, anonymous opinion. Those of others may vary.
Your teacher(s) deserve a pat on the back
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: crvsp
Date: 2021-04-03 01:03
Random information is information regardless! And I can distinguish what feedback I can actually take into account
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-04-03 01:58
There you go. You got some (meaningless) feedback from a random person. You received the validation that you seeked but you didn't learn anything. Mission accomplished?
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Author: crvsp
Date: 2021-04-03 02:41
I don't quite understand why you seem to be getting hasty over this matter... I did mention in my initial post that feedback is WELCOME, not NEEDED. Posted my video because I wanted to share. My primary intention was just that, getting "meaningless" feedback is just the strawberry on top.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-04-03 03:55
Liquorice is a serious musician and all-around smart dude. For what it's worth, his posts are insightful and worth much consideration.
Quote:
Feedback for students can have positive or negative impacts. The best feedback provides information which fills the gap between what is hoping to be learnt and what is already understood. In order to do this effectively, there needs to be a learning context in which this feedback is addressed.
This stuff, for instance, is gold.
I could tell you that the playing seems stiff and that there are pitch issues, with the sound and intonation sagging when you push. But, of course, you have no idea who I am or whether my ears are trained enough for this information to be relevant. Moreover, perhaps your teacher, for some particular pedagogical reason, has been working with you to eliminate unnecessary body movement and to play in a more grounded, slightly less flexible way. And because of my random comment, you attempt to change something in your performance and undo some of your teacher's work.
Even though we're all capable of filtering through the comments, it's the nature of high-level perfectionist musicians to try and incorporate whatever feedback they get. It's much safer, as Liquorice suggests, to receive comments in an educational setting: you know the teacher is competent and there's a dialogue, during which the student can express what he or she was going for, the teacher can express whether that came across, suggestions can be tried and discarded, and so forth.
In this setting, you might need to be super specific about what you want people to listen for ("How's the expression during the slow opening section of Kovacs?" or "How's my rhythm during the Weber theme?"). And even then, other than some affirmation, nearly nothing good can come from the comments here.
But good luck to you, man! Sounds good!
Post Edited (2021-04-05 01:38)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-04-03 10:06
I actually mean well. Perhaps my tone gave a different impression. I hadn't assumed that your primary intention was really just to share.
I'm sure there are many good teachers out there at this moment who have time to give online lessons. If you really want useful feedback, you would do better to contact them.
Good luck!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-04-04 01:28
To expand and particularize a little on one suggestion both brycon and Liquorice made: There has never before been anything close to the number of great players, distinguished teachers, and recent international contest winners as there are now who offer their services one-on-one, Zoom style on Internet. An aspiring student can listen first to these players perform on YouTube and elsewhere on the net, look at their vitas, and then decide who might be a relevant teacher or mentor for them.
One good place to start is https://www.playwithapro.com/live/teachers/clarinet.
Some players in this list whose performances I have heard with pleasure and admiration are Emil Johnson, Pavel Vinnitsky, Mattteo Mastromarino, Amaury Viduvier, Tommaso Lonquich, Mark Nuccio, Ayako Oshima, Andreas Sunden, Charles Neidich, Kevin Spagnlo, and Vitor Fernandes.
If I wanted honest and constructive criticism of my playing, I would feel in good, knowledgeable hands with any of these, especially if their opinions were expressed privately on my own computer rather than publicly under the glare of multitudinous clarinetists looking and listening.
Post Edited (2021-04-04 05:39)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-04-04 04:28
Well, I tried 4 times to view his video.
Either I'm doing something wrong with copy and paste, or...
he simply removed his video.
If he did, I wouldn't blame him.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-04-04 08:34
I must admit that after nearly two decades of frequenting the bboard, certain posts still surprise me. This is one of those posts.
The original post seems similar to many other innocuous, historic posts on the bboard, yet the reaction was quite different than what I remember seeing.
Is the problem with the author's concluding statement? Quote:
Feedback is welcome if you want to give any!
Would the post have been treated differently without the concluding line?
Curious as to what nuance I'm missing.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-04-04 21:05
Fuzzy wrote: "Would the post have been treated differently without the concluding line?"
I don't think so.
As some of you already know, crvsp is a senior in H.S. He did quite a bit of posting during October of 2020. In his posting on 10/23/20 entitled "Advice on tone", http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=487138&t=487095, he ended his O.P. with "Any words of advice"? On this specific posting, he received a lot of valuable advice (MO). I would characterize what he received as being "thoughtful, encouraging advice".
I think Paul Aviles pretty much hit the proverbial nail "right on the head".
As an 18 or 19 year old, I believe he was seeking the same "thoughtful, encouraging advice" that he had received last October.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-04-05 01:25
I would like to add an apology for being a bit snarky and perhaps being the cause of some "strife." For the record, my wife (after being apprised of this controversy) said that the original response to the post was "really good advice."
It may also be worth noting that often things in print can come off sounding differently in tone than intended.
I hope we did not scare off too many future postings by other clarinetists willing to share.
Maybe if we could make this a regular feature, we would all have an easier time with the expectations and the wildly varying sorts of responses.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-04-05 02:45
Paul, I like you guy....however when you wrote: "It may also be worth noting that often things in print can come off sounding differently in tone than intended", I was more than just a little bit stunned.
Let's apply what you wrote to Liquorice's second response: "There you go. You got some (meaningless) feedback from a random person. You received the validation that you seeked but you didn't learn anything. Mission accomplished?"
Oh...my...gosh! From my point of view, his response was incredibly sarcastic and really came across to me as a "classic putdown".
For the record, crvsp never asked or specified to be taught anything. I know...I've read his O.P. several times.
Yes, I believe crvsp was simply looking for validation for a video he had posted on YouTube and "shared" on this forum. That's why his request for Feedback was so nonspecific.
I believe crvsp has been "burned" and "shamed". I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he's left this BB forum and never returns.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-04-05 02:51
Taking a step back (though hard to do I'm sure) the original exchange was merely Mr. Pickup's first and best gut reaction to the post. I wouldn't have taken that stance but the variety of responses we get around here is sorta the best thing we have going. And there is no way to know what response will have the biggest influence on whom.
At this point I don't want to be critical or supportive just...........hopeful.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-04-05 05:59
Please understand that I appreciate Liquorice's, Brycon's, Seabreeze's, Paul's, et al. responses to the original post very much. They were great answers.
It was simply the contrast (thanks, Dan, for the link to the previous post) with what I'm accustomed to seeing here on the bboard which confused me. My question was in earnest about what I might have missed.
Having said that, I appreciated crvsp's sharing of his video. In fact, many times I wish we had an area where we could hear examples of our co-bboard member's playing abilities....not for judging, but to better understand the foundation from which posts/advice are made/given. Context helps.
This bboard is made up almost entirely of "unknowns" giving/asking advice of other "unknowns." (This isn't a dig - but meant in the context that - with a few notable exceptions, we are musically unknown to one another.) How then, can we honestly interpret the advice given/received here?
Many posters/members have been isolated much more than usual during this past year, and are looking for connection/community. I personally welcome the shared links.
I've learned quite a lot from the few member posts where a player has shared a link, and others have responded. It has helped me to add context and better understand advice these responders have provided to other folks over the years, and helped me to hear examples of what they are hearing. At minimum, such shared links provide a break from the normal rotation of gear posts on the bboard.
To crvsp: Thanks for sharing the link. I didn't offer feedback of any type because my ears are no longer accustomed to echoey halls, and I don't play classical music much anymore. I enjoyed listening though.
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-04-05 18:09
If you follow the breadcrumbs, you can find his channel. There, he has posted some videos of performances that demonstrate that he is a serious, developing musician. (As a newer player, I am quite impressed.)
This board can be a quite intimidating one for those not in the perceived "inner circle" to feel a part of. It is sometimes hard to know whether newer -- or younger -- developing musicians are welcome.
Just saying.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-04-06 00:44
Thanks Dan, for linking crvsp's previous posting. There he asked about a specific problem, gave background about his own playing and what he had tried so far. That type of post seems more conducive to learning and elicited some useful responses.
My posts in this thread seem to have caused some confusion and drawn some criticism. I would like to clarify my position.
1. If somebody posts a link of their own playing on a forum like this, they are invariably seeking either validation or constructive feedback. That's fine.
2. crvsp wrote "Feedback is welcome" so I gave him some well-intentioned advice.
3. He rejected my advice. In my second post I tried to push him further to re-consider it. (Was the feedback from Paul really any use to him at all?). I still had good intentions but can see how my tone may have been misunderstood as being hasty.
At no point did I intend to be sarcastic, to put anybody down, or to burn or shame anyone. If crvsp really interpreted my comments as such then I apologise unreservedly.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-04-06 02:26
Liquorice,
If what you wrote above is absolutely true, then why did crvsp stop responding and then took down his video? I see a rather severe mismatch between your words written above and his actions.
Since he has no email address listed, it might be difficult to contact him directly to really find out how he interpreted your advice.
Your posting above, IMHO, should have been directed to him...not me.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-04-07 11:26
Dan- it‘s clear that my apology was directed towards crvsp and not towards you.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-04-07 19:58
Liquorice,
When you wrote: "If crvsp really interpreted my comments as such then I apologise unreservedly." In this sentence, crvsp is mentioned in the third person and, as such, you were still directing everything to me.
Had you wrote: "crvsp, if you really interpreted my comments as such then I apologise unreservedly."
Now, that would definitely be directed to crvsp.
I know that you don't owe me any apology.
I just got angry.
I believe it's crvsp that got hurt.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-04-07 20:24
I think it's clear to everyone who I was apologising to.
I think the rather severe mismatch is between the written words in this thread and your interpretation of them.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-04-07 20:38
Liquorice,
No, I know my interpretation is correct. Your non-direct apology is just the last sentence in your above response which is directly addressed to me at the beginning.
I do hope you clear things up with crvsp.
I will make no more responses to this thread.
Post Edited (2021-04-09 18:28)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-04-07 20:53
Lol! This place is a trip sometimes.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2021-04-08 08:01
brycon wrote:
> Lol! This place is a trip sometimes.
It is.
Thread closed. I'm tired of the merry-go-round.
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