 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2014-10-15 17:47
I went to my repair person yesterday and she showed me some kangaroo skin pads. She said that they are all the rage. ¿Has anyone tried them?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-15 18:21
I use them on saxes but haven't yet tried them on clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2014-10-15 19:55
We use them a lot in saxes but I use them in clarinets sparingly. There are certain times when these will fix a peculiar problem but they are too porous to use on every key.
Scott Brodt
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-15 20:08
they seal alot better on not so perfect toneholes. Use them on all my rebuilds and wouldn't use anything else with exception of cork on speaker key.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-15 22:21
I wouldn't think "kangaroo" pads are significantly different from any other leather (and given the massive population of kangaroos I'd think it should be cheaper), so if you prefer leather, it should be a viable option.
One note, Germans prefer leather and don't even understand why anyone would use cork or fish bladder covered felt.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-10-15 23:37
What other materials can be used for pads
Mouse pads?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: SpiritTalker
Date: 2014-10-16 00:29
I think you'd not get too much leather out of a mouse hide. lol They're rather small.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-16 00:36
No pads are or were ever made of fish skin or fish bladder, so please let's finally put this tired old myth to rest. And also the catgut myth while I'm at it.
It's sausage skin - made from the intestinal membrane of cattle, the same stuff used for making gut strings which were never made from feline intestines.
Kangaroo leather is much more dense in its structure and tighter grained compared to kid leather and is much harder wearing, hence motorcycle gear (or specific sections of motorcycle gear) being made from it as it's tougher than cow leather.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-10-16 00:51
First, we stock only the best fish double skin pads - Ferree Dejur pads
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-16 01:11
... that aren't made from fish skin.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-10-16 03:24
The repair tech I go to has used them on my A and Bb instruments, especially on the lower joints. I'm no expert on pads, but so far they seem to have lasted a long time without wearing out.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-10-16 04:49
I prefer using fish skin.
Good for scales.
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-10-16 19:39
I use them extensively. They seal well and last longer than other pads I've tried. Worth the little extra cost.
Tony F.
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Author: SpiritTalker
Date: 2014-10-16 20:25
I am thinking of ordering a set for an old clarinet I'm fixing up (project horn) and when ordering a set, it asks what brand...Selmer, Buffet, etc....the horn I have is vintage 20/30s Barbier....so what I'm wondering is which set I should get. I really don't want to measure and order them all individually, as ordering them as a set is much easier/cheaper/convenient. Do the pad sizes differ that greatly between the "main brands" and what does that mean for a brand not listed?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-16 20:38
You're best measuring the insides of all the pad cups and ordering each size you need instead of ordering a set for another make/model which may not have the correct sizes.
If you do order them as 'Other (Not Listed)', then give all the sizes you need in a separate message or email stating the order number and what make and model of clarinet they're for.
I did this for an SML Marigaux low A bari as they weren't listed and the Bis key pad needed a specific sized resonator for the size of pad due to the extra small tonehole and oversized pad cup they used.
http://musicmedic.com/mainpads/clarinet-pads/clarinet-pad-sets/roopad-for-clarinet-pad-sets/roopads-for-clarinet-pad-sets.html
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-10-16 20:54
I started with Roo pads by redoing my Selmer 9 with them (except for cork on the speaker tube). I found them very easy to install and level (I use hot glue) and really like the way they respond in use. Unless/until something happens to change my mind, I plan to continue using them on my regular players.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-17 17:55
Chris P wrote:
> Kangaroo leather is much more dense in its structure and tighter grained
> compared to kid leather and is much harder wearing, hence motorcycle gear
> (or specific sections of motorcycle gear) being made from it as it's tougher
> than cow leather.
it is also waterproof and it seals slightly better then cork.
On downside is softer and needs more adjustment on installation. It is also sticker so cork works better on speaker vent.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-17 20:30
Kangaroo leather seals slightly better than cork? I can't find any other kind of pad made from a natural substance that seals better than cork, provided the toneholes are made perfect for them to seat against. Leather pads will conform better to uneven or slightly imperfect toneholes, but top quality cork pads are far more airtight than leather.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-18 02:54
Yes it is. Such an ingrained myth that everyone believes it.
Thomann aren't woodwind specialists - they sell everything, so that says it all.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-18 13:17
>> Kangaroo leather seals slightly better than cork? <<
You're right (Chris). Not according to the test I just did, using a magnehelic, rubber plugs and smoothly finished plastic "tone hole". A cork pad sealed better than a kangaroo leather pad.
Post Edited (2014-10-18 13:18)
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Author: 2E
Date: 2014-10-19 03:13
My bass clarinet has almost all kangaroo pads. They work great.
I think the 'fish skin' pad thing is just be what they're called, so everyone believes they're made of that material even if they're not.
Are bluetooth devices made of actual blue teeth? Of course not, it's just called that.
The fish skin pad rumour has been spread around so much now, people think that's what it's made of because they're not all repairs techs so don't know any better.
Also, loving the 'scales' 'tuna' 'large leaps' puns - we ride kangaroos everyday here in 'straya.
2E
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Author: SpiritTalker
Date: 2014-10-20 18:53
People who are named Joey are naturally suited to play clarinets decked out in kangaroo pads. Or, so I've heard.
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Author: SpiritTalker
Date: 2014-10-20 18:57
I am going to order them for a project horn I'm working on. When I measure the inside diameter of the keycups, do I add anything to get the measurement I need? I know it can differ between leather and bladder types, and one website says to add 1.5mm. It's a little confusing so before I order them I'd love for a definitive answer.
For instance...if the inside of the keycup measures 9mm, I need a __?__ mm kangaroo pad for that key.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-20 19:08
Leather pads are generally the same diameter as the insides of the pad cups as they fit into them, so a pad cup with an inside diameter of 9mm will take a 9mm pad.
Skin pads have a shoulder and are measured at their widest point, so you have to order them around 1mm larger than the inside diameter of the pad cup, so a pad cup with an inside diameter of 9mm will take a 10mm skin pad.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SpiritTalker
Date: 2014-10-20 20:37
Thanks for the clear info; it helps very much! One more thing...which thickness would you suggest? They come in 3 thicknesses...I'm repadding an F. Barbier...if that matters.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-20 21:08
I just checked eight different models of pads on a mag machine and also a couple of other materials.
Using an optimal and level plastic tone hole, there was only one pad that no matter how much pressure I put on it, remained at 0.5 on the mag. That was the kangaroo leather pad. That said, I don't know if being made of kangaroo leather has anything to do with it. I think all other leather pads I've checked have treated leather, while this one doesn't, which is likely the reason for the difference.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-10-22 00:21
I do not have the equipment to actually measure the quality of seal on the Roo pads on my Selmer 9. However, I do get a quite acceptable suction/pop test on both joints. It was a NOS/demo instrument when I got it, but I like the way it plays since I worked it over much, much better (I liked it before, now I love it.). Yes, I did more tweaking than just replacing the pads. Clearly, it had been sitting in a back room for many years. I got it from a store that went out of business when the economy tanked. It was probably put back when the case zipper got damaged.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-10-22 03:02
Clarnibass wrote:
>Using an optimal and level plastic tone hole, there was only one pad that no >matter how much pressure I put on it, remained at 0.5 on the mag.
Please explain. The other pad types went to zero when you pressed harder? Some leakage is desirable?
0.5 on a single hole is quite high. One of my clarinets scores 0.3 for the upper joint (only cork) and 1.0 for the lower (cork and fish skin). My MAG is from JL Smith. Are the units different?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-22 09:43
>> 0.5 on a single hole is quite high. One of my clarinets scores 0.3 for the upper joint (only cork) and 1.0 for the lower (cork and fish skin). My MAG is from JL Smith. Are the units different? <<
Mine is not from Smith but that doesn't matter. A small difference in the way it's set up can change how much force is needed to seal against the pressure.
My specific measurements are for comparison with themsevles, not so much with other mag machine tests. I could turn the machine up or down and get a different measurement using the same pad and amount of force.
>> Please explain. The other pad types went to zero when you pressed harder? Some leakage is desirable? <<
I tested a few pads and materials, leather, bladder, cork, synthetic and more than one model of each pad material. All pads other than the kangaroo leather pad got to 0 with approx "normal" amount of force. They varied slightly with amount of force needed, probably because of levelness and/or firmness of the pad/material, but none required pressing very hard to get to 0.
Using the same "normal" force, the kangaroo leather pad got to 0.5 and then remained there no matter how much harder I pressed. This showed that it leaked through the leather itself.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-22 14:01
So if a single kangaroo skin pad reads 0.5, then an entire top joint may read 5 on a mag machine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-22 15:07
carnibass wrote:
>> Kangaroo leather seals slightly better than cork? <<
> You're right (Chris). Not according to the test I just did, using a magnehelic,
> rubber plugs and smoothly finished plastic "tone hole". A cork pad sealed
> better than a kangaroo leather pad.
cyclopathic wrote:
> they seal alot better on not so perfect toneholes. Use them on all my
> rebuilds and wouldn't use anything else with exception of cork on
> speaker key.
use kengaroo or you can spend time refinishing dinged toneholes for cork, but then your rebuild will be half-fast..
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-22 17:18
If I didn't refinish imperfect toneholes, then I wouldn't be doing my job properly on an overhaul - it's one thing to put up with what's in front of you, but it's another thing to put those wrongs right.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dori
Date: 2014-10-22 21:37
I told my son about this thread. He wanted to know if mouse pads would cause the instrument to squeak. (This is coming from a tuba player. <g>)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-10-23 00:31
I have a few lower joints with kangaroo and cork and they score between 2 and 3 on the MAG.
The units are meant to represent inches of water. I interpret that as an air pressure loss, so it should be convertable to Pa(scal). Can the values be compered between different types of MAGs? The calibration procedure for the JL Smith MAG is described here (pdf):
http://www.jlsmithco.com/site/flute_product_instructions/MAG_Machine_Instructions.pdf
Fish skin pads do seem to seal a little better but they also have larger diameter for the same key. The leather pad has to fit inside the cup, so you have to use a 0,5 mm smaller diameter.
When I press harder on the kangaroo pads the MAG shows a lower value.
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-10-23 00:35
"Fish skin pads do seem to seal a little better "
Now we are talking about seal pads?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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