 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2014-08-23 19:05
I can't speak to gluing clarinets, but I apprenticed as a gilder and picture frame restorer.
Hide (or rabbit skin, or fish glue) made from scratch is truly an advanced substance. That's why they have been using it since the time of the pharos. It's strong, easy to use, customizable, easy to sand, has a good open time, is virtually invisible, and reversible. By keeping it hot you can make even strong glue flow like it's thin. Clean up is easy. Shellac made from scratch is similarly wonderful. Hide glue will last thousands of years. Both are non-toxic.
Sometimes modern materials do not work as well, and then create a mess that is nearly impossible to get rid of. They may seem "simpler" because they come in a tube, but in practice they are often harder to work with.
I wonder if hide glue would eventually fail in someplace with a lot of moisture, like a barrel? Covering it with shellac like you did would seal it. You could fill a very small crack with shellac alone.
You can't let the glue boil, and can't keep one batch for very long (like a week). Keep it in the refrigerator and pitch it when it smells bad. Keep the shellac flakes in the freezer. You can get all colors of shellac from clear to blond to dark brown. with a couple shades you can mix to match the wood.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-23 19:46
The only glue I'd ever use for filling in holes and cracks on clarinets is superglue (and powdered grenadilla).
Hide glue has its place - and that's on stringed instruments and not woodwinds.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-23 21:53
The famous stringed instrument repairman William Monical explained it to me this way:
Stringed instruments need attention at least twice a year. The thin wood parts shrink and swell with the seasons. The seams open up, and the wood can crack.
Rabbit hide glue is universally used in stringed instruments because it is NOT too strong. If the parts are attached with strong glue, the wood cracks. A violin made with epoxy would tear itself apart.
Hide glue is strong enough to hold everything together, but weak enough to give way when the parts "work." That's why every luthier's workbench has a pot of hot, smelly, messy hide glue.
Grenadilla, which is stable over the seasons, and which is used in instruments with thick walls, needs strong glue to fix cracks -- typically epoxy mixed with grenadilla dust to make it the same color as the instrument.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-24 20:25
Why would I want to use stinky animal glue anyway? The smell of that stuff boiling away is repulsive. Even wet dogs smell better which is saying something.
I'm not prepared to give it a try as you have to heat up the wood to be sure the hide glue adheres to it which is pretty much impossible with cracks in woodwinds - superglue will wick into very fine cracks and bond to the surfaces.
I've used superglue for decades with success, so there's absolutely no reason for me to ever consider hide glue. If I was a stringed instrument repairer then I'd use it, but I'm not so I won't.
End of subject.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-08-24 20:29
Without question, the ancients used hide glue to make musical instruments, and also without doubt a good case can be made that it is the best glue for some specific aspects of the craft. I'd suggest that the main reason for this is that it is all that was available to them. If they'd had access to cyanoacrylate and epoxy adhesives then, do you think that they would have persevered with hide glue, or would they have used other more suitable adhesives where appropriate?
For what it's worth, I have used hide glue in traditional woodwork projects and furniture restorations, but except for where historical accuracy is the first consideration it would not be my first choice in most cases if other choices were available. yes, cyanoacrylate glue hardens in the tube and becomes landfill, but as the quantities involved are very small I don't regard that as a major ecological sin.
You are perfectly entitled to use whatever adhesive you choose, but do not dismiss my views because I choose to differ from you on this matter. I've had no glue failures either. A friend had the headstock of his traditionally constructed lute break away from the neck at a hide glue joint on a particularly hot day. The joint was successfully remade with wood peg reinforcement, but if it had been an epoxy joint it would probably not have failed.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-25 01:48
The carbon fibre bands and superglue/wood dust fillers have stood the test of time - it was well over a year ago when I did the DG Prestige which came to me for a service earlier this month and nothing has changed from what I can see. Likewise with older repairs going back more years and also decades done with these two ingredients (superglue and wood dust) or crack repairs with just superglue alone.
But enough talk, let's see what hide glue repairs look like.
I've shown you mine (with all dignity intact), so now you have to show us yours.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-08-26 21:37
Are you familiar with this product or anything similar?
http://luthierssupplies.com.au/index.php?cPath=96
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-06 02:11
I can't understand why you'd want a crack repair to be reversible on any woodwind instrument. If the repair is a success and lasts for the rest of the instrument's life, then why would you want to muck around with it?
Some cosmetic repairs have a lot to be desired such as flush banding or pinning leaving the ends of the pins showing, but they can be tidied up by milling slots so the ends of the pins can be hidden with superglue and wood dust, or flush bands can be removed and carbon fibre bands fitted in place which are then hidden with superglue and wood dust to match the rest of the joint, only some cases the logos have often been cut through (ie. Selmers) which is a shame.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-09-06 02:50
@Chris
how do you get superglue/dust finish to blend better with wood? My attempts make it look too shiny :(
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-06 04:16
You can lightly scratch it up with coarse abrasive paper or lightly running a wire brush over it following the grain to go some way of disguising it, then polish it up lightly to blend it into the surroundings.
But you'll never truly hide a surface repair on a clarinet as the line of glue will always show to some degree. Some will take more looking than others to spot, but as long as they're not conspicuous under natural or average lighting conditions is best in my books.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-09-06 08:26
The superglue is alot harder than wood and sanding is highlighting it, making it shinier. I seem to get better result from filing it with needle file and keeping sanding to minimum. And then oiling would hide it, but eventually it will show through again.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-08 00:18
Is simply glueing a crack with hide glue more structurally sound than carbon fibre banding?
No.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-08 00:54
If I do a crack repair, I expect it to be permanent and not something that ever needs to be reversed - I can't see any reason to reverse what has been a successful crack repair.
Considering the relatively young age of clarinets that come to me that have cracked, there's no real historic value in them or any other reason to preserve the instrument in near original condition as near to original condition is a cracked instrument that's not been repaired - even replacing the joint with a new one is no longer preserving anything as it's no longer original condition.
Structural repairs should be stronger than the rest of the structure so they last, not weaker than the surrounding structure and have to be replaced when they fail. Should the rest of the structure crumble around the repair, then that shows exactly how successful the repair is and how bad the actual structure is.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-08 08:22
Attachment: carbon_banded_ct_bell 003.JPG (155k)
Attachment: carbon_banded_ct_bell 004.JPG (161k)
I fitted carbon fibre bands to a Selmer CT bell at its most vulnerable area - the socket. Considering how thin the wood is here the bands were put in fairly shallow. With just glue alone, the bell would split with any undue force from within (without the socket ring fitted), but after banding around the socket and immediately below, forcing a mallet handle inside and giving it a hefty whack which would split an otherwise unreinforced bell had no effect on this bell once it had been banded, so structural integrity is far greater after banding than it would have been before.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-09-08 11:25
I do not have enough experience repairing cracks to venture an opinion as to which glue is best to repair a crack in a clarinet. However, I do have a problem with any automatic assumption that the method that has been used for the longest period of time has to be the best.
When I started driving, tire technology had undergone many changes from the time Charles Goodyear wrapped a natural rubber tube around the wheel of his son's bicycle. We could reasonably expect to get 30,000 miles of wear out of a tire if it were maintained and handled carefully. I would venture to say that a tire getting only 30,000 miles of wear today would be laughed out of the market when compared to ones that easily get 100,000 miles or more for roughly the same relative cost.
Which glue is best for repairing your clarinet? I don't know. However, I refuse to jump to a conclusion on which one it is simply based on how long it has been in use.
Why not simply agree to disagree on this subject and let go of it?
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-09-08 12:14
To: David Powell and Chris P,
My thanks to both of you for this extremely informative thread. I certainly learned a lot. Both of you eloquently presented exhaustive, very thorough, and detailed dissertations about the types of glue used and the repairing methods you both individually employ.
As to which is best, IMHO, I believe that summation is best left up to each individual reader.
I believe one of the important aspects of this BB is to educate and not to determine or prove who is right and who is wrong. It appears to me that both methods have their merits and their drawbacks.
I believe that those who have been keeping a very close track of this thread have come away with an enhanced appreciation and deepened respect for two highly trained, educated, and very experienced repairmen who, IMO, certainly know what they are doing.
Thanks again.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-09-08 16:15
Aside from the technicalities involved is the beauty of the work both men accomplish.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-08 16:53
What I prefer to do with any kind of repair is to make it as well hidden under normal lighting conditions as possible on grenadilla instruments (more difficult to achieve on kingwood, cocobolo, rosewood or other lighter coloured wooden bodied instruments) as I personally don't like seeing glaring evidence of repairs whether that be pinning screw ends showing or carbon fibre bands showing on the surface of the joints - my pet hate is metal flush bands as I find them particularly ugly on any instrument.
As for fibre banding of any kind, the most extensive and traditional use of fibre banding can be seen on shakuhachis - usually rattan binding inlaid into grooves cut into the bamboo and flush with the surface, or lacquered thread or string binding on the surface itself leaving raised rings in between the fingerholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-09-09 01:12
Chris I really admire your work. I've put some "bands" on bamboo but I'm not as "fussy" as you are. I simply use cotton twine until it's raised above the surface and then "set" it with Elmer's glue. Very effective if not beautiful. IMO bamboo is the most amazing material created by Nature.
Bob Draznik
Post Edited (2014-09-09 01:13)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-09 17:52
It would be good if someone could genetically modify or splice the DNA of both bamboo and grenadilla to grow natural tube high tensile strength and high density grenadilla with a perfectly straight grain and the bore undersized so all that needs doing is removing the nodes, then turning the outside and reaming the bore of each straight section to get joints and barrels from. The root end if it's wide enough could also be turned into bells. Extra length and wide diameter sections can become alto, basset horn, bass and contra (EEb and BBb) clarinet joints.
I wonder if anyone has experimented using bamboo to make bassoon long joints? There is bamboo that grows to a fairly wide diameter and the tenons may be stronger than maple.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-09-09 19:56
I have seen bikes made of bamboo. Quite a fascinating material.
It would be more logical, however, if we took Arundo Donax in order to make flutes or clarinets...
--
Ben
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Author: GaryH
Date: 2014-09-10 08:58
Thirty years ago I worked in a shop that occasionally used hide glue mixed with wood dust to finish out holes left from pinning cracks in clarinets and oboes. Sometime after that we learned to use superglue and wood dust and never looked back. I don't care what someone else does, but for me, hide glue has no place in woodwind repair work.
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