 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: William
Date: 2014-06-29 20:06
I've spent countless hours in practice rooms of all sorts, but I think I am at my "best" when actually performing. This not only is true for playing music, but in my favorite sport of curling. I usually win the first game of each season and make all of my shots, like playing a concert with relative perfection--noting that no one ever plays anything absolutely "perfect". I even hate when there is a scheduled "warm-up" because it takes the edge from the ensuing presentation. Often, in the practice room, is where I make most of my mistakes and technical "blunders" and maybe it is the lack of urgency to play it "right' the first time. Maybe that is what they mean by "focused" practice.....LOL. I just find it's easier to focus when on stage under the lights. Others will probably disagree....but that's ok since discussion is what this site is all about.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-29 23:01
Very insightful observation about the "lack of urgency." I find this to be a function of "personality." I knew a clarinetist of similar ilk. He could literally sight read anything (and I really mean ANYTHING), but when it came time to perform the piece (which included at least two rehearsals) he was so bored with it by then that he fumbled quite noticeably throughout.
I agree with Pearlman's statement "things we learn slowly, we forget slowly," in the most literal term. True S-L-O-W practice where you get it right (perfect rhythm, perfect relationships of dynamics, ALL the notes ALL the time) is key to really learning. Once you've LEARNED the passage, turning it up a notch or to full speed becomes only a matter of degree.
And the idea of playing a passage over and over has it's flaw at the most rudimentary level. If you are not playing it slow enough, if you are not getting it quite right, and you are listening to it over and over like that, you only reinforce the "wrong way" to do it. Naturally it will fail in performance or in a lesson.
BUT....... if you mean taking your sweet time to learn something is better by virtue of sheer time (days, weeks, months), the next guy will win the audition.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: MGT91123
Date: 2014-06-30 00:18
very interesting. I second Paul's opinion and the fact. Practice slowly. After all, the tortoise won the race.
MG
Buffet E-11
Buffet Moening Barrel, 65 mm, Backun Protege 65mm
Vadoren BD5 Mouthpiece
Vandoren M/O series gold Lig.
Gonzala's FOF Reeds 2.5
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-06-30 01:49
Our memory centers do not discriminate - they will learn whatever we present to them. Make repeated mistakes in practicing? The hippocampus learns that as quickly and easily as when we perform it correctly.
That's reason enough to learn something slowly and perfectly. IOW, perfect practice makes perfect, and imperfect practi . . . . . well, you know.
bruno>
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-06-30 02:31
I don't know what the context was for Perlman's statement, but I don't think the point of this summary of Make It Stick is to recommend practicing s-l-o-w-l-y or fast or any other tempo in particular. Dr. Kageyama's main argument as he takes it from the book is that effective practice often takes a longer time to produce results.
"We tend to gravitate to practice strategies that maximize the appearance of mastery in the short term. ...Yet, the strategies that research has found to maximize durable and flexible learning and true mastery in the long term often don’t provide us with the same instant gratification and rapid gains in practice. Instead, they may frustrate us, appear to slow down our progress, and make us feel like we’re not “getting” it as quickly (italics mine)." This description is then followed with Perlman's quotation, whatever Perlman meant by it at the time he said it..
I don't want to denigrate the possible effectiveness of practicing at a tempo slow enough to be able to play the material perfectly - especially over a period of days or weeks (which is more related to Dr. Kageyama's blog article). We've been down that road before here, and, Aesop's tortoise notwithstanding, there has been disagreement about it, at least as a universal approach to practicing everything we find difficult or awkward.
But, respectfully, I think the discussion in this thread of the article Bruno cited (and the book it summarizes) has, by my reading, gone off in a wrong direction. His "Three key principles of effective learning" aren't new but seem worth discussing and, as I read them, they have little or nothing to do with the tempo at which you practice the hard passages.
Karl
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-06-30 02:45
"Practice makes perfect" True or False ?
FALSE
"Correct practice , if repeated often enough makes perfect"
TRUE
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Author: EBC
Date: 2014-06-30 05:38
I second Karl's thoughts on the matter. Kageyama's "Why the Progress in the Practice Room Seems to Disappear Overnight" is another extremely helpful article along similar lines (cited in the article under discussion, in fact). It can be found at: http://www.bulletproofmusician.com/why-the-progress-in-the-practice-room-seems-to-disappear-overnight/.
Eric
PS: Actually, EVERY article cited in the OP's suggested read is quite useful.
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-06-30 08:22
Great article! I find it very true with my own experiences. My band director always says "work smart not hard" especially during marching band season. Although we may practice less than the other bands we do just as well if not better because we utilize our time in a smart efficient way. Usually.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-30 22:33
Funnily enough, I think that one of the main mistakes I encounter on this BBoard is this notion that if you allow yourself to do something imperfectly, you spoil possible ultimate perfection.
As in, above:
>> Make repeated mistakes in practicing? The hippocampus learns that as quickly and easily as when we perform it correctly. >>
I don't know about my hippocampus; but if _I_ practise, make mistakes, NOTICE my mistakes, and then repeat, I find that I get better.
The notion that we may profitably put ourselves in situations in which we perform imperfectly, whilst being aware of those imperfections, is one that resonates with my own experience.
For example, I have sometimes performed to my students – something I find challenging:-)
I once played the Berio Sequenza from memory to an Italian class on a course that I'd been teaching for a few days, because I felt that it would be an important tryout for playing it in London a couple of weeks later in a 'Sequenza marathon' in Berio's presence.
And it did help – even though I played it imperfectly to them – because I learned something important about how it was likely to go wrong under stress, I suppose.
Anyway, I found this article posted by Bruno to be a sensible distillation of these related ideas, and I'll find it useful to think of the distillation when I practise in the future.
As others have remarked, in a way it argues AGAINST the notion of 'slow' and therefore 'enforcedly perfect' practice as the ONLY road to excellence.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-30 23:43
I deliberately didn't say this bit in my previous post; but I decided to say it now.
The point about 'aware' practice is not that it is dedicated to 'perfection'.
It is rather dedicated to making a correlation between what we do, and what the result is.
In that scenario, we learn something from an action that leads to an UNdesired result.
Furthermore, it may well be that 'perfection' is not determined as an absolute. It may well be that a result that is perfect in one context is not perfect in another.
And vice-versa.
I well remember a conversation I had with an American critic in Venice, at dinner after a performance at La Fenice. We were speaking of a particular recording by a British orchestra, that he thought wasn't any good.
"Well," I said, "I thought that it captured the spirit of the piece rather well."
"Oh, you British," he said. "You just don't understand that incompetence is a deal-breaker. So when you listen to American orchestras, you just can't stand ALL THAT PERFECTION."
(And I can't:-)
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-07-01 00:32
I wouldn't say "all that perfection," rather it's more accurate to say, sterility.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-07-01 17:15
It's certainly true that you can learn from making mistakes. Otherwise nobody could ever get good at something like archery for example. You can't shoot an arrow slowly and perfectly.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-07-01 17:49
Evidently you can learn more from not having the same goal in practice. If the archer changes up his practice by not always trying to hit the bulls eye this equates to the basketball player who varies his shooting range in practice. This resulted it better shooting results from the foul line. Maybe as musicians we should be altering the note choices during practice. The intentional wrong note might be good. Save the right notes for the performance. I would suggest no more than one intentional wrong note per line in practice. This is tongue in cheek but it is getting closer to sight transposition. (all the wrong notes)
I know a high level archer and will question him on this.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-07-01 23:18
Theories, schmeries - I know one thing; if I want to learn a musical phrase I cannot learn it at tempo. I play it funereally slow again and again until it's perfect in all regards and I can speed it up a bit, listening carefully all the while to make note switches and jumps seamless and fingering the best it can be.
The next time I attempt it it's smoother and easier. Is that okay, Mister Menuhin?
Itzhak . . . .
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2014-07-02 20:51
Dibbs wrote: "You can't shoot an arrow slowly and perfectly."
I beg to differ. You can if you allow for speed, distance, and gravity (aim higher). "slowly" and "perfectly" are relative terms anyhow.
CarlT
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-07-03 00:58
Generalizations that include completely different and unrelated activities as proof that a concept is erroneous are seldom if ever valid. They sound clever but don't stand up to analysis.
bruno>
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-07-03 04:44
CarlT wrote: ''..."slowly" and "perfectly" are relative terms anyhow.''
I was taught in school that ''perfect/perfectly'' is an absolute term.
''Slowly'' is relative to the work or action being undertaken, but ''perfectly'' has no qualifiers - there are no degrees of perfection.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-07-03 04:57
ned wrote:
> I was taught in school that ''perfect/perfectly'' is an
> absolute term.
Even "perfect" needs context.
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2014-07-30 06:24
Difference between an amateur and a pro?
Amateur practices until he plays it right
The pro practices it until he never plays it wrong
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