 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ravi2000
Date: 2014-01-10 02:54
So, I'm 13, but I've been playing clarinet for 5 years now. I'm at a very high level with my skill, recently I've started pieces like Rhapsody and Blue (Nailed the gliss) and Flight of The Bumblebee. Soon, I will be auditioning for All South Jersey Band, playing Mozart's Menuet. Here's my problem:
I've been practicing the piece for a few weeks now in small portions, and I've now completed the entire piece. All I need to do now is put it all together...
BAM. Huge problem. Right in my face. So, before, when I learned it in portions, I was fine, when I tried to put the entire piece together, a good 5 minutes long, about 2 and a half minutes into the song, my jaw just quite literally stopped working. I lost feeling, and couldn't tighten my jaw around the mouthpiece. I slowly had felt the pain in the corners of my mouth as the song progressed, but I didn't think it would reach a point where I couldn't play.
If it'll help determine what's causing the pain, recently I started playing soprano saxophone, and I came to find the same pain I experience after playing clarinet for three minutes comes when I play soprano sax for maybe 30 seconds.
I use a 2 3/4 legere right now. Would a harder reed help? If not, what can I do? I tighten and point my jaw like a madman when I play, but that's the only way to get out higher notes for me. Suggestions?
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2014-01-10 03:07
I guess I should ask how long are you practicing in one time period. I've found through many years of experience that resting is a part of practicing. Honestly, I can't go past 2 hours at a time of practice. If you feel like practicing longer than that, take a break for about the same amount of time you practiced (I found that a good rule of thumb). If only after a short amount of time you feel pain, stop immediately! You should probably have a physician check it out.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-10 04:24
Playing the clarinet should NOT be causing pain under any circumstances, and certainly not within a few minutes.
Seeking some medical advice is a good idea.
I would say that your description of pointing your chin sounds like there has always been too much stress. You are ONLY trying to provide support AROUND the mouthpiece with your musculature. What I have seen of some people thinking of pointing their chin (of course this is without seeing YOU) is usually wrong and goes hand in hand with trying to produce some sort of 'smiling' embouchure which is also WAY wrong and only counter productive.
But I also assume that since you've been playing for a while and have had some success you must already know this?
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ravi2000
Date: 2014-01-10 04:38
Let me repeat part of that. When I said, "pain", I didn't exactly mean go see a physician pain. I meant, like, my jaw clenches tight, and I've noticed that whenever it happens, air starts to leak in the space between my upper lip and the top of the mouthpiece. It creates a raspberry sound, and soonafter is when my jaw completely loosens. It's not like, I can't move my jaw, it's just something where i stretch my jaw for a few minutes and continue playing.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-01-09 23:55
It sounds to me that you may be using too hard of a reed. The air escaping at the top of the mouthpiece sounds like what would happen when I would force myself to play on too hard oboe reeds for too long.I couldn't even touch my lips to the reed because of intense fatigue. Just a thought as I can't see you play in person.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Ravi2000
Date: 2014-01-10 05:27
Here, I've found a way to explain it. While making myself look like an idiot in the process.
Smile. And I do mean smile. The biggest, cheesiest grin you can make. Now. Close your mouth and hold that position. Hold it for a while. At some point, you'll start to feel pain, and if you go long enough, your cheeks will start to loosen and automatically pull itself out of that position. That's exactly what happens when I play. And it couldn't be the reed, and I can't lower my reed number anymore. I just went up to 2 1/2 on a cane and I'm about to move up farther. I tried a 3 and was really happy with it. So it couldn't be the reed. I just need embouchure help now.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2014-01-10 05:41
I have a feeling that you're using too much pressure around the mouthpiece. If you think of the embouchure's primary job as creating a suction around the mouthpiece, this might help.
What pitch do you get if you play just the mouthpiece? (no barrel)
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-10 01:48
It is fatigue, plain and simple. You are abusing your embouchure muscles and they are warning you to rest. Somehow I think you already know this.
B.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-10 02:58
OK, rather than "smile," what you need to do is engage your cheek muscles (buccinators). The same muscles that you feel if your trying to get a really thick shake through a straw (only blowing out of course). This way, you are bringing the corners of your mouth IN against the sides of the mouthpiece.
You also must engage your UPPER LIP muscles as well, drawing down upon the top of the mouthpiece. But I don't want you to think stress, you already seem to be using WAY TOO MUCH tension as it is.
I would go as far as to say that the embouchure is only a platform, and it is not THAT important. Well, at least not nearly as important as making sure that your air column is focused. The only real effort while playing is with engaging your core (the abdominal muscles) as you actively push air out. The faster your air is moving at the tip of the mouthpiece/reed system, the bigger your sound will be. The embouchure remains fairly inert (certainly below conscious changes).
Just relax !!!!!
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-01-10 03:01
I agree with Bruno. Fatigue is your problem.
The fact that you have been playing for 5 years without problems means that you will have developed the muscles necessary for a firm embouchure, so that in itself is probably not the problem. I'd be inclined to suspect that this may be stress-related. You're preparing to audition for a position that is obviously important to you, and this imposes pressures that are not normally present. As to how you deal with it, I can't really help you with that. Discuss it with your teacher, they will probably have seen it before. Sometimes just being aware of the cause of a problem is all that is needed to resolve it.
All this presupposes that you have not made any recent changes in your equipment. If you have, then the changes may be relevant to the problem.
I think that going to a harder reed at this time would be counter-productive. It will just add to the embouchure problems you're experiencing. Resolve this problem first and then experiment with a harder reed.
Tony F.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2014-01-10 08:10
3rd vote for Bruno. Fatigue. I, like many here, have been playing for a lot longer than 5 years at a very high level and on a really testy day or after a long rehearsal this can happen to me. It's no problem but it requires you to rest in the short term and work on the muscles governing the embouchure in the long term.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-01-10 21:19
You've received some good advice. Ravi, you seem to be describing the old "smile" embouchure, the embouchure I was taught back in the 60s. There are still some people who play that way, and if it works for you, fine. Paul describes a different approach, one that I think works much better. Even though my own embouchure isn't exactly like it, it's much closer to Paul's than the old tight-smile method.
Please keep in mind that there's no great benefit to "moving up" to harder reeds just for the sake of moving up to harder reeds. Some mouthpieces work better with harder reeds, and others work better with softer ones. Sometimes it takes a little trial and error to find a reed that works well with a mouthpiece.
Everyone has his/her own reed and mouthpiece preferences. I like a moderate strength thick-blank reed with a fairly closed mouthpiece. I have a student who used a similar setup for a while, and she had problems similar to yours. After trying a bunch of mouthpieces, she's getting great results with a Vandoren B-45 and traditional Vandoren 2 1/2 reeds. After struggling with embouchure issues for a long time, this new combination works perfectly for her. It isn't a combination I would personally use, but if it works well for others, why not?
Post Edited (2014-01-11 04:02)
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Author: Ravi2000
Date: 2014-01-11 21:30
Alright, so fatigue is definitely a possibility. This week, I'm planning on heading to Sam Ash and trying out all of the suggestions on here. I plan on buying harder reeds, softer reeds, testing some mouthpieces AND clarinets. Because I don't think I mentioned the fact that I've not only been using the same Beginner Selmer for the past 5 years, but also I'm using a 100$ Rico Reserve Mouthpiece. (Genius, right?)
Any other suggestions on what I should try while I'm there?
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Author: Ravi2000
Date: 2014-01-11 21:35
I would expect this to happen. But it's happening way too quickly. I took out my clarinet to practice for the FIRST time today, and went straight into the piece.
3 minutes, I was done. That same pain all in front of my lower row of teeth came back again. I rested for a good 15 minutes, went back, and tried again. Same thing. I'm going to try finding the original student mouthpiece the instrument came with five years ago and trying it on that. Maybe that'll help..?
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-01-11 22:25
I would strongly suggest you find a competent teacher that can diagnose what the problem really is. I do not mean your band director, unless his/her principal instrument is clarinet.
Everyone who has given you suggestions so far is only guessing, because they have not seen you play in person.
This sounds to me (and I, too, am guessing, although I may have more teaching experience than other posters here) like it could be a serious problem that could cause physical damage if not addressed properly.
You most likely will not solve it by experimenting with a different set-up. A trip to the dentist may be in order.
Have you discussed this with your parents? If not, you should, as soon as possible.
Post Edited (2014-01-11 17:44)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2014-01-13 03:06
>>And it couldn't be the reed, and I can't lower my reed number anymore. I just went up to 2 1/2 on a cane and I'm about to move up farther. I tried a 3 and was really happy with it. So it couldn't be the reed. I just need embouchure help now. <<
Well, that sounds a bit unlogic to me.
Why couldn't it be the reed? Why can't you lower your reed strength?
Is it because of intonation or tone?
Then try to find a different mouthpiece/reed combination that makes life more easy for you. Or try a shorter barrel to get up to pitch with less effort.
So, I also think it is fatigue.
Probably caused by your recent step up to a stronger reed.
Of course I am also guessing, you really should go to a good teacher.
You are 13, don't force things. When I was 13 (many, many years ago) I definitely didn't have the muscular strength and condition that I have now.
Be careful with your body and never forget: clarinet playing should be fun!
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Author: Ravi2000
Date: 2014-01-13 03:20
UPDATE
So, I went to my local music store today and brought every size reed from 1.5 to 4. I came home and tested out the Menuet on every size reed.
So, it partly was the reed. As I went up to the 4, the amount of time I could spend playing the piece decreased. Then I went all the way down to the 1.5, and with great effort, I made it through the whole piece. Now another problem has risen, and I'm starting a new thread.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-01-12 23:09
I agree with what rmk54 says above. I would not just try to self diagnose unless you want to risk problems.
My other thoughts- you may be playing a mouthpiece that is too open and hard to control. I would also suggest taking a day off to see how you feel when you have a good rest.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2014-01-13 00:09
Sorry for the late relpy,
Hitting a D on your mouthpiece alone, in my opinion, is much too high, and sounds like you are using a lot of embouchure pressure to play, which would cause fatigue. Aim for a C. This will take some work, but think of the pressure coming down from the top of the mouthpiece, rather than the bottom.
edit to add: Unless you are talking about written D on a clarinet, which sounds a concert C....Then you would be fine. The pitches in which I'm referring are in concert pitch.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
Post Edited (2014-01-14 03:50)
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-01-13 12:13
Hitting a D on your mouthpiece alone, in my opinion, is much too high, and sounds like you are using a lot of embouchure pressure to play, which would cause fatigue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This may be your opinion, but all teachers I ever studied with (including Kal Opperman and Leon Russianoff) specified D (concert C above the staff).
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Author: Ravi2000
Date: 2014-01-14 06:27
Now I just feel genuinely stupid. Maybe I was just having a bad day or something.
I haven't played at all today. I just put on the #3 reed that I'm used to and went straight into the piece and made it through the whole thing. Which makes me REALLY happy.
Even so, I still felt a little bit of pain towards the end of the song. The song is a good five minutes long, is that tiny ache towards the end a problem? I plan on working on it anyway, but is it of high importance?
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