 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2013-12-05 01:12
I recently bought a 50s Selmer online for about $600. I put another $200 into some key swedging, cork replacement and one pad that was shot and it plays great.
A few months into owning it the top joint cracked. I had it repaired (glued) and after a few weeks it opened up again. Repaired again, it opened up again. The tech gave it one more shot and it's just opened up again. He said I'd have to take it somewhere that can pin it if I wanna give it another shot now.
I probably didn't properly acclimatise the clarinet when it arrived and wasn't super gentle breaking it in (I played for 10 minutes the first day and added 10 minutes per day until I was at a few hours per day.) Since it cracked I've been diligent to keep it hydrated when it's in its case and also to keep it nice and oiled. Every time it's been repaired I've gone back to playing it 15 minutes, twice per day, and every week bumping each session up another 15 minutes. Once I get to five weeks in and I'm playing it for an hour twice a day, the crack opens up.
The crack runs from the second highest trill chimney (Bb key) almost to the tenon. It cuts through the machining of the highest trill chimney but not through the tonehole. The crack has stayed put at the ends (doesn't open up into the Bb chimney and doesn't move into the tenon) and doesn't actually get that much bigger, it just seems like the wood still swells and the glue cracks open in the middle of the crack once I play on it for a significant amount of time.
So my question is is this normal crack behaviour? I am probably gonna have to spend big bucks to get it pinned, the only place in town that does it is recommending bushing the toneholes it comes near. I think it will easily be a $300-400 operation. It's a good clarinet and I'm not in too deep financially yet, but I just wanted to get a second opinion: is a quality pin job a lot better than just glueing a crack? Am I going to keep having problems with it opening up? The shop that will do it seems to have a good reputation and has been around a while (Veraquin in Montreal.)
Thanks in advance for the advice,
Paul
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-05 03:20
You need to go to a better repair shop. A single crack is absolutely worth fixing.
The crack you describe is one of the most common. Glue won't hold it. It needs to be pinned. Pinning a single crack will cost nowhere near $300-$400. A chimney is probably unnecessary, but there's no way to tell without seeing it. The usual procedure is to grind up some grenadilla scrap and mix the dust with epoxy. The pin will stabilize the crack, and the epoxy will seal any leaks around the pad rim.
I don't know Veraquin, but a call to the shop would be easy. You might begin with a call to one of the clarinetists in the Montreal Symphony to get a recommendation.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2013-12-05 03:22)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-12-05 05:29
Attachment: dgprestigebushedtonehole 001.JPG (703k)
Attachment: dgprestigebushedtonehole 002.JPG (689k)
My first Selmer, a late '40s Bb cracked through to the bore between the trill key toneholes after I rebuilt it back in the late '80s and it was pinned and hasn't opened up since. These old Selmers are definitely worth having any work done to them to keep them playable as they're great instruments.
You can have the top joint carbon fibre banded to prevent the crack from opening up again, but it will probably mean having to cut a channel right through the logo.
Pinning will avoid damaging the logo if you want to preserve the appearance of this clarinet as much as possible. The split tonehole can be bushed to be sure the crack won't reopen and cause a leak.
See attached photo for a bushed throat A tonehole and a carbon fibre band above the oval silver badge on a Buffet DG Prestige I repaired recently.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-12-05 05:34)
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2013-12-05 07:04
The carbon fiber band is very interesting! Never thought of it.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-12-05 12:21
When I learned crack repair, I was taught to close the crack before I repaired it with moisture and time.It could take a week or more. Now I might give it a few days rest but I don't take extreme measures to close the crack. I figure the wood has moved to where it wants to be. In the past I have pinned a crack only to see another open on the other side.
The other factors affecting your situation may be:
1) the quality and age of the glue being used.
2) how well it got down into the crack
3) any previous oiling or treatment of the wood that may be keeping the glue from adhering. I was trying to do some tone hole work to a hand made clarinet from a well known maker. My cyanoacrylate glue did not want to stick to the wood.
Steve Ocone
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-12-05 12:30
I just want to shout out to Chris, that is nicely done work! Wish you'd posted a before shot as well.
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2013-12-05 13:17
I haven't contacted any OSM musicians directly, but I've been told they all deal with this shop. There are only about 4 people in town advertising work and they are the most respected for clarinet repair.
I know that they charge $100 per tonehole for bushing, which they seemed to say would be necessary (but maybe I should skip?) and crack glueing without pinning is $50 so I'm assuming pinning is going to be a lot more expensive. I'll have to go in with the instrument to talk to them and get a firm quote. I was mostly wanting to make sure it would be worth spending any more money on the repair and it sounds like pinning is just what I need. Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-12-05 13:36
Attachment: rcprestige 001.JPG (612k)
Attachment: rcprestige 002.JPG (615k)
Attachment: rcprestige 003.JPG (638k)
Attachment: rcprestige 004.JPG (639k)
Attached are photos of an RC Prestige I fitted three carbon fibre bands to - two are visible and the third is on the tenon hidden beneath the tenon cork.
Fortunately with Buffets, they stamp the logo on the top joint in a position that means it won't be obliterated when cutting the slots to fit a carbon fibre band (although on a regular RC the RC stamp will be lost). Selmer logos are usually stamped or engraved right where the slot will be cut. Unless you can get the logo re-engraved, it will be partly lost with a slot cut right across it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-12-05 13:38)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-12-05 14:28
Interesting to read Yamaha's most recent repair manual where they discuss repairing cracks - they no longer mention pinning or flush banding (with metal bands) but only recommend filling the crack with superglue (after scoring the line of the crack with a scriber to deepen it) and cleaning it all up once the superglue has dried.
If you're going to fill a crack with glue alone, it's best to get the glue in there while the crack is open, so when the wood shrinks it'll be in compression, then in theory it shouldn't open up again when in tension. It has been said some instruments really come alive once they've cracked as the tension has been released in the timber, so keeping the wood in this state by filling the opened crack with superglue ought to do the trick.
If you want to keep the wood in compression, then banding or pinning will do this as it holds the crack closed if done well, but the argument is that it doesn't allow the wood to move naturally and can impede vibrations. I don't think it will make much of a difference to be honest as I've only played instruments once they've already cracked and been repaired, so can't recall what they were like before.
Flush banding with nickel silver bands was popular in the US and you'll see a lot of older Selmers that have been repaired in this manner. The problem with this type of repair is that it's conspicuous and also the bands are shrunk into slots cut into the joints under very high pressure, so they can leave ridges in the bore once the wood swells up during normal playing, therefore causing a constriction (or two) in the bore.
Carbon fibre banding is glued and wound around the slot and kept under tension at the same time, but it is only pulled tight by hand, so the compressive force is far lower than using a shrinking die that can exert far more pressure to compress a nickel silver band tightly into the slot. Also carbon fibre is far less dense than nickel silver, so no extra mass is added to the joint.
Another thing I've heard done to prevent cracks spreading where there aren't any toneholes or pillar holes directly in the path of it is to put a deep oblique jeweller's saw cut in the joint in the path of a crack so it terminates in it which is then filled in to hide it. On the DG Prestige the crack ran right across the throat A tonehole (which is why it needed bushing) but didn't terminate in any other toneholes, so I drilled a blind hole in the joint in the path of both ends of the crack to give the crack somewhere to terminate with the view to halting it in its tracks - if a crack terminates in a tonehole, it shouldn't in theory go beyond, but sometimes they can do depending on the angle of the grain within the wood as opposed to the surface grain.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-12-05 14:39)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-12-05 16:13
@ Chris P, carbon fiber bands: amazing work, really!
>If you're going to fill a crack with glue alone, it's best to get the glue in there while the crack is open, so when the wood shrinks it'll be in compression, then in theory it shouldn't open up again when in tension.
with respect to gluing vintage horns, many of them haven't been used and dried out. If you super glue cracks in dry state and then oil wood for a couple weeks (I don't like giving oil bath, just do it manually), they have a pretty good chance of staying closed. Wood swells and creates a compression, plus oil displaces potential moisture, less chance of cracking later in use. Unfortunately if it does crack, it will be challenge to clean and glue oiled wood again. YMMV
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2013-12-07 04:08
Hi Paul,
I study with a clarinetist from the OSM, and have had lessons from all the other clarinetists of the OSM. Pascal Véraquin is a very good and reputable repairman whom I usually go to for all my serious repair work, as does the entire OSM clarinet section. He doesn't like pinning cracks actually; he prefers using carbon fibre bands for serious cracks. But you should call him up and make an appointment with him first - he only meets customers by appointment and he will give you an honest assessment of what needs to be done.
- Seok Hee Jang
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2013-12-07 15:22
I suspect superglue (Cyanoacrylate) in the long run might not be sufficiently water resistant. So I use epoxy resin for crack repairs. Informations I could find, however, are somewhat inconsistent:
Translated from German Wikipedia:
„Bondings with cyanacrylate glues are not humidity- or temperature- stable”
From a manufacturer’s manual: “...short time water resistant. When permanently immersed corrosion and degradation may occur”.
From English Wikipedia: “CA glue is also used in combination with sawdust (from a saw or sanding) to fill voids and cracks. These repair methods are used on piano soundboards, wood instruments...”
...but: “...Cyanoacrylate glue's ability to resist water has made it popular with marine aquarium hobbyists ... However, as a class of adhesives, traditional cyanoacrylates are classified as having "weak" resistance to both moisture and heat...”
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-12-07 15:38
You have to look at it like this - the crack will be in compression once repaired with the glue having wicked its way into it by capillary action and the joint is neither completely submerged in water for very long periods nor subjected to extreme heat. So superglue will work well and last in the long term once it's in there.
Don't just go on what you read in Wikipaedia, but what you KNOW works in practice.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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