 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: salzo
Date: 2012-09-15 00:33
I know I should measure with my own tools, but I do not have a Vandoren 5RV handy.
Anyone know the measurements?
thanks
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-09-15 02:09
I don't believe you can use a feeler gauge to measure the tip measurement. Unless you secure a metal reed to the mpc. the measurement is guaranteed to be inaccurate. Also, I have never seen feeler gauges in such small increments that would be appropriate for mpc openings.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-09-15 02:57
Garth,
Tip wand for the tip opening, feeler gauges and a piece of glass etched in half mm for plotting the curve are the basic tools of the trade.
Some refacers use a dial indicator for measuring the tip opening.
6 of one half a dozen of the other.
Salzo,
Don't have a 5RV laying around myself to measure either.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-09-15 02:59)
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-09-15 03:06
According to Vandoren's web site, the tip opening on a 5RV is 106.5.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: rdc
Date: 2012-09-15 03:07
Mouthpiece facings are measured using a system developed by Erick Brand, consisting of a glass plate marked off in half millimeters placed on the mouthpiece table. Four (for clarinet) feeler gauges of varying thicknesses are then placed one at a time between the plate and the mouthpiece and the measurements taken where each comes to a stop. The four feeler gauges, in thousandths of an inch, are .0015, .010, .024, and .034. Typical measurements might be 34, 22, 12, and 6 using these gauges. The numbers represent half millimeters, so the actual measurements are 17mm, 11mm, 6mm, and 3mm.
The tip opening is measured with a tip wand marked off in hundredths of a millimeter. It is also put between the glass plate and the mouthpiece tip rail until it comes to a stop, and the measurement taken. If the measurement is 105, that number represents an actual measurement of 1.05 mm.
Vandoren lists measurements for the 5RV as medium short facing length and a tip opening of 106.5. I have not measured a 5RV, but the M15 lists a long facing length, and I have measured that as 34.
Also, keep in mind that many European mouthpiece makers measure the absolute end of the tip rail, whereas the Erick Brand tip wand measures the inside edge of the tip rail, which, in my experience, produces a measurement 3 or 4 hundredths of a millimeter less than the outside edge. For example, Vandoren lists the tip opening of an M15 as 103.5, but I measure it at 99 with my Erick Brand-style tip wand. So I would expect to get around 102 for the 5RV.
I have seen reports that there was a lot of variation in the Erick Brand tip wands. The one I have is from a kit that Ralph Morgan used to put out, and I have checked it with Vernier calipers as best I could and believe it to be fairly accurate.
Robert Chest
Edited to avoid confusion. See post from Vytas Krass below.
Post Edited (2012-09-15 20:12)
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-09-15 09:39
I've read this several times but I still can't fully understand it. I understand the part about facing length, but in order to measure tip opening, I'm picturing the need for feeler gauges in hundredths of mm. (1.01, 1.02 1.3 etc). It makes more sense to me now when I think of a piece of glass placed on the table, but when I think of a feeler gauge being rubbed against the facing, I imaging damage to the delicate rubber. With very good vision, using a vernier caliper seems like a safer and more accurate idea.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-09-15 10:38
You gently slide the wand in and stop to take your measurement as soon as you feel friction... i have never seen this make a mark on the rubber (unlike the different thickness guages you use to measure the curve, which often leave a faint mark showing where they stopped).
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2012-09-15 14:35
Robert Chest wrote:
>>>"Mouthpiece facings are measured using a system developed by Erick Brand."<<<
The system was developed in France long time before Erick Brand.
Mouthpiece facings are measured using a system ADAPTED by Erick Brand.
Robert Chest wrote:
>>>".... in my experience, produces a measurement 3 or 4 millimeters less than the outside edge."<<<
If the tip opening is 1.05 millimeters how can you possibly measure 3 or 4 millimeters less than the outside edge?
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-09-15 19:44
Sal, FWIW, I have a Series 13 5RV Lyre here. The curve length (with a .0015" feeler) is 34 (17 mm for anyone not familiar with the system generally used for this). The rest of the curve, if you need it, is 6-12-22-28. I'd be surprised if the length of a 5RV is different from the Lyre version. The website says it's 106.5 mm - my Lyre measures slightly more open than that (using my tip wand, which is graduated in .005" increments, so I'm doing a little interpolating as well as converting).
Karl
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Author: rdc
Date: 2012-09-15 20:04
Vytas,
You wrote,
"Mouthpiece facings are measured using a system ADAPTED by Erick Brand."
Thanks. I did not know that. I first learned about mouthpiece measuring tools from an Erick Brand Mouthpiece Refacing kit in the 1970's. I had assumed he came up with the concepts.
Also,
"If the tip opening is 1.05 millimeters how can you possibly measure 3 or 4 millimeters less than the outside edge?"
Thanks for pointing out this error. I meant to say 3 or 4 hundredths of a millimeter. Thus, a Vandoren M15 that is advertised as 103.5, or 1.035mm, actually measures 99, or .99mm with the tip wand I have.
Robert Chest
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2012-09-15 20:09
All of these measurements vary by the tools used. 10 mouthpiece makers can measure the same mouthpiece and get as many as 10 different measurements, especially the tip.
The only 5RV I've measured was around 1.07, 35, 22, 11, 5.
I've found so much variation from vandoren to vandoren though, it's hardly very useful information.
I've measured and refaced a large number of M30's. The variation on my tools for the tip went from 1.11mm to 1.17mm. Most of the facings were consistent, 40, 25, 14, 7+.
A factor worth serious consideration with vandoren is the change in design over time. The rail thickness has gotten very wide over the years, making the mouthpieces measure closer than they are with the tip wand.
Re: Vytass Comment:
The "3 or 4 millimeters" was probably referring to hundredths of a mm. If you assume vandoren is measuring from the outside, the inside measurement would be a little bit more closed. The more likely scenario is that his wand measurements are just off by 3 or 4 hundredths if this is a consistent issue.
As a side-note, no one seems to have a 5RV handy to measure. This may be due to the fact that most people don't play this design...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-09-16 19:10
Huh! I play a 5RV but agree that there's no point in my reporting its measurements due to variation.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-09-16 22:34
BobD wrote:
> Huh! I play a 5RV but agree that there's no point in my
> reporting its measurements due to variation.
>
Well, whether or not there's a point depends on why the question comes up. Sal is a very experienced player who is perfectly aware of the variability of mouthpieces (among other things), whether hand or mass produced, so I'd make the assumption that he had a fairly specific reason for asking the question.
And the degree of variability isn't so very huge in any case. You won't find one 5RV (for example) with a 1.06 tip and another (unaltered) one with 1.15 or 1.02 or one with a length of 36 and another that measures 32 or 38.
The tolerances aren't nearly as small as those in the parts of an aircraft engine, but mouthpieces of a specific design are similar enough to allow some comparison to other differently designed ones (say, a 5RV to a B45 or even an M13).
Karl
Post Edited (2012-09-16 22:53)
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-09-17 23:41
Interesting thread.
The real experts have not weighed in (Brad Behn, Greg Smith, Ramon W.), however Robert Chest is accurate in his summary (in my opinion).
I must add that the Brand system seems very archaic in this age of iPhones etc. There is too much variation in the "wands" and how someone actually uses this device.
Surely the manufactured Mpc companies such as Vandoren are NOT using this method. They must be having something that has a much greater tolerance in measuring facings and tip opening.
In the end - and here is where the beauty lies - its about what feels good for each player and what pleases their ear.
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