 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-02 16:50
I have a new student coming tomorrow, who is 2nd chair in her high school band. She made Regional Band in 10th grade, and is excited for the next level of instruction.
Her Mom told me that since she's the #2 player, she was put on 2nd part, as the director wants a strong player on each part. She's not challenged at all by 2nd her mom told me in the call for lessons.
So I'm wondering if I should write her director (I don't know him, as she's traveling a distance for these lessons) and possibly suggest that the part be rotated, so she's not penalized by being "2nd best". What my own goal for her will be is for her to destroy the 1st chair fairly quickly, and then it's the other players grief.
Any other suggestions? She's in 11th grade, and the thought of a strong player playing 2nd part is completely unappealing personally, but I'm not about to tell her that, just have to stay positive.
Is that common place for the director to do that?
I'm not asking for her to share solos (would be nice though), but just not to play 2nd part all the time.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: dperreno
Date: 2012-03-02 17:04
It might be better received if you wait until she is sitting in the first chair spot before making the suggestion...
Doug
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-02 17:12
I'd say that's an IDEAL situation. Find ways to challenge her on 2nd part, or find other rep that challenges her and treat school band as "something she also does." Everyone can't play first, and also music isn't just about playing a part that you need to practice to get under your fingers. I've professionally played plenty of music that wasn't at all technically challenging, yet found ways to dig further into it and make it more compelling.
Have her listen to some Earth or Sunn O))) for music that's compelling while technically quite simple.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2012-03-02 17:29
I'm a strong player and have been concert master - but at this time I play 3rd part in wind symphony cuz thats where I'm needed. I think each part has their own challenges.
The director may not appreciate your interference and that may hurt the student in the long run. If your goal is to put her in first chair then go for it. give her challenging things to do in lessons. or see if she can find a community band that may be more challenging for her.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-02 17:52
Hopefully, the lessons will make her band experience a positive thing. I've learned over the years that Directors do what Directors do....... Don't even bother trying to reason with them, as they know their goals, their programs goals, and the needs of the program.
Individual students either fit in, or not.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: William
Date: 2012-03-02 18:06
In the old world, the 'best' player sat in first chair until unseated via a challenge. In the newer and better world, all players rotate through the entire section, giving all the chance--or challenge--of the first parts. Emphasis is placed on playing each part as well as one can regardless of whether it is the 'first', 'second' or 'third'. The ensemble is more important than the individual and everyone gets equal chance to excel. All you can (or should) do is stress the importance of playing her second part perfectly and give her extra materials appropriate for her level.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2012-03-02 18:28
Quote:
What my own goal for her will be is for her to destroy the 1st chair fairly quickly, and then it's the other players grief.
Is this a joke?
Yes, I have a suggestion. Or two.
First, you haven't heard her play yet - correct? It is quite possible that she believes she isn't being challenged by the repertoire, but there are in fact a host of issues. How many high school kids (or even college kids, or a few adult professionals) can make a seamless transition over the first register change? 2nd parts in band music can be challenging for that fact alone as they are written back and forth over that break.
If the music is truly not that challenging, then have her think bigger than band. Why waste her time on band music when she can be challenged in other avenues, through new repertoire or auditioning for a few of the high ranking youth orchestras.
Neither of you should fall into the big fish little puddle syndrome.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-02 18:38
Yup, no fish in pond syndrome, but there will be a huge jump in her playing. It's like that when a student who hasn't had lessons with a specialist gets them. Hard not to.
I teach the players in those high ranking youth orchestras
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2012-03-02 19:11
well said William. She might even learn to play well with others, but that's just crazy talk.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-03-02 20:07
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> What my own goal for her will
> be is for her to destroy the 1st chair fairly quickly, and then
> it's the other players grief.
Such a nice guy ...
Good grief! And people wonder how students get so bitchy ...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-02 20:16
Grifffinity, seemless transition over the register is not a big deal at all. A good player should be able to do that easily.
That's 2nd year stuff, maybe 1st for good players.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-02 20:24
Getting put on second is only grief if your performance life centers around part placement in band. Time to expand some horizons.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-02 21:20
Alex, while 2nd part is fine for a while, it pales compared to 1st. If a player likes playing 1st, and is good enough to play the part, as well as being a top player in the band, but not the very best, they shouldn't be always penalized by it.
Personally, I like the melody a lot more than the harmony, and apparently she does too........, and wants the challenge of the harder part.
Not that the harmony is any easier by any stretch, as there's not nearly as many audio cues asto what's going on. It has challenges in itself.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-02 21:32
My question was "is that normal for the band director to take the 2nd best player, and put that person on 2nd part" - guessing as well, that the 3rd strongest player is on 3rd part following that logic........
Not that it's a terrible thing for the band, as it gives strong players on each part. What she will get from me, is that it's what the band needs, and to work hard to get principal if that's her goal.
But to be happy in the process
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-03-02 21:34
Second and third parts are often easier than first parts, but there are times . . .
When I was in college, we once performed an Air Force Band transcription of Respighi's Roman Festivals. The guest conductor was Col. Arnald Gabriel, a fantastic musician and a wonderful person. Roman Festivals is a great piece of music, but it's not easy, especially in a band transcription. I was the first of the third clarinets, and at one point, there was an exposed and very difficult solo for me to play. Yes, the solo was assigned to the third clarinets, to this day, I have no idea why! Perhaps the entire clarinet section in the Air Force Band was very strong (I'm sure it still is), and the arranger saw no reason not to do it this way.
At various times, I've played first, second, and third clarinet parts in bands. Second and third parts may not always be quite as difficult as first parts, but in challenging high school literature, they're hardly easy. Is her band playing challenging music?
I think this girl should focus on being the very best player she can be, and not get worked up over playing a second clarinet part. Good bands need good players on the second and third parts!
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2012-03-02 21:40
Maybe she thinks she's a better player than she really is. (I've had at least two or three of those as clarinet students) Maybe you'll find out why she wasn't put on the first part, perhaps it's because of lack of control on tone, especially in the upper clarion and altissimo. As for me, sometimes I prefer to take the second or third parts, and don't mind playing them if asked, because I know conductors want to hear those parts played well. If she really is quite good, she can have material that will challenge her, you can encourage her to audition for ensembles outside of school. With me, the band at school wasn't challenging (even the first parts were very easy, and I was the principal clarinet for 4 of the 5 years I was there (Grade 10 to Grade 13), but was playing some challenging 3rd clarinet parts in the two all-city ensembles I played in between Grade 11 and graduation, which was often music played by college music majors. But even when the parts or music is easy, I focus on making the music as expressive as possible in terms of dynamics and tone quality.
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-02 21:43
What I'm saying is that it's all small potatoes compared to what the student could be doing. If a person's entire musical existence revolves around the whims of a director, and getting to play a few notes faster and higher a couple days a week, it is a very limited existence indeed. In just about any case (pro groups notwithstanding, to an extent), first chair in one ensemble is equivalent to last chair in the next, and the claw-your-way-to-first mentality, imho, is responsible for a lot of with-blinders-on attitude, shutting people out from an immense wealth of musical possibilities in the world.
The landscape of music in situations that don't require auditions nor have chair placements is incredibly broad, and typically overlooked, especially by classical musicians.
If it were me, I'd accept the chair placement and never give it a second thought. Instead, start your own ensembles... whether classical (trios, quintets, whatever) or branching out into other genres (jazz, rock, folk, punk, etc.). Situations that allow you to explore, to choose your own rep, to experiment, to play with the people you want to play with. Take the band situation for what it is... social hour, and a place to meet people you want to play with elsewhere.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-03-02 21:51
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> My question was "is that normal for the band director to take
> the 2nd best player, and put that person on 2nd part" -
> guessing as well, that the 3rd strongest player is on 3rd part
> following that
If my kid's teacher ever said something like "destroying the first chair" that teacher would be looking for students elsewhere. It's unprofessional and unnecessary. Selling oneself and/or being competitive does not require the denigration of others.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2012-03-02 22:44
I agree with just about everything everyone has said. How about teaching her Eb Clarinet, and if you feel the need to contact the director, asking him if she could play Eb in the band, under the condition that she will be studying it with you to perform on it in tune. When there's no Eb part, she could play 2nd at that point.
I'm playing in one of the ensembles at school right now, and as a doctoral oboe student, I'm playing clarinet in the 2nd of 3 bands. While I don't play first in the band, the 2 other master's students and I alternate between 1a, 2a and 3a parts. The director has found that a strong leader in each section has brought a great deal of unity to the section, and has made the whole ensemble sound better. This is probably the aim of the director.
Otherwise, get her some friends to play chamber music. I find this some of the most gratifying music to play!
And this:
Mark Charette wrote:
> If my kid's teacher ever said something like "destroying
> the first chair" that teacher would be looking for students
> elsewhere. It's unprofessional and unnecessary. Selling oneself
> and/or being competitive does not require the denigration of
> others.
Like Mark says, be careful of how you sell yourself. This kind of demeanor is very unappealing to a parent, and I think not something we want to teach our kids. Yes, we want them to do well, and play the best they possibly can, but "destroying the first chair" is a bit irrational, as that person may be a very good player also. What if he was also one of your students? How would you feel if another teacher/student said that about him?
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-02 23:33
Btw, I don't know how good the other player is, but I do know what hard work, and a fresh approach can do for a player. She was studying with the director before, who is far from a Professional Clarinet Teacher.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2012-03-02 23:58
"What my own goal for her will be is for her to destroy the 1st chair fairly quickly, and then it's the other players grief."
Personally, David, I loved it! :-) I knew what you meant.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-03 02:22
I still say that this whole "aiming to play better than someone else" business is a bit of a farce. Starts you off on a never-ending rat race of making it to the top of an ensemble only to find yourself in the bottom of the next, all the while only ever playing rep that is prescribed to you and ultimately making you entirely replaceable.
If you can't take whatever rep is given to you, accept it as important and valued, dig deep into it, and find ways to bring the music to life, but rather have nothing on your mind other than outplaying the person on top, you're headed to a dead end, and also setting yourself up to be that person nobody likes playing with because you're always either chomping at their heels or in defending-the-fortress mode.
Worse yet, if you're going to throw a hissy fit every time you don't play first, what is your purpose in music? Are you looking to do something cool and collaborative, or is your only function to occupy a position of dominance?
The lousiness of 2nd clarinet parts in wind bands is another matter entirely, one best taken up with lousy band composers.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-03 03:35
So I'll tell her to quit Band.
Thanks guys, you've been a big help!!
(kidding, totally kidding
But yeah, I do of course plan to be positive about it. The Mom brought it up, otherwise I wouldn't have thought a thing about it.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-03 03:35
David, you asked if it is normal for band directors to place their top three clarinetists as first chairs in the first, second and third sections, respectively. I don't think it's the most common practice but your student's band director is certainly not unique. I have heard of other directors who follow this practice. They consider all the parts important, want to achieve a level of balance within the organization and, therefore, want at least one strong player on each part. It seems to me that this approach focuses on the importance of the team's performance rather than an individual's personal esteem.
In my experience, if the first part is challenging, the second and third parts usually will be as well. Status is often very important to kids your student's age and I wonder if the real issue here isn't her perception that, to her friends and the audience, she appears to be ranked behind all the clarinetists in the first section, not just the concertmaster. If the issue is truly that she wants more challenging music, help her seek it outside the band. Does her school have an orchestra? Are there chamber ensembles? Do students at her school perform singly and in groups in regional, district and state "festivals"? Can she take home a first folder if it's owner leaves it at school so that she can work on those parts in addition to her own. (Her own part must take priority but, if she finds it easy, she'll at least know she can cover the first parts even if she isn't playing them in rehearsal and at concerts.)
If status is the real issue, point out to her (and realize) that she is not being penalized for being the second best player, she's being recognized as a leader among the clarinetists. Instead of being responsible for playing (anonymously) the first part (where she can hide behind the concertmaster), she is being given responsibility to lead the performance of the entire second section. The audience can see the first chair second section player. They can't see the second chair first section player.
If she wants to distinguish herself as an individual player in her school, perhaps there are other ways, e.g., learning saxophone and playing in the stage band. Whatever you do,though, I think you should try to instill in her a pride in being a section leader even if the music is technically easier and help her understand the importance of contribution to a "team" effort. Again, she is not being punished for being second best player, she is being entrusted with the responsibility of helping the BAND sound good. She needs to learn that being second chair first section in a band that stinks because it lacks balance is ultimately less satisfying than playing first chair second section in a band that really sounds great.
MOO,
jnk
Post Edited (2012-03-03 03:39)
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-03-03 03:51
Sometimes I really wish you could "like" comments on this board, as you may on facebook. There are some excellent posts here by Alex, Mark, William and others... right now I have no time to add one of my own (which would be largely redundant given that i agree with much of that written above) but i can say that the type of competitivness DB inspires was quite damaging to my development as a musician.
dn
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-03 04:42
Donald, I feel your pain. Don't confuse what I write with anything but positive encouragement. I've never had a student come back with anything but much gratitude of the music lessons, and the deep appreciation for music (at least listening later if not playing) they got here.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2012-03-03 04:43)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-03-03 05:50
>> Don't confuse what I write with anything but positive encouragement. <<
There's no confusion:
>> What my own goal for her will be is for her to destroy the 1st chair fairly quickly, and then it's the other players grief. <<
This is egoistic and violent thinking.
It sounds like the challenge of playing the 1st part pales in comparison to the much bigger and more mental and personal challenge of playing the 2nd part. The latter being not only bigger and more important with clarinet playing and music, but in life. But it all pales in comparison to the very violent approach in the first post.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2012-03-03 08:54
David to be honest I think it's quite a good idea for the stronger players to be spread amongst the parts. It's even better if the 1st chair organises this and, as suggested, revolves the players. A true leader will but the needs of the section above their own needs and my even move themselves down in order to help a weaker player grow musically.
This is the system I try to encourage in my Wind ensembles.
On a side (but related note), I've ofter though that the system of having 1st and 2nd and sometimes 3rd clarinets in orchestras a bit antiquated. If you are good enough to get the gig I suppose you are good enough to play 1st. You could revolve the players to suit their strengths.
Chris Ondaatje.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2012-03-03 14:19
Agreed.
David, apparently some people are too uptight, don't understand your dry sense of humor, or still haven't gotten over their own bad experiences in high school band.
It was the competitive spirit that motivated me to practice and do better throughout high school and college. That was me, though.
I don't understand this attack on your obvious humor. We've all thought stuff like this. You were honest enough to share it with us. I don't believe it reflects one bit on the kind of teacher you are. Even if you HAD said this to me as a high school student, I would have laughed about it and added: "To infinity and beyond!"
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-03 14:38
Hehe... music can use a bit of violence now and again. Some call it "passion". I'd direct it toward the music rather than a quest to be first chair, but it's a part of the human experience that I think it's a disservice to ignore.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-03-03 16:01
Claire Annette wrote:
> Agreed.
>
> David, apparently some people are too uptight, don't understand
> your dry sense of humor, or still haven't gotten over their own
> bad experiences in high school band.
Well color me stupid then.
I don't have any bad band experiences (considering that I wasn't in any school band), and the statement had no humor. As to being uptight ... possibly. I DO judge people by what they say & write - it's the only method I have at hand. Writing, especially, allows time for at least a bit of reflection before hitting that "Post" button. Not that I've ever hit it a bit too soon in the past and will do so again in the future, but ...
I never ever considered MAKING MUSIC to be a zero-sum game, with winners and losers.
For those who think that it IS a zero-sum game, well, some thoughts are best left unspoken.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-03 16:12
Lesson given, no big deal.
Sweet girl, wants to work hard so that next year she's first chair. Current first is a very good Senior, so he's out of there, but 3rd chair is his Girlfriend, and she wants his spot.
So yeah, there's some competition for that 1st spot.
But the current 2nd chair got her Clarinet World Illuminated today 
She's psyched to work hard.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-03 16:25
Competition to the point where it becomes an obsession, or like Interlochen used to be back pre 1995 or so, is bad. Competition that inspires hard work though is good.
But if someone wants a more interesting part, and yeah, I do find 1st a heck of a lot more interesting than 2nd or 3rd, color me stupid too......
Neither of us are though.
ps, all of these postings, except this one, were on my iphone. So there really isn't much of a pause, and deeply reflect there. Just posting what's on my mind.
Not trying to offend anyone.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-03 16:42
I'll agree with you on the awfulness of 2nd and 3rd. 2nd and 3rd wind band parts, especially in high school, are mind-numbingly dull, probably due to a history of lesser players on those parts, as a result of which band music "composers" write really easy stuff down there. But I've dug deep over the years in ways of making dull parts interesting. Anyone can sound interesting on a first part with some practice, but someone who can add spice to repeated whole, half and quarter notes is a rare find. Could explain why I'm so into doom metal lately.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-03 16:55
Absolutely, and strong 2nds and 3rds are what make a band sound really good, much more so than just a strong 1st chair.
I won't say anything to the Director. Next fall, if she improves a lot, and isn't on 1st as a Senior, I'll speak up. The school is about 35 miles away, so it's not like many others would come here.
Coincidentally, my daughter graduated there!
She stopped playing in 8th grade.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-03 17:32
Last thing, just remembered her telling me -
She said that she wants a reed case.
In 9th grade, she was told by a Senior, who wanted to major in performance, that "she doesn't need a (Rico) Reed Holder unless she's going to be a Professional player".....
That same player was quite annoyed that he then got beaten by her for Chair placement, due to her having a better sound.
So yeah, it's a bit cut throat over there.
I like "spreading out the opportunities", but doesn't seem like it happens much there.
Save the good 2nd parts for a talented Sophomore, not a Junior.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-03-03 19:36
EEBaum wrote:
> A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. :P
What an eighties attitude. :-)
--
Ben
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-03-03 19:39
tictactux wrote:
> EEBaum wrote:
>
> > A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. :P
>
> What an eighties attitude. :-)
>
Reminds me of a scene in a James Bond movie ...
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