 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rick77
Date: 2011-12-22 02:39
I need to replace a couple of pads on my R13 so I'm thinking about having the whole upper joint repadded with cork pads while it's in the shop. What are the pros & cons of doing this vs. traditional pads? Also, what would be a ballpark figure to pay for having this done?
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Author: William
Date: 2011-12-22 02:49
Cork pads will enhance the sound, will never be affected by moisture and will last indefinately (forever??). I have cork on all of my pro level clarinets and will never go back to skin pads, exept for the lower joint, of course......
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-22 03:09
I'm thinking about doing this to my horn. I think a lot of orchestral players do this. To defend skin pads, I've had the original pads on my R13 for 6 years without a problem. It's about time to change them just for aesthetics, but they work good as ever.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-12-22 03:46
I had all cork pads on the upper joint of my R13 I recently sold and just had all cork pads put on the upper joint of my new R13. Corks don't stick, they don't get water-logged and I've always loved having cork pads.
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Author: miclew
Date: 2011-12-22 12:22
I have never seen cork pads before. Why would you only put them on the upper joint and not the lower?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 12:34
There's no reason not to cork pad the lower joint - I usually cork pad right down to the cross B/F# key as it's a low lying one, sometimes I even fit a cork pad in the Ab/Eb key if the diameter of that pad cup isn't wider than 15.5mm, but I usually put leather pads in the largest pad cups as they're far more durable than skin pads. You could cork pad all the largest pad cups, but due to the noisy nature of cork pads it could make things a bit clunky.
If you compress cork pads during assembly, they could break up if the quality isn't that good (and cork pads are hugely variable in terms of quality), lose their seal or go out of regulation - leather or skin pads will recover faster when compressed but cork pads will take a lot longer to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-12-22 14:21
Cork on upper and next cup to it. White kid leather on the rest. After you receive the clarinet from the shop, I recommend checking each pad by magnified inspection to see that it seats properly.( I did all padwork myself, but it was time consuming to arrive at a tight fit. )
richard smith
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 15:19
But in order for cork pads to be successful, the toneholes have to be perfect and level as any small nicks, chips or vessels running across the crown of the bedplace or any unevenness will cause a leak. So it's a case of inspecting all the toneholes and filling in any imperfections as you find them, then levelling them all to ensure an airtight seal as cork pads won't conform to imperfections like some soft skin pads and leather pads do.
The cork pads themselves are best ground flat on pumice or emery laid on glass to achieve a smooth, flat and blemish free surface - if any pads do have holes or pores in them (and you've got no choice but to use them), they can still be used provided they're well within the tonehole or outside it, but never on the tonehole impression as that will cause a leak.
Installing cork pads is a case of floating them in on shellac (as opposed to hot glue) as you'd do with leather or skin pads, so you're best doming or tapering the backs of them (using a file or sanding them) to allow them to be moved around in the pad cup. Then check they seat all the way around using the thinnest cigarette papers possible as a feeler gauge.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-12-22 15:31
I believe the reason most tech's don't recommend using cork on the larger pads is that cork is porous and the larger the pad the more chance there will be is very slight leak, ever so slight. Good tech's use very high quality cork. My repairman back in the NY in the 50-60s used to use wine bottle corks but now they can buy cork sheets and use cookie cutters, for cork of course, for the size they need.
I love cork pads in the upper joint I think they're great. They will still get soaked if you play wet so you still have to check and dry them if you do but they will last mush longer and seal very well if done correctly in the first place. I have seen some clarinets with cork in the smaller pads in the lower joint but do not have an opinion on that, my tech doesn't do that unless asked to. What you do need to make sure is that the 1/1 key pads uses the same type of pad, most techs will use skin pads for both of those because you want to have the same easy pressure on both of them. I guess you can use cork on them but most pros don't. Cork does not have the give that a skin pad does.
The reason some players don't like cork in the upper trill keys is that they say they are too noisy but it's never bothered me. I always suggest when one needs to replace the pads in the upper joint that they go with cork, with the exception of the 1/1. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 15:54
"I believe the reason most tech's don't recommend using cork on the larger pads is that cork is porous and the larger the pad the more chance there will be is very slight leak, ever so slight."
If cork pads were porous, then no-one would use them at all. There are some types of leather pads out there that leak like sieves. If anything, I can get a clarinet far more airtight using cork pads than using any other type of traditional skin or leather pad. You do have to be very selective of the pads you use when cork padding, so there are a lot that end up being discarded or used elswhere (such as the throat A key stopper cork).
For the long Bb, I glue ultrasuede to the bridge key linkage so there's some give in it and as with setting the long Bb up on any clarinet, the LH2 pad should close with more pressure than the RH ring key pad.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 16:03
Long Bb - xoo|xoo
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-12-22 18:40
The connector mechanizm between the upper and lower joints which enables you to play Bb/Eb with the first fingers of each hand--like Chris diagramed.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-22 19:30
Chris,
The ultra suede idea is BRILLIANT !!!!
I never thought of that.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-12-22 20:11
Just the opposite from chris, I prefer to have the lower pad for the 1-1 Bb with a slightly firmer pressure than the top D/A pad for a couple of reasons.
The D/A key is sometimes closed by the left hand finger which doesn't use the bridge key. When it is closed by the bridge key there is more flex in the mechanism (only a tiny bit hopefully, with a decent design) and that's when hinges are as accurate as they can be (if not, that adds to the problem). If D/A closes with firmer pressure than B/F# then, when the flex is "removed" by pressing D/A with the left hand finger, the right hand key will have to overcome that flex and it can result in a slightly worse feel of that key i.e. you will feel it "too much" in the left hand. So I prefer to have F#/B close firmly when using very light touch (less than playing pressure) and have D/A just close.
The second reason is that when using 1-1 Eb or Bb, the D/A pad key is the last closed key, followed by two open tone holes. So it can close very "softly", still seal, but it isn't as critical as other situations for more pressure. For the F#/B key, if A/D closes firmer, then it can compromise its feel or seal, when it is much more important for this key to close easily and reliably (i.e. with firm pressure) for all notes before it, where the slightest leak (or slight resistant to seal, even if it does seal) can be a big problem. For almost all other notes other than 1-1 the A/D key is closed by the left hand finger, so no compromise.
As far as ultra suede, I can see why someone would use it for a slightly softer link when the two pads are firm cork. I don't especially like it because it's not only soft but also feels springy to me. Personally I'd rather use a similar material that isn't springy.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-12-22 20:14
Chris P, that's exactly what I meant by being pores, they have to be very choosy when deciding which pieces of cork to use, the larger the pieces the more difficult it is to choose the "perfect" piece. I hope you understand now what I meant by pores, I didn't mean they leaked otherwise I won't use it or recommend it. Sorry I wasn't clearer on that for you. ESP
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-12-22 20:15
Got my newly-cork-padded (just the upper joint) clarinet back today. For those of you familiar with the name, Larry Mueller does excellent work.
Also had him put a pin in the middle of the cork pad in the register key--a tip given me by this year's ICA president. It's supposed to help the tone from that hole resonate more clearly. This is an experiment for me since I've not tried it before.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 20:22
I've often found if the LH2 pad closes lighter than the RH ring key pad, the long Bb can suffer or fly off if the clarinet hasn't been assembled properly (and that's usually the owner's fault, but we have to consider their shortcomings in that department!) - by more pressure on the RH ring key pad I don't mean excessively, especially if the clarinet also has an articulated C#/G# key.
Taking into account (or working with) the springy nature of the ultrasuede will also make the action feel right.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-12-22 20:22)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 20:28
Ed, I realise what you mean now and sourcing large diameter pads isn't without its problems.
Sometimes you can get lucky fashioning them from wine bottle corks (or flute headjoint corks for perforated cork pads for the LH1 fingerplate on altos and basses), but if you want top quality cork pads of diameters larger than 15.5 or 16mm, you will have to pay a premium for them. And finding ones where the grain is completely parallel to the surface is like finding a needle in a haystack.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-12-23 01:49
Cork pads on the upper joint is the only way to go.
However with the lower register the cork pads make a lot of noise. Clacking type of sound and they get worse as they dry out a bit, often the audience will hear the noise. Needless to say - YUK A clarinet shouldn't sound like that.
The first thing I do when getting new horns is replace the upper joint with cork pads. I also thin down the octive key pad, and replace the thumb tube hole on the "A" clarinets - Buffets. These tubes are too long. Doing these 2 things to the A clarinet really helps the response of the horn and frees up all of those stuffy notes. You can get smaller tubes from specialty repairmen. You would be amazed how great the horn plays. Email me if you want to change the A clarinet octive key tube
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-12-23 04:44
There are advantages and disadvantages to cork pads, some are objective and some are subjective. I have to disagree with "Cork pads on the upper joint is the only way to go."
Cork pads usually (almost always) last longer than bladder pads, but not necessarily longer than some other types of pads.
Cork pads can stick. Maybe not as often as e.g. leather pads, but they still do it sometimes. In addition to normal sticking, on register keys (depending on the shape of the register tube) they can sometimes get a "dent" and the register tube can get stuck in it. Onlya very short length but it's enough to annoy when playing. On the same registerr tube, three cork pads developed this problem, while other types of pads never had this problem.
I'm not sure what the poster meant by "water-logged" but they meant the water you sometimes get between pad and tone hole, temporarily "sealing" the tone hole, then it can happen with cork pads and IME just as much as some other pads. If they meant the pad gets soked in wanter, that doesn't happen with most other pads.
Cork pads are noisier than many other pads. There two seperate issues with this.
First, the noise is simply louder. Maybe you don't mind and then no problem. BTW bigger keys will have more noise, which is one of the reasons firm pads like cork are not usually used for them. One player had a bass clarinet upper joint repadded with cork pads and then quickly re-repadded it with different pads, for that reason.
Second, the type of noise (regardless of its volume) is different. Some people don't like the type of noise cork pads have. If you don't mind, or if like it, no problem.
Cork pads are more "demanding" in terms of accuracy of tone holes and hinges. If you are going to someone who is less than excellent (and there are many unfortunately) then the result can be bad.
You might feel it "enhances" the sound, you might feel it makes it worse and you might not feel it makes a difference to the sound. A lot of this depends on the quality of work anyway. Of course if the clarinet is leaky or not in great condition before, then a good repad would make it play significantly better.
If you don't mind any of the issues and you have someone who will do a good job, then cork pads should get you a clarinet that plays excellent, seals great, has a firm feel to the pads and lasts a long time.
Chris, I know your method works. I guess it's just a matter of choosing which advantages you prefer and I prefer another method. Re the bridge key problem you mentioned, I usually adjust the bridge key to prevent that from happening.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-23 06:44
The feel of having cork pads on the main action is different as since cork pads have very little to no give, they will feel more solid under the fingers which could take some getting used to for those used to having soft, spongy pads. To me, they feel more positive - when properly seated, they're either open or closed when in use and don't have that feeling of closing slowly or progressively some other pads exhibit, especially if not seated properly. Since I've worked predominantly on oboes and cors I do like the positive feel and action provided by having cork pads fitted (my oboe, d'amore and cor are cork padded throughout).
As cork pads are successful on oboes, then there's no reason they shouldn't be on clarinets - I've even cork padded my piccolo throughout and several piccolos for other players. For other non-stick or low compression applications, I use cork pads on sax 8ve vents as well.
Badly treated, cork pads will stick - so knowing about their maintenance is important. If toneholes are left wet after playing (such as trill key toneholes), cork pads can stick to them, but will free up once opened. If that persists, take the key off, clean the tonehole and pad and then you shouldn't have any further trouble, but do dry toneholes after playing, especially in winter and don't store your clarinet in the cold.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-12-23 13:25
Larry was my tech for several years here in San antonio. Great guy and expert tech.
richard smith
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-23 17:59
Another important thing to remember when installing cork pads on clarinets, especially if you're cork padding all the ring key pads is to make sure the rings are slightly proud of the chimneys instead of level.
Although it also depends on the player's fingers - if they have fat fingers then the rings don't have to be set much more than 0.2-0.3mm higher than the tops of the chimneys whereas players with narrow fingers will need the rings set atound 0.5mm higher than the chimneys.
And make sure the rings are as concentric and as level as possible with the chimneys when they're held down, but that may not always be possible depending on the overall build quality or attention to detail where some makes will be better than others in this respect, either through poor fitting or poor design or geometry of keywork parts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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