 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-03 12:43
I expect that I will get howls of disapproval for sharing this.
I was getting a nasty rattle in my tone and discovered on inspection that the pads on two of my RH side trill keys had split - about 1 year old.
First I experimented by wrapping ClingFilm around the offending pads but was not satisfied with the result.
I removed the respective keys, ran a tiny amount of Superglue through the hole in the bladder, prodded the pad into shape with the tip of the watchmaker's screwdriver I was using and waited for it to dry.
I reassembled and put a little black PVC electrical tape under the pad to give it a little resilience, a little squeeze to seat it. I was not happy with the result so I took the black tape off.
I then put some decorators masking tape under the pads instead, again a little squeeze to seat. This seemed a lot better but I discovered it is impossible to remove it from the pad. Took the keys off again and trimmed the masking tape circular so it looked OK. Reassembled.
Works pretty well and sounds much better than it did. No leaks, no rattle.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-05-03 12:48
And if you kept some extra pads in your clarinet case with a few flakes of hot glue and a book of matches, you could have a functional clarinet in a few minutes...
...GBK
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-03 12:58
GBK wrote:
> And if you kept some extra pads in your clarinet case with a
> few flakes of hot glue and a book of matches, you could have a
> functional clarinet in a few minutes...
>
> ...GBK
Good point, but I never planned on playing with fire near the instrument - or having to. I'm not sure I would have the courage to attempt this just yet - maybe it's easy, but ...
I am looking at the possibility to re-padding with neoprene in the future.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-05-03 13:42
"I am looking at the possibility to re-padding with neoprene in the future."
Hmmm. You could look at the posibility of using it for carpet, or underwear while you are at it. The current materials, basically felt or cork based, have been used for so long because they do the job very, very well.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-03 13:48
Neoprene is crap - too spongy for pads.
But if you like the marshmallow feel of squishy pads then that's your perogative.
You can use a thin layer of neoprene glued to cork - which is pretty much like the Eddie Aston Supapads (and they don't need any extra special installation techniques than any other kind of pad, so don't believe what people tell you).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-03 14:51
Chris P wrote:
> Neoprene is crap - too spongy for pads.
>
> But if you like the marshmallow feel of squishy pads then
> that's your perogative.
>
> You can use a thin layer of neoprene glued to cork - which is
> pretty much like the Eddie Aston Supapads (and they don't need
> any extra special installation techniques than any other kind
> of pad, so don't believe what people tell you).
>
Ah, thanks for that. I saw your comment on Eddie Ashton Superpads in a previous thread on neoprene pads and took that as an endorsement of neoprene.
Also, there is this article on using neoprene pads. http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/saxstuff.html
Overall, there do seem to be benefits but only as a facing?
I have to say that I am unhappy with the standard pads failing in the space of a year. Is this normal? Or was it just that poor quality pads were used? I only play about an hour a day.
Post Edited (2010-05-03 14:54)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-03 14:57
Have your clarinet repadded with leather or cork pads - you'll get far more life out of them than with skin pads.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-05-03 15:53
Valentino makes a synthetic stick in pad that would work well in an emergency setting. I have had the Valentino professional pads on instruments and have also tried high end (even custom) clarinets that have been set up with the Valentino pro pads that have been great.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-05-03 15:56
Don't tell my customers but....
I've had many of the skin pads on my A clarinet for in excess of 25 years and they are still 100% airtight.
Good quality pads put in properly can last for many years, even on a regularly played Bb.
Oh and another thing.. Eddie Ashton implies that only his superpads are 100% airtight. I can only think that he doesn't appear to be able to install regular skin pads correctly.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-05-03 16:18
Gigaday, try stretching teflon over the torn pad, that usually works very good as a temporary solution. Maybe it's worth carying it in your case anyway in case of a loose tenon, eventhough I don't...
>> And if you kept some extra pads in your clarinet case with a few flakes of hot glue and a book of matches, you could have a functional clarinet in a few minutes... <<
Many people can't really do this and sometimes might leave a huge leak on that key, much worse than the torn pad. ASsuming they won't leave tons of glue all over the instrument.
>> Neoprene is crap - too spongy for pads. <<
Are all synthetic pads from neoprene? Like Valentinos? If they are, then some are not really spongy, for example Omni pads. Actually most of the pads on my clarinet are neoprene (still originals). I think I have five different types of pads on my clarinet. I agree about the feel of THOSE neoprene ones, but I don't mind enough to replace them. I wouldn't use them for others though unless they really wanted (which never happened). Some people might like them as they are even quieter (IMO too quiet).
>> I have to say that I am unhappy with the standard pads failing in the space of a year. Is this normal? <<
There are big differences between different bladder ("standard") pads. Some fail very fast and some last a very long time. So it's impossible to generalize.
>> Have your clarinet repadded with leather or cork pads - you'll get far more life out of them than with skin pads. <<
It's true that these types usually last longer than bladder, but some players prefer bladder pads in spite of that. Omni seem to have the advantages of synthetics without the spongy feel of some others.
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Author: Katelyn
Date: 2010-05-03 18:56
Once during an outdoor performance, I lost a pad and left my repair kit in my other case. We had about ten minutes to showtime, so going to get it wasn't an option. None of my fellow clarinetists bothered to carry extra pads with them. Luckily one of our percussionists had some gum on him, so I chewed up a piece and stuck some in the pad socket. Surprisingly, it lasted quite well through the performance, and when I got home that night I cleaned up the key and did the old "lighter and glue" trick.
I'm not sure if I would have done that for my grenadilla clarinet, (the one I used is a hard rubber) but it definitely worked in a really big pinch.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-05-04 14:05
Gigaday wrote, "Is this normal? Or was it just that poor quality pads were used? I only play about an hour a day."
Not normal. Poor quality pads, or damaged during installation, or very sharp or rough tone hole edges, or you are pressing far too hard in order to accommodate poorly sealing pads.
Whatever... It should not be happening.
BTW, Buffet used to use superb pads decades ago. In recent years they have often had a very brittle membrane.
Post Edited (2010-05-04 14:06)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-04 15:33
And be careful when polishing the keys with a silvercloth - you can damage the pads if you accidentally catch them with the cloth.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-04 16:18
As OP I find this all very interesting, thanks. It sounds like I should get myself a set of leather pads and replace them as necessary. All the lower joint pads are fine and the worst ones are the top joint underside.
Question: someone said that it didn't matter if a pad went discoloured (eg brown) but it would seem to me that this would be a sign of the skin leaking and the felt going brown as moisture penetrates. Lower joint pads are all still white.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-05-04 22:51
Pads go brown when the dye (applied to the timber) leaches into the pad membrane. It does not seem to affect pads much, but possibly makes the membrane a little more brittle.
"It sounds like I should get myself a set of leather pads and replace them as necessary."
Leather pads are rather unsuitable for some clarinets, eg where the sealing line is quite close to the perimeter of the pad.
IMO leather does not do too well in an environment that alternates between dry and very wet. It eventually becomes absorbent enough to soak up water, and pass water on to the felt, Both materials can swell, and they eventually harden, perhaps from the deposition of minerals.
If high quality bladder pads are letting you down in wet places, then cork or Omni pads would be preferable.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-05 15:15
With treated leather pads, they won't suffer like untreated ones. But bear in mind cheap leather pads that are treated aren't anywhere as near as good as good quality ones as the cheaper ones will tend to stick and also the plastic coating can come off. On silver plated metal clarinets you may find the chemicals used to treat some leather pads will accelerate the rate of tarnish.
Buy leather pads from a good source - not off eBay as they could be Chinese and treated with something pretty nasty. Leather settees and other chairs made in China for one of the UK's biggest furniture sellers have caused allergic reactions with some people who bought them as the leather had been treated in the tanning process with some toxic chemical banned in the EU, though still used in China.
The natural colour in unstained grenadilla will also stain pads brown. When clarinet bodies are dyed, they're usually dyed before the tonehole bedplaces are cut, so it's not the dye (which is a blue-black alcohol based dye) but the natural colour the leeches out with condensation. Even Gore-Tex pads get stained by the natural wood colour.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-07-10 14:26
Unabashed by the fact that I received the disapproval that I expected when I started this thread, I have pursued my experiments with pads a bit further.
If you recall I had used masking tape to repair a split pad. This worked fine but I discovered that the adhesive on masking tape dissolves in water so it didn't seem like a longterm solution. I looked at buying replacement pads but it all seemed a bit complicated and this hot glue business and making sure that they sealed properly seemed rather daunting.
So I went back to considering neoprene. Now people said (people that I know know what they are talking about) that a) they would make the feel very spongy and b) they were too easy to fit. <g>
It seems that you can't actually buy neoprene pads and frustrated by not being able to find a source of suitable neoprene, I bought a ladies' slimming belt for 2.50 euros - this contains enough 1mm neoprene to last me a lifetime. I had to peel the fabric backing off, but it came away easily. I removed the keys with faulty pads and cut the felt/skin tops off the existing pad with a razor knife (craft knife) leaving just the cardboard. With a small pair of scissors I cut a piece of neoprene and attached it with contact adhesive, when the adhesive dried I trimmed it to fit, again with scissors.
This worked perfectly for the two pads with split skins so I then went on the do all the pads on the upper joint. The only adjustment I had to make was to adjust the shim in the upper/lower joint link as the neoprene was very slightly different thickness from the original pad.
I don't know how long the neoprene pads will last, they have been on for a couple of months now and work fine. The fact that they are not perfectly round matters not at all and since the material in black you would have to look really close to notice.
They are not at all spongy, but then all the top joint pads except for two are normally closed.
And, for the record and the info of the person who said something like "we might as well be putting the pads on with Blutack", the Bb/A side trill key pad IS held on with Blutack as the glue came adrift. As it's normally closed I doubt it will ever be a problem.
I am only posting this for information should anyone else ever think of trying neoprene for pads on their horn. And would like to stress that I have the greatest respect for the professionals who repair instruments every day. I like to tinker with the easy things I wouldn't dare try anything that couldn't easily be undone should it go wrong.
Tony
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-07-10 14:40
gigaday wrote:
> I am only posting this for information should anyone else ever
> think of trying neoprene for pads on their horn. And would like
> to stress that I have the greatest respect for the
> professionals who repair instruments every day. I like to
> tinker with the easy things I wouldn't dare try anything that
> couldn't easily be undone should it go wrong.
I got flamed when I used home-made (from fine-cell EVA ("moss rubber")) pads on my metal clarinet, just for kicks. They're still doing great, and I have used them for selected keys on my "regular" clarinets as well.
You're the one whom you're doing this for, and as long as it works for you, don't bother. And if it doesn't, undo, case dismissed.
--
Ben
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-07-12 11:37
Thanks for the info on EVA closed cell foam, Tictactux.
It's good to know about modern materials that can be used in our hobby. I use synthetic reeds only these days because I found I was wasting too much time fettling cane reeds. And if I need to buy a new instrument I will definitely look at the hard rubber alternatives. The clarinet was evolved greatly over time since its beginnings as the chalumeau and I'm sure it will continue to do so.
Tony
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-07-22 03:23
I do a fair amount of repair and to put it mildly I hate Neoprene pads.
I prefer cork pads in the upper register as well as the first finger key of the lower register. Once you set these properly the cork they should last for many years.
I also still prefer skin pads for the lower register. You have to be very careful when seeding them because the pads can get a bubble when heating them. You may have to go through 3 or 4 pads before you get them to seal.
I haven't used leather, so I can't faithfully express an honest opinion.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2011-07-22 07:31
Bob, you say:
"I do a fair amount of repair and to put it mildly I hate Neoprene pads."
You don't say why. Can you explain a little?
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