 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2010-02-13 00:30
We are playing Offenbach at a concert on Sunday, and as second clarinet I have plenty of measures where I have to play oompa-oompa style OFF the beat. No matter how hard I concentrate, I always end up following the violins and playing ON the beat after a few bars. Does anyone have any tips for getting it right please?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-02-13 00:53
Think of them in larger groups, in 2, maybe 4 offbeats (or 3 or 6, etc., as meter dictates).
That is, instead of counting it
rest NOTE
rest NOTE
rest NOTE
rest NOTE
Think of it as
rest NOTE rest NOTE
or
rest NOTE rest NOTE rest NOTE rest NOTE
etc.
However, don't actually think "rest" about any of the rests, except maybe the first of any grouping, so
rest NOTE - NOTE - NOTE - NOTE
rest NOTE - NOTE - NOTE - NOTE
In my head, it goes something like
hnn DAT - DAT
hnn DAT - DAT
or
hnn DAT - DAT - DAT - DAT
hnn DAT - DAT - DAT - DAT
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-02-13 01:35
Do not breathe during each rest. The rest doesn't mean breathe...it means don't sound.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-02-13 02:13
beejay wrote:
> ... I always end up following the violins and playing
> ON the beat after a few bars. Does anyone have any tips for
> getting it right please?
So stop every few bars (when you've caught up with the violins) take a breath (which you need to do sometime anyway) and get a fresh start. Also, if you're playing the "pas" it doesn't hurt to listen and find the "ooms" so you can play off of them. Offbeats are much easier if you can hear the beats clearly somewhere.
Karl
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2010-02-13 12:24
In addition to listening to the violins for the "oom"s, it might also help to actually "play" an imaginary note on the "oom" (make sure it isn't audible). It gives you something to focus on so that the place where the "pah" unconsciously wants to move is already occupied.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-02-13 12:54
I tap my toe, or even stamp my heel, on the beats, working off that to play the back-beats.
Talk to a friendly horn player. They make a living playing PAH PAHs to other player's OOMs.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-02-13 13:45
I use the toes of both feet, tapping inside my shoes so I don't make a noise. Left foot is on the beat, right foot is off the beat. I've seen jazz sax players use a shoulder: dip the left shoulder back on the beat and lean forward and to the right to play the off-beat, for a steady size-to-side waggle. It's a natural move with the sax held to the right side, but once you're used to it, it works just as well with a clarinet, and it can be subtle. It doesn't have to be a big, obvious swoop and dip. Another thing you can do is tongue, silently, on the beat. Just play the note without breathing into it.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2010-02-13 14:40
I think that if you wait to HEAR the "oom" you are going to be late for the "pah". I like EEBaum's idea about stringing together a larger pattern so you're not thinking about just one set of beats and afterbeats at a time. That helps to keep your internal metronome moving ahead. If you have a recording you might try tapping then playing the passage starting with maybe four measures of afterbeats and then extending that by a couple of measures at a time when you are able to maintain the afterbeats.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-02-13 15:23
I'd be careful about foot-tapping. About 90% of the time, when I see foot tapping for offbeats (my own foot included), the offbeats are out of time.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-13 16:53
I question the use of ANY superfluous physical manifestation of rhythm. The sound that is in the air IS THE RHYTHM. Tapping, twitching, twisting .....whatever..... is by any stretch of the imagination an extra thing that we throw in as a crutch and yet it becomes worse than that, it becomes the very thing that gets in the way of reacting to the sound that we SHOULD be listening to and the sounds that we are producing.
I do appreciate the comment of "Clarinetwife" who implies that reacting to the nearest "on the beat moment" may be too late, however, reacting to what IS SOUNDING (perhaps the two down beats previous to that) is imperative.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-02-13 17:19
Playing together -- say, for simplicity, between two players -- isn't about one player reacting to another. It's about the two players sharing a model of what the music is doing.
Rehearsal is the process of the creation of that model, which can then be updated in real time by what actually happens. So, you don't play with the other person; you both play together with 'it'.
Physical movement as a reference can help that, interimly -- but it gets in the way ultimately, because it takes time to update a physical movement.
Think of getting on a moving bus. You deal, not with what you have to do, but with your model of what you, and the bus, are both doing.
Ball players appreciate this very well. There's just no time to react to the details of what happens unless you have a rich repertoire of internal models. Our cortical processing speeds, not to mention the speeds of our nerve impulses, are just too slow.
So, try to have a good model of what the music does, and play with 'it'. (You can even play along with recordings, always with the intention of developing the model in your mind.)
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-13 17:52
"two players sharing a model of what the music is doing"
Tony- I think that is such a brilliant concept! I'm starting a new thread about this topic.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-13 17:57
I can see where this is going.............
but before we veer off course, the ball player reference is apt. A major league batter must make some very quick decisions before committing to his reaction. Is he looking at a curve ball? A slider? A fast ball right over the plate? A proper reaction comes from years of experience but MUST BE IN THE MOMENT..............or you're not.
A wonderful lesson for ALL of us was evident on an episode of "So You Think You Can Dance" this past Summer. A normally wonderfull dancer gava a bland performance, but before he was dismissed, the judge (Nigel?) commented that it was clear that the dancer was thinking of the final result whilst dancing rather than dancing "in the moment."
We really all should take something away from that.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-02-13 18:00
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> I can see where this is going....>>
Really? I can't.
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-13 18:10
About the topic of playing on the off-beat:
I think that it's very important to establish a feeling of the subdivision which is taking place in order to be able to play the off-beats. So if the piece is in 4/4 and your playing off-beats every second 8th, then you need to have an internal subdivision going on in 8th notes. A good way to develop this is to practise with a metronome ON THE OFF-BEAT. Jazz players do this. So if you're in 4/4 you count the beats in your head but the metronome always clicks on the "and":
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
When I started doing this I found it difficult, and had to slow the metronome way down to even start to feel the actual beats in my imagination. But after a while it becomes second nature, and at that point you've developed a strong internal sense of subdivision and shouldn't have problems playing on the off-beat.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-13 20:04
Paul Aviles wrote:
Quote:
but before we veer off course, the ball player reference is apt. A major league batter must make some very quick decisions before committing to his reaction. Is he looking at a curve ball? A slider? A fast ball right over the plate? A proper reaction comes from years of experience but MUST BE IN THE MOMENT..............or you're not.
Well, yes and no. While I'd agree that you do have to adapt quickly to what you hear around you in an ensemble (how else can you play in tune, for instance), the crucial difference between a baseball player and a musician in an ensemble is that in baseball the pitcher is trying to strike you out, whereas the musicians in an ensemble are trying to work together to execute a common plan.
A somewhat better analogy from the sports world would be that of (American) football players. They have to react quickly, too, but they usually have some kind of pre-choreographed play they are trying to execute together. If they don't all have a good idea of how the play goes (from practice and coaching), it won't go well.
Quote:
A wonderful lesson for ALL of us was evident on an episode of "So You Think You Can Dance" this past Summer. A normally wonderfull dancer gava a bland performance, but before he was dismissed, the judge (Nigel?) commented that it was clear that the dancer was thinking of the final result whilst dancing rather than dancing "in the moment."
I didn't watch that show, but from what you're saying, it seems to me that the judge in that case was mostly referring to the dancer's lack of personal engagement with the expressive aspects of the dance routine. There's nothing wrong with having a model in your mind of what you are trying to do--the problem is being too mentally and emotionally detached from the model to achieve its expressive ends.
Post Edited (2010-02-15 18:24)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-02-14 22:38
Tony -
What, has hell frozen over? And at any rate, I refuse to enter into a battle of wits with the unarmed.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2010-02-14 23:21)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-02-15 07:18
Ken,
During the thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=315001&t=314881
…someone who I think of as a perceptive observer wrote privately to me:
"I know what Ken is doing, as does anyone else with half a brain. KEN knows what he's doing."
So I let the matter drop, in the hope that others really were able to see through your face-saving manoeuvres. But the mental picture of you banging your foot on the floor to keep in time, plus your unhelpful recommendation of the technique to others, proved too irritating to me, and I felt moved to post the link again, to give anyone interested the chance of another look.
I wasn't ever interested in a battle of wits with you, especially now, considering the formidable armoury of second-hand repartee you display above; I just wanted you to behave in a manner that would count as merely professional in many fields of endeavour.
But I suppose your field is different; what counts as 'professional' behaviour in a lawyer can seem bizarre to ordinary people.
Tony
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-02-20 15:46
...back to the original question - what really helped me was to develop the idea of a "mute" note, kinda special tonguing that produces no sound, a mental hiatus, whatever you call it.
You do play the beats "muted", followed by the -pah! that sounds. You can get into the mood by making "hngg!" with your diaphragm and your throat (or simply short-hum the beat) and play the offbeat normally.
After a while you'll find yourself humming silently and playing offbeats like a Tyrolean Tubist with ease.
The kicker was to realise that a rest isn't merely a tacet but a transparent note (with a rather special articulation) that deserves to be played like every other note.
Liquorice has it more scientific with the subdivisions where you play the "and"s (but still do the 1s and 2s etc.).
I'd avoid foot-tapping. It looks unprofessional and can be very distracting to others, especially when not in sync with the rest of the band.
--
Ben
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-02-21 00:02
Two points... I have some doubt about the article that Tony refers to. I believe I have already questioned it but no one has responded. Specifically from the article " The choice of bore size used also dictates the amount of undercutting possible. The smaller the bore the greater the amount of undercutting possible and the larger the bore the smaller the amount of undercutting possible. The degree of undercutting has a marked effect on tone colour. "
Would it not be possible to enlarge the chimney height of a big bore clarinet to make undercutting just the same as a small bored instrument? ie top of each tone hole is higher. I guess if you finish the top of the tone holes before doing the bore you are stuck but is there any reason why you can't change the tone hole finishing to allow for a big bore. Just asking...
Regarding off beats of the original question..... try thinking of your note leading to the violin note...pickup if you will. Think of the violins following you! not preceding you. Practice and 2, and 3 and 4 and 1 with small accents on the ands Keep it light also or you will start falling behind. It is most likely the tempo is the problem. You're just not used to the speed. Practice with a metronome. Keep at it.
Freelance woodwind performer
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