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Author: ShazamaPajama
Date: 2009-11-03 07:30
so the president's own marine band came and played at UNLV tonight. i know a lot of you have military band experience. what kind of approach do the directors take on their bands.
like when i think of the marine band, i think of very stiff people playing perfectly in time and playing every single note like a synthesizer or midi. and i think of a band playing lifelessly.
i'm sure thats not the case. but what makes the marine band sound different than the chicago symphony orchestra? (except the fact that one of them is a band and the other and orchestra)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-11-03 10:24
Sorry you had that impression. I have heard them as recently as a year ago and found them to be the best professional band in the country right now thanks to a very musical director.
Perhaps acoustical factors lessened your impression. The Marine Band does get stuck playing in some really bad performance spaces when on the road.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2009-11-03 12:45
There's is a reason they have the nick name "The Machine Band". But the thing about any of the top bands is who's in charge! There have been "must have" military band gigs where when there is a command change people try to join one of the "other" bands.
Take the Air Force band, that gig went from the gig everyone wanted to have, to a gig everyone wanted to get out of in 2 command changes.
But what makes the difference between the Chicago symphony and The Marine Band, Air Force band, Army Field Band, the Navy band is this: The audience they are playing for, and the effect they're trying achieve. When one of the military bands performs, the effect they are eliciting is this: an audience member who seeing a bunch of clean cut young fit americans, feels that he or she is safe in a country being defended by such technically proficient musicians. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact I actually think there is some "artistic honesty" in that Idea. It's a commercial, and military bands do it well. Maybe you just weren't one of the prescribed "target" audience.
Shazama did you go to the concert? or did you just hear they were playing in town? They probably played the Community college, that's where the Field Band used to play when we were out there. If you went what was YOUR impression of the concert? If you didn't go, why not, and why do you care what anyone else's impression is anyway.
Later everyone. Back to practicing.
Tom Puwalski, former Soloist and principal clarinetist with the U.S. Army Field Band, Author of the "Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer", soon to be released, Clarinet Basic Training and More Klezmer, a play along guide to my favorite gig tunes.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-11-03 14:03
You said:
I think.....
I'm sure that's not the case...
Why bother to speculate, guess and prejudge? Go to a concert and hear for yourself. Otherwise you do the ladies and gentlemen of the group a serious injustice. They are mucicians of a very high level and are excellent at what they do. Why do you sauspect they would somehow be less human than their counterparts in a civilian symphony?
Jeff
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-03 14:34
I have a student playing in the Marine Band. As a matter of fact I have students playing in several of the top service bands and they're all fine musicians that competed against stiff competition for their job the same way that orchestral musicians have for their jobs. I know in the case of the Marine band, as well as many of the others, many of the players participate in performing chamber music concerts as well and I would hardly call them machines, I think they just try to play as well as they can, the same way we do in the BSO when we perform. Much depends on the music you're playing and how the conductor leads the ensemble.
They are professionals. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2009-11-03 17:39
I've always thought these service bands play for specific audiences. That's why there are so many ensembles within an overall band itself. Band members' behavior is dictated by the event and uniform.
I like it when the players wear civilian "comfort clothes" and the soloists look like Hollywood club types. OK, so I love the jazz bands.
Then again, there's nothing like standing to attention many years after last uniform wear, listening to my service song played by my service band. I remember the airmen I worked with and the airmen in my family who fought in the big wars.
Mary Jo
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Author: Joel K.
Date: 2009-11-03 18:41
I just saw them play at UCLA last Monday Night. It was the best band performance I've ever heard. The performance was very musical and far from "stiff" and had phenomenal clarinet ensemble playing. They played a transcription of Berlioz's Les Franc-Juges overture which was astounding. To top things off, John Williams was in attendance, was introduced, acknowledged the applause and later conducted his March from "1941" as the encore. Fabulous concert.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-03 19:12
I don't know too much about the military's bands, per se, (although the recordings I own of U.S. military bands are all quite good), but I have observed some differences between being a wind player in a band as opposed to being in an orchestra.
I do think that on a certain level, a greater degree of uniformity among players (especially clarinetists) is often required in a band than in an orchestra because you have many more players playing the same part. I think this necessitates a slightly more mechanical approach to playing than what you can achieve in an orchestra.
Post Edited (2009-11-03 19:12)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-11-03 19:49
I hear the Marine Band live several times a year when they play at George Mason University in my neighborhood. I find the playing usually very expressive, in addition to being technically impeccable. Perhaps Devin's perception of a mechanical performance has a lot to do with mental and physical fatigue at the end of a long and arduous tour.
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Author: rossbu
Date: 2009-11-03 22:48
Hi all,
I'm a former member of the Marine band, and while I considered myself a "section" player (sax section to be accurate, although, they used me when needed in the clarinet and flute section also), I have never known a more musically talented group. Awesome natural and developed abilities, broad talents - unreal jazz players, masterful classical players - you name it - super dixieland players.
My two cents worth - very musical BUT also technically gifted as a group.
Burt
bross141@comcast.net
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Author: maskedridersean
Date: 2009-11-04 02:33
I think the unmusical perception is due to the fact military bands play so many marches. Musicians love to hate marches. Many who style themselves "orchestral" also look down on band music. Its true that the band repertoire is not as deep or celebrated as orchestral music, there are many good pieces that don't get enough credit. This is usually worse with string players, its pretty hard to be a clarinetist these days and not have played in a band.
I heard the Army Field Band this summer and they played very well.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2009-11-04 05:04
Having auditioned for these bands (just missing in the finals each time...apparently not the right sound) and playing for the MACOM bands, these people are top notch. If something came across as "flat", blame the conductor. These players could play anywhere and are extremely talented. I salute all of them.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-11-04 12:07
Hi,
I heard the Marine Band last year here in Toledo and they were fabulous. In the past the Navy Band has been here and really dazzled the audience. Last Saturday, I was in Ann Arbor at Hill Auditorium and heard the U of M bands (Concert, Symphony, and Marching) who were all very good but not even close to what the service bands can offer. I believe that there are several U of M grads in all of the service bands.
HRL: Former member of the 1959 - 61 Ft. Gordon Signal Training Center Band
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-04 14:19
I have a friend who is a former member of the Marine Corps band. He commented to me once that the biggest advantage of having "US Marine Corp Band" on his resume is that he was often hired for gigs without having to audition.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-11-04 15:37
"Musicians love to hate marches."
Not necessarily! Maybe snobbish musicians don't like playing marches. For me playing marches with a fine band is a ball for clarinet players -- the parts are usually interesting and challenging, and the spirit can be exhilarating. I can understand why French horn players and bass clarinetists might not enjoy playing the repetitive "oompahs" in many marches. And no one plays marches any better than "The President's Own."
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-11-04 18:09
Larry,
Here, here !!!!
The Semper Fidelis rendering by The Marine Band is awe inspiring.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-11-04 20:24
There is nothing inherently wrong with playing marches.....
It's just the Marching Band experience that destroys the beauty of the music. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Jeff
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2009-11-04 21:56
It could be the original post was based on the way the Marine Band looked during the performance, not the way it sounded.
I saw the Marine Band a few years ago in Albuquerque and my impression was that they all sat very still. I suppose you could say they looked like machines.
I saw the Air Force Band there some time later and they had a more normal (to me) amount of movement as they played.
Needless to say, both groups sounded great.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2009-11-08 14:36
From the way you wrote you question, it appears that you didn't actually attend the concert. Did you actually go?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-11-09 14:07
Living just outside Washington, D. C., I hear the "President's Own" Marine band often. Also, some of the band's musicians perform and otherwise participate every January at the International Saxophone Symposium I attend at the George Mason University Center for the Arts, in Fairfax, Virginia. The U. S. Navy Band organizes this first-class festival. Other performers include the Commodores (the Navy's jazz ensemble), the Interservice Saxophone Ensemble and members of the "Pershing's Own" U. S. Army Band.
I assure you, these military bands don't just play marches -- and the musicians are top-notch. There's nothing stiff about them. These are among the best bands I've ever heard.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-11-09 21:51
"what makes the marine band sound different than the chicago symphony orchestra?"
IMHO, one thing is that the muscianship of the President's Own is quite superior--player to player--than the CSO. Having played with musicians of the same instrument in college, the superior player won a position with the Marine Band and the other weaker player went to the CSO. Both were members of their respective brass sections. And I am certain that if one were able to compare marine band s(Washington) clarinets to the comparable CSO violin section, the technical and musical superiority would favor the marines. Certainly, any of the CSO clarinetists would fit nicely with the President's Own, however, I am referring to depth of talent in the larger sections, not the smaller ones.
BTW, I have heard many concerts, over the years, by the US Marine Band--in Washington, at Mid-West B & O Clinics and my home town and they have never played less than perfectly, techincally and musicially. On the other hand, I have heard the CSO play what I would kindly call, less than magnficent concerts, one in Orchestra Hall and one in Milwaukee's Pabst Theatre. I just think that musician to musician, the US Marine Band players are simply the better players and perhaps more dedicated to always performing at their best.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-11-09 22:26
William, when I auditioned for the DC Navy Band I was told by their Soloist John Coulehan that he thought that I was the best Clarinetist he had ever heard audition for the band.
So based on that - I'll dispute your statement.
They are great, and there are a few superior players, but they aren't as good as the CSO.
The CSO could teach many of them.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: William
Date: 2009-11-09 22:39
DB--I'm talking about the US Marine Band, not the US Navy. I stand by my original observation that the average US Marine Band member is better than the average CSO musician (again, not just the clarinets or other small sections, but in general). And, I think--as I said before--they are more dedicated to always performing with excellance (as well as more capable). I do agree, the CSO could teach the US Navy band a "thing or two".
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-11-09 23:08
I lump them all together as to me they all are equals.
Air Force, Marines, Army and the Navy are all excellent for the DC bands
For that matter so is the Naval Academy, Army Field Band and West Point.
Coast Guard Academy is very good also.
Is the Marine Band the most Elite? I don't think so, but that's where we disagree I guess
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Adrian
Date: 2009-11-10 15:55
My experience was that the bands were better than the conductors.
It would be great to hear a Rattle, Maazel, Slatkin conduct one of these big-time bands. Might be a real blast.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-11-10 16:10
DB, your point is well taken--they are all good :>) 'Nuff said...........
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-11-11 19:32
Apparently William thinks that player for player the U.S. Marine Band in Washington D.C. is musically superior to the Chicago Symphony!
One hardly knows whether to laugh or cry....
Clarinet Redux
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Author: ShazamaPajama
Date: 2009-11-12 06:12
this is very interesting. thank you tom puwalski, that is a very insightful deduction.
for those of you asking, no i didnt go to the concert. i just brought it up as like the intro to my question.
although i have never heard the cso live before either.
i have heard recordings of both ensembles, and from the recordings i can say without a doubt that each has a very characteristic sound that is their own.
i'm not interested in which band is better than the other, i am interested in how each group interprets the music they perform.
a colleague of mine told me that the marine band is more restricted to the ink on the page.
the cso follows more of a debussy quote - "generally speaking, I feel more and more that music, by its very essence, is not something that can flow inside a rigorous, traditional form. It consists of colors and of rhythmicized time."
so compare and contrast the approach each ensemble takes toward the music they play. (that was my question in essay question form)
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Author: rossbu
Date: 2009-11-12 10:18
Hi once again,
Again, I'll mention that I am a former member of the Marine Band and will tell you that in MHO:
1. None of these are "superior", etc. to the other - they are all great in their own way and have their signature style.
2. As for being better or not than the CSO or any other orchestra - same comment, not a question of who is best, etc. - when did music become a competitive sport? I got it, let's establish pro leagues with standings and have a superbowl of music. Honestly, I don't get the comment at all.
3. Probably the best evidence of the equality of these groups is, during my hitch at least, personnel switched from DC band to band, major orchestras to the band, etc. None of these people proclaimed any one or the other being superior.
just my 2 cents worth,
Burt
bross141@comcast.net
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-11-12 13:10
Burt said:
"As for being better or not than the CSO or any other orchestra - same comment, not a question of who is best, etc. - when did music become a competitive sport? I got it, let's establish pro leagues with standings and have a superbowl of music. Honestly, I don't get the comment at all."
Actually, WRCJ FM in Detroit does just that each year....they call it "The Symphony Bowl." It happens right before a similar football event.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-11-12 13:10)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-11-12 17:24
Burt wrote,
>>As for being better or not than the CSO or any other orchestra - same comment, not a question of who is best, etc. - when did music become a competitive sport? I got it, let's establish pro leagues with standings and have a superbowl of music.>>
I disagree with myself so often on this topic that anybody who wanted to out me as a wiffle-waffler probably could Google up the evidence in less time than it takes to let out a good squeak, but....
Yeah, I often think competition is anti-musical. I remember the Battle of the Bands (a broad term that included orchestras) we used to have in my county's school district. Even the church choirs competed in a similar competition. My school took great pride in our good competitive record. Meanwhile, my piano teacher held "piano parties" -- don't they sound innocent? -- at which all the nice little kids did everything except break each other's fingers. The competitions were nerve-wracking and I hated them quite a lot. Still, I have to admit that competition motivated me. There's no doubt in my mind that I practiced more and harder, and focussed my energy better, with something at stake.
I'm guessing something similar happens with adults, too; and adult military personnel, in one of the most intrinsically competitive work environments (with life and limb literally at stake in time of war), probably experience competitiveness as a constant factor in life, more intensely than most of us. Musical and sports rivalries can satisfy some of those killer ape instincts without actual mayhem.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2009-11-12 17:30)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-11-13 15:24
Would logically most of these CSO level players be in great orchestras..
I will also add good orchestral playing is something very hard to achieve in a band.
Although some may feel their is no difference between playing in a band and an orchestra I would say there is huge differences.
In orchestra you will be heard no matter whatr chair you are in ..in a band(ie a group that is quite large) it is alot easiier to hide behind the texture of your section.
I will also add that alot of band music is not only tiring but complete drudgery. Col. Bogey again for the millionth time!!! Yikes..that is like the bandsman story about the trumpet player who went to heaven because he never missed a high note..but the clarinet player who ended up in hell because he hated Marches! Rightly so...putput put put...put put..and those poor horns in band always on the off beat.. boom chuk boom chuk boom chuk ad infinitim... That does something to the psyche I am sure....boom thud thwack cymbal crash yuk!
I also know there were many a band piece Frederick Fennell deplored ....
It is too bad more bands don't do Clyde t. Smith pieces..there are also alot of great British band pieces like Hammersmith and the Holst Suites which are not only fun but require loads of technique.
Could explain why horn players are so frustrated in band...
However, if a Band is quite small..2 clarinets and 2 for each instrument you will find it much harder not only to hide but also to stagger breathe, phrase, etc.
A really fine small band is certainly more flexible in some regards..however a really fine group no matter the size is able to play with chamber like precision and delicacy.
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-11-13 16:28)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-11-14 02:46
I have the privilege of playing frequently with a fellow who spent a career in a US military band. He can sight read anything, he plays expressively, he can play as perfectly as a midi machine, but does not. He is insightful and helpful to lesser players like me.
I have the greatest respect for these folks. Think about it: a master's degree in music AND 20 years of daily practice with other accomplished musicians. Try to beat that.
Bob Phillips
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