 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-09 22:31
Attachment: Ridenour Eb clarinet announcement.png (326k)
Tom announced on Facebook that he's offering a new Eb clarinet.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2025-01-09 23:27
I’ve been hounding Tom for many years to do this! I’m in line to receive one of the first off the line. Looking forward to this.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2025-01-12 02:53
This will be lauded, but I can’t imagine how toy-like it’s going to sound.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-12 08:32
Attachment: Complete Leblanc Clarinet Brochure.pdf (1854k)
Attachment: Complete Vito Clarinet Brochure.pdf (994k)
J. J. wrote:
> This will be lauded, but I can’t imagine how toy-like it’s
> going to sound.
Considering that Ridenour also designed the Leblanc Concerto Eb...
1189EbS
The Concerto Eb soprano clarinet offers clarinetists what they would expect from an instrument with the Concerto name—an artist-quality instrument of great intonation, with the deeper tonal characteristics of the Bb soprano clarinet. Its high tones are particularly fine, with roundness and depth, free of the thin and strident traits often associated with Eb clarinets. The new Concerto Eb soprano clarinet is worthy of any professional clarinetist.
Specifications
Key: Eb
Key mechanism: 17 keys, 6 rings
Key style: Offset trill keys
Body material: Aged grenadilla wood
Pad cup style: Ronds bombés (rounded)
Key finish: Silver-plated
Mouthpiece: 2501
Case: Deluxe wood-shell
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-01-12 14:38
Re Leblanc concerto Eb clarinets. Ummm, what do you think will give you the most honest impression of an instrument? The advertising copy (written specifically in order to sell instruments to you) OR the fact that not one professional player can be identified playing that model of instrument... Hmmmmm. How many days ago were you born is another question that comes to mind.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-12 16:25
donald wrote:
> Re Leblanc concerto Eb clarinets. Ummm, what do you think will
> give you the most honest impression of an instrument? The
> advertising copy (written specifically in order to sell
> instruments to you) OR the fact that not one professional
> player can be identified playing that model of instrument...
> Hmmmmm. How many days ago were you born is another question
> that comes to mind.
I've been on this planet for well over 40 revolutions around the sun, thank you.
Either you're an independent thinker, willing to give something a try, and can rely on your own evaluation & judgment, OR you have to rely on professional endorsements to make your decision.
I guess you're the latter.
I will also concede to the fact that Leblanc corporation is out of business, but not necessarily because of an inferior product.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-01-12 16:55
It's true that the Concerto/Opus etc clarinets that TR designed were good instruments, I've owned a Concerto Bb and it was very nice. However they didn't provide what people wanted/needed, regardless of what the advertising copy tells you.
Nothing like "real world conditions" to sort out the sheep from the goats where instruments are concerned. I have a (Buffet R13) A clarinet that is TOO DARK, sound amazing when I'm on my own or with a piano or playing a very exposed solo.... BLENDS very easily, however when I need to be heard independently WITHIN a texture it's a total loss, the instruments just gets "lost". This is something none of my students, or fellow teachers who never perform professionally, would ever notice.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2025-01-12 21:25
David, you can feel whatever way you want about these instruments, but you don’t get to come in, post advertising copy, and then accuse someone else of not being an independent thinker. At least, not without someone pointing it out.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-12 22:12
J. J. wrote:
> David, you can feel whatever way you want about these
> instruments, but you don’t get to come in, post advertising
> copy, and then accuse someone else of not being an independent
> thinker. At least, not without someone pointing it out.
You're funny. I don't think you get the concept of doing research before making a decision.
This is a discussion forum. This is how it works: you post something and a discussion happens. I've been on various forums for 25 years.
While you can call it "advertising copy", I call it getting the facts - or at least the specs - from the (previous) manufacturer so you have a reference point for comparison.
So, let's recap:
- I posted the screenshot of Tom's announcement on Facebook about his new Eb clarinet offering.
- Then I posted a complete Leblanc brochure from the mid-1990's so you have the specs to compare (because Ridenour didn't offer that in his announcement)... and you call it "advertising."
- Then it was said that "no one plays that clarinet" which implies that one must have artist endorsement to consider a purchase rather than making an independent judgment and decision on one's own.
- Now you're saying that I'm just sharing "advertising copy." Which implies that I'm being a shill for the company.
It's a timely post worthy of discussion.
You're allowed your biases. Everyone has them.
It's interesting that some people like it and some people's biases are clearly being shown, even before testing the instrument itself.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-01-13 05:34
Hey you can buy 20 of them if you like, sometimes I really enjoy playing my plastic Vito, other times my 5 key copy, a yamaha here and there. There are lots of nice clarinets to play, have fun. But you can't copy and paste an advertising blurb and call it "research" and expect to be taken seriously.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-14 02:48
So, what you're telling me, is that you don't like getting information from the source?
I don't know what your definition of 'research' is, but I usually like to start from the source and go from there.
If you call the source 'advertising', there's always an element of truth to that.
I've been in financial services for over 20 years, so I'll use an example from my industry: It's like reading an annual report on a mutual fund. They're not going to tell you that they're not any good anymore compared to their competition and that you should move your money to something else.
They're going to reinforce their own self-serving message. That's expected.
But that doesn't mean I don't want to hear from them.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
Post Edited (2025-01-14 02:51)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2025-01-14 02:52
Looking forward to hearing more about this new instrument.
My Bb Ridenour clarinet (which I like, but officially call it my "Battle Axe" since it is the backup horn that I usually play outdoors or in extreme weather, or when I'm forced to keep an instrument in the car for extended periods of time) has really good intonation and very nice tone -- characteristics that I hope translate over to the Eb version.
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-01-14 12:39
Yeah but it's NOT "information" that you're sharing, you're sharing advertising copy.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-14 19:15
Your interpretation is so baffling to me. You must be so afraid of "being sold" something? I wonder what your story is behind your stance? (Did somebody hurt you?)
Of course "A person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" always holds true.
I wouldn't expect a manufacturing company to share their engineering specs behind a product. That's intellectual property.
But I do want to see some kind of 'fact sheet' and a statement from the manufacturer - regardless of product.
I then take that information and keep it in mind as I form my own opinion on its own merits and by comparison.
But that's okay.
You do you.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-15 00:44
As it relates to Leblanc's demise, I certainly think that the single greatest factor in a brand's success is sales.
And a good Buffet can certainly hold its own against any competitor, and the brand didn't become the industry leader consistently producing junk instruments: much that some new ones I've played in stores were severely lacking: maybe nothing that a good servicing couldn't address--but maybe something that should have been addressed in France, not at retail.
But that said, the economics of clarinet sales, IMHO, is a study that doesn't easily conform to purely supply and demand of some standardized commodity like Oreo cookies, where price rules the day and the item is entirely consumed in the span of days, not the decades a musical instrument survives, which further fuels the slowness of brand change/shift.
Buffet is steeped in tradition of the teachers who played them, whose students followed in suit to then become the next generation's of teachers espousing similar philosophies/brand loyalties an in industry where no one manufacturer of instruments played by the pros (e.g. Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Backun?) consistently offers a product that IMHO is just leaps and bounds better than the other.
And in such a world, where clarinet sales are such a niche market to begin with, it can be hard for even strong brands like Leblanc to survive, although I think competition plays a greater role today, thanks to the internet, than in times past.
I own a Ridenour "A" clarinet. It plays well and in tune, but is more resistant than my Buffets. It's my understanding that Tom describes this as his wares fighting back against the forces that might render them out of tune.
I'd be curious to see just how much better his Eb's intonation is and how much more resistant it is compared to competitor's offerings. I've never played Eb but have taken interest in videos like those of Jessica Phillips, and her arsenal of alternate fingers that exist towards the goal of playing in tune.
https://youtu.be/yk3MpOWRaEo?si=zb5E50Cm1NwCYcha&t=156
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-15 01:32
^^^ THIS! ^^^
Yes, most companies don't survive (although Leblanc certainly had a long history) because of lack of sales. With lack of sales, companies struggle to remain relevant. Hence, the 'Hail Mary' moves of designing the Bliss clarinet and partnership with Backun back 10-15 years ago.
I've never played Eb - ever. And I'm still so out of practice myself that I need to just focus in my Bb playing for a while, and possibly add an A, a C, and perhaps a bass clarinet.
However, with Tom's expanding line of affordable and amazing instruments, I would certainly consider adding an Eb at some point, but it would be after getting the bass.
I'm sure that once he's made his official announcement and put it on his website, he'll record his own demo tracks and tuning tests done on his YouTube channel so at least we can sample his playing skills on the instrument.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2025-01-15 01:45
I said it would sound like a toy, based on my own extrapolation of the Ridenour hard rubber instruments' current characteristics. You posted some advertising copy about a long-dead, forgotten instrument that is never seen in the professional world as some sort of counterpoint. It's not that complicated.
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-01-15 04:40
Good grief. If you don’t want to read old advertisement materials, then don’t!
But I agree this is a discussion board, and it’s interesting stuff! So thanks for posting from me, David.
I wouldn’t say the Opus/Concerto series is forgotten. In fact they have a bit of a legendary reputation, for what they are. I have an Opus in Bb and have played it professionally.
Personally I’ll be interested to try one out. I have a very good Eb already, but I wouldn’t play it outdoors or lend it to anyone. If this one is as good or better than say a Buffet E11, it’s going to be a good option for those financially restricted.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-15 11:33
Really it is sad and disappointing to read some of the above comments. Good on you David for sticking up for yourself. I would be embarrassed if I posted some of the comments you have received. I can't be bothered commenting on their failed incompetent, non-factual arguments. Hopefully the people monitoring the comments start removing some of these 'people'. This should be a community not a herd of rude people.
Post Edited (2025-01-15 14:29)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-01-15 16:35
Without having anything to say on the main topic, I love the construction, "I can't be bothered commenting on their failed incompetent, non-factual arguments."
Cheers!
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-01-15 17:09
The key function of advertising is to inform, not to mislead. It might not represent an unbiased all-encompassing explanation, but people are capable of making value judgments which allow them to benefit from the information.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-15 19:54
Please pardon this potential thread hijacking post.
Strictly because I'm curious, and nothing more, does anyone know what brand of E flat clarinet--at least the upper and lower joints (assuming even these two sections aren't seamless in her instrument) Jessica Phillips plays?
I realize that much of the instrument is Backunized--by which I mean to say that, as a Backun artist, she has incorporated at the very least Backun's B flat reed accepting tulip wood E flat barrel and one of their E flat bells as well (with, by way of the video I linked above, a hole in it--I'm not sure if this hole is standard.)
But it's my understanding, perhaps incorrect, that Backun doesn't market an E flat instrument (maybe that's wrong) proper, just accessories, so I was wondering what's "between the barrel and bell" of her Efer. 
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-01-15 20:11
Call me somewhat OCD but I do find the mix of woods and design such a mess. Maybe it's just me.
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-01-15 23:59
Correct, Backun doesn’t have an Eb available to the public. However they have made (or heavily modified?) at least 2 that I know of for their artists.
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Author: ClarinetGod
Date: 2025-01-16 07:12
why buy a ridenour eb clarinet when you can buy a buffet tosca eb clarinet
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-16 09:24
Check out the Stephen Fox Ebs with the vent hole for the higher notes e.g. top E and up. He has an extra hole and pad. From experience his work is fantastic, the horns are better than... And the price is unbeatable. I have two basset clarinet lower joints for about one third the price of the current retail of other brands for a basset clarinet.
Tuning wise IMO the Bb stays at pitch all the way down to lowB phenomenal.
The A drops away in pitch down there which is well within the normal amount.
The Jessica Phillips YouTube does seem to be saying it's by Backun/heavily modded, lucky her.
I did extensive re-tuning and modified the keys on my Eb. Sadly Jessica is not knocking on my door😀 Tulipwood bells and barrels are funky though. On mine I have shortened my bell and increased the flare a bit. As I don't need to cut through the sound is a bit sweeter/less edge.
Are you going to buy a Ridenour David?
Post Edited (2025-01-16 10:21)
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2025-01-16 19:49
ClarinetGod wrote:
> why buy a ridenour eb clarinet when you can buy a buffet tosca
> eb clarinet
Can every professional player afford a Buffet Tosca?
I don't know how the Ridenour Eb(I wasn't the most receptive towards their older instruments) will turn out to be, but affordability(compared to most Buffets, Yamahas, etc.) will be one of it- and Ridenour's- biggest selling points.
Josh
Post Edited (2025-01-16 19:49)
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-01-16 20:39
Why buy a Ridenour over a Buffet? Easy, 2 options of reasons:
1. Because of affordability.
2. Because it is better in some way. (None of us know this yet since it’s not out, but it may be. It also may not be)
For an anecdote I’ve played on 2 C clarinets. A vintage Buffet, and a Ridenour. The Ridenour was (IMO) better in every way than the Buffet (tone, response, tuning) except for quality of keywork. A pro symphony principal also tried the Ridenour instrument in question and said he liked it better than his personal C clarinet. So take from that what you may…
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-16 20:44
crazyclari wrote:
> Are you going to buy a Ridenour David?
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-01-16 10:21)
I already have a Ridenour AureA Bb. I'd get an A, C, and a low-C Bass before getting the Eb. Never played an Eb before.
I'm not a professional clarinetist. I just play for fun and just joined a community concert band a couple of weeks ago.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-16 20:48
J. J. wrote:
> I said it would sound like a toy, based on my own extrapolation
> of the Ridenour hard rubber instruments' current
> characteristics. You posted some advertising copy about a
> long-dead, forgotten instrument that is never seen in the
> professional world as some sort of counterpoint. It's not that
> complicated.
J.J.:
When you originally posted these ideas of toy like sound on this thread I initially assumed them a product of simply the higher pitched sounds across all manufacturer's E flat clarinets.
From the above I can now conclude that this is your opinion of Ridenour Clarinet Products (RCP) more current product offerings, and of course your right to have such beliefs.
But, as an owner of one of his "A" clarinets, it is my opinion, for all the possible limitations I might find in the instrument (which would be minimal) that the color of the sound I and many others produce playing his wares, not to mention the solid intonation, is one of its strong suits.
I am glad that Tom makes clarinets. My relatively rare need for an "A" pitched instrument relative to my B flat, allowed me to not break the bank acquiring one of his.
I have no financial horse in this race but am glad that he is leading the industry in showing that clarinets not only need not be made of wood, but that: dare I say it: clarinets best not be made of wood given the material's propensity to crack or be dimensionally unstable--all more so in a world in which quality African Blackwood supplies are dwindling: loving my golden era R13 Buffets though I do.
Post Edited (2025-01-16 21:37)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-16 21:09
Attachment: Law of Diffusion of Innovation.jpg (19k)
ClarinetGod wrote:
> why buy a ($2k) ridenour eb clarinet (that won't ever crack and (should have) a wonderful sweet tone) when you can buy a buffet tosca eb clarinet (for 5x the price, be concerned about intonation problems, and possible cracking)
Fixed it for you. 😁
I am not a professional clarinetist. While I like participating in these discussions, no one has to take my word as an endorsement for anything. Even if I was, we all have our own minds and preferences.
In reading unsolicited reviews on Ridenour's site regarding his hard rubber clarinets, there have been plenty of others who eventually sell their far higher priced instruments to keep a lower-priced quality clarinet.
Now, you'd have to judge them for yourself to see if that's really accurate or not or if "anyone in their right mind would do that."
But it does take a bit of courage to step out from a boutique mentality to try something different and lower cost. The longer we're in a given mentality, the harder it is to break free from it, or to even want to find out if that mentality is truly serving our best interests or not.
When I think of the 'cost/benefit' ratio (not that it's an exact science) of what I play compared to what else is out there, I think I'd prefer to advocate for parents and students to explore lower cost but high quality alternatives.
I cringe when I look at some of these websites selling new intermediate clarinets for $1,500+.
As a parent myself (G21, B19, and B17, but none in music other than singing), I think of the financial pressures that parents are under... and imagine their child coming home from school one day saying, "Dad, I need $4,000 to buy a new clarinet. This one is holding me back."
Not a car... a clarinet.
Tom is solving a major problem for students and parents alike... as long as the instrument will perform. (I already had my rant on my instrument last month. I still feel foolish that it was the thumb rest throwing me off, but I didn't realize it.)
Tom is making clarinets that he himself performs on, can machine to far tighter tolerances, and beacuse he doesn't need wood billets to store, age, and machine, they can be far less expensive for the manufacturing process.
While I'm not an environmentalist, you don't have to cut down trees for the material. Rubber comes from the rubber tree and you don't need to chop it down to make the instrument.
For $4,000 you can get a matching set of Bb and A clarinets and still have some money left over.
I appreciate innovation where I can.
When Simon Sinek talks about "The Law of Diffusion of Innovation":
- 2.5% are innovators (they wait in line for the new iPhone 25 to come out)
- 13.5% are early adoptors (they'll buy it after a few months it's been out)
- 34% are early majority (they don't mind not having the latest and greatest, but they'll upgrade when they feel it's 'safe' to do so)
- 34% are late majority (they're still using flip phones)
- 16% are laggards (they're still using rotary phones)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVXuN2drSpg
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-16 22:48
David:
I take no issue with Sinek's findings except to say, and I mean this sort of satirically, the "X" axis of his graph--if you get my drift--might as well be the logarithm of the passage of time in the clarinet world given the resistance to change. 
Again, not to hijack this thread, and do know that I am a big RCP supporter, I am curious, do others find his clarinets more....resistive...involving more effort to play?
I have but Buffet to fairly compare it to.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-16 23:59
SecondTry wrote:
> David:
>
> I take no issue with Sinek's findings except to say, and I mean
> this sort of satirically, the "X" axis of his graph--if you get
> my drift--might as well be the logarithm of the passage of time
> in the clarinet world given the resistance to change.
🤣🤣🤣Conservatively... 100 years. Let's think of how quickly Buffet-Crampon's GreenLine clarinets have caught on?
> Again, not to hijack this thread, and do know that I am a big
> RCP supporter, I am curious, do others find his clarinets
> more....resistive...involving more effort to play?
>
> I have but Buffet to fairly compare it to.
No idea. We could read the comments on his site that were contributed by others on their impressions.
I'm coming back after a long time away from the clarinet, so I just wanted an instrument that would play well, perform well, and sound great. I wasn't doing any comparisons myself other than my memory on my old 1982 R13 I had back then.
Now the Homage mouthpiece (which I got for half off with the purchase of the AureA - which I figured was a no-brainer purchase)... has a very close facing. I found that mouthpiece difficult to play. Maybe it's still better than I am?
Unlike Vandoren and other mouthpiece manufacturers, there are no specs listed or reed strength recommendations for that mouthpiece. Only that it's modeled after Howard Wight's preferences? Had to do a bit of research on that.
I've gone to a Vandoren M15 which is a bit more open. I now have a B45 13-series which is a bit TOO open (but I got it for a good deal on Reverb). I'm thinking a BD5 will fit my needs quite nicely.
Then the Rovner Versa ligature that I got as the "successor" to the Eddie Daniel's ligature... also too stuffy for my taste. I could barely get a sound out of it. I now use a Vandoren Optimum.
That's been my own experience to go on.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-17 00:58
Hi David:
A couple of thoughts relevant to your mouthpiece quest.
First, in fairness, you describe "openness," which can be different from tip opening much that they are certainly correlated.
What I mean to say by this, for example, is that as an M15 player myself, it has a slightly more open tip than Vandoren's new product in the Black Diamond (BD) line....the BD2, but I actually find the BD2 slightly less restrictive. I suspect this has to do with the inner workings of the mouthpiece beyond its tip, which is not to say that other "external" to the mouthpiece factors, like the curvature and thickness of the mouthpiece's rails don't also factor in.
You might keep the BD2, in addition to the BD5 in mind. I'm not playing your setup, nor of course am I you, but I found the BD2 better from me than the BD5.
I also read on the forum, from someone other than me, that Harold Wright, of which the Homage mouthpiece was a homage to, liked--of Vandoren's lineup-- the 5RV.
Does that mean the Homage is closest to the 5RV of all the Vandoren offerings...your guess is as good as mine.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-17 03:36
Yes, besides tip opening, I'm also considering the relationship with the lay of the mouthpiece. The M15 and B45 both have a long lay, so I'm *thinking* that the medium lay with the slightly closer tip opening might be the right mix for me?
I've been debating between BD5 and BD4 - either in HD. They're so close to each other I doubt I'd notice the difference between those two?
We'll see. I'm in Southern California so maybe I'll visit the Vandoren Musician's Advisory Studio and just try a few out. (Maybe I'll give that carbon fiber ligature a shot too - just to see what the fuss is all about?) 😁
For the Homage mouthpiece, your assumption is as good as any. I got some #5 Rico Grand Concert reeds just for that mouthpiece to see if I can get the right performance out of it. The jury is still out on that... for now.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: ClarinetGod
Date: 2025-01-17 05:58
more affordable isn't better. $2k vs $9k is a big difference and i'd rather have the wooden one over the rubber any day. i would just buy a new one if it cracks
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-17 08:45
ClarinetGod wrote:
> more affordable isn't better. $2k vs $9k is a big difference
> and i'd rather have the wooden one over the rubber any day. i
> would just buy a new one if it cracks
Until you play them, do you have a criteria for making a true comparison? Remember that professional mouthpieces are made out of hard rubber. What if the entire instrument was made of the same material?
While Tom is certainly vested in his own opinion and experience, I submit his article on "The more it costs..." for your consideration. You don't have to agree with it, but I find it interesting as it challenges the myth that "higher cost must mean it's better."
https://www.rclarinetproducts.com/the-more-it-costs
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: ClarinetGod
Date: 2025-01-17 09:43
i got myself a $4k R13 and it plays much better than my $900 high school hard rubber clarinet. disproves everything he said
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-17 09:46
ClarinetGod wrote:
> i got myself a $4k R13 and it plays much better than my $900
> high school hard rubber clarinet. disproves everything he said
No... that was your experience. Your experience was with another (admittedly shoddy) brand.
That doesn't make you wrong, but it doesn't make him wrong either.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: ClarinetGod
Date: 2025-01-17 10:03
im pretty sure he wrote that article to help him promote his hard rubber clarinet business. very unbiased
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-01-17 13:02
"Until you play them" I don't know about you guys, but I've been "trying out" clarinets made by Tom for the last... oh.... 31 years. I spent a couple of hours working on reeds with him in 2005, he is very good at presenting his ideas/concepts clearly (or at least WAS) and shared a number of ideas that have been very influential over the years. A pity his sociopolitical values have proven to be a bit distasteful over the years, but I doubt you guys care about that.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2025-01-18 05:50
ClarinetGod wrote:
> more affordable isn't better. $2k vs $9k is a big difference
> and i'd rather have the wooden one over the rubber any day. i
> would just buy a new one if it cracks
Affordability still can be a selling point as not everyone, even if they're pros, can afford a $9K Tosca, let alone simply replacing it with a new one whenever one cracks (and that CAN be fixed depending how deep the crack goes, but that's another discussion). Perhaps that might be something financially feasible for you, but certainly not the case for everyone.
Wood or rubber, 2K or 9K, Ridenour or Buffet(or any other brand)- if an Eb (or any clarinet in general) isn't well designed AND properly set up then tough luck.
Josh
Post Edited (2025-01-18 19:42)
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2025-01-18 05:54
SecondTry: Rather surprised that Backun hasn't come out with their Eb yet, given their experience with making her instrument!
But I digress.
Josh
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-18 06:02
lf I remember correctly there is research out there that the body material is pretty much neutral/inert accoustically. I have it somewhere... FME it is pretty much about this being a good horn. As we generally know Ebs are a bit challenging.
IMO Josh, you are right on the money.
Post Edited (2025-01-18 10:43)
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-04 10:20
Lol. Tom Ridenour was talking about how expensive clarinets are unnecessary on David Blumberg's facebook group when every single professional uses one. I also can't forget the L takes like "it's the player, not the instrument" coming from some idiot with an R13.
Post Edited (2025-02-04 10:22)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-04 22:29
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> Lol. Tom Ridenour was talking about how expensive clarinets are
> unnecessary on David Blumberg's facebook group when every
> single professional uses one. I also can't forget the L takes
> like "it's the player, not the instrument" coming from some
> idiot with an R13.
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-02-04 10:22)
I think you misinterpreted what he said and meant.
What Tom is saying essentially asking you to consider is "What puts the price in these clarinets?"
He's not saying that 100% of the price is put into the labor, skill, and materials of clarinet manufacturing. He's saying that there is a lot of bloating of these prices to support not only large distribution channels, but the government mandated retirement plans of these companies in the countries where they are domiciled.
With his time with Leblanc France clarinet manufacturing, he speaks from experience.
https://www.rclarinetproducts.com/the-more-it-costs
I'm not saying that french-made clarinets are not of quality. Every professional, as you said, has probably had an R13 at some point in their career (maybe not purchased new?). I'm not a professional, but I had an R13, Festival, and a pre-R13. I even had a Leblanc LL A clarinet a long time ago.
Today, I could get a Bb and A clarinet set from Ridenour and still have about $800 in my pocket compared to a new Buffet R13 with nickel plated keys.
As far as equipment makes the player, it's a Ying/Yang thing. At times, the clarinet is the hindering factor and when the equipment improves, then it's the player being the hindering factor. We go back and forth for every little advantage either in our playing or our equipment to refine our craft.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-05 02:52
"Expensive clarinets are unnecessary"
That's what he said and it was in response to someone saying that having an expensive clarinet is very important and having a cheap clarinet can hold someone back as a musician especially compared to someone else who has an R13 or better. It sickens me to see people believing Ridenour's crap when I used to believe it and it didn't do me any good.
I heard some people were bashing on Ridenour on Blumberg's FB group. Do you know what happened?
Post Edited (2025-02-05 02:53)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-05 03:05
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> "Expensive clarinets are unnecessary"
>
> That's what he said and it was in response to someone saying
> that having an expensive clarinet is very important and having
> a cheap clarinet can hold someone back as a musician especially
> compared to someone else who has an R13 or better. It sickens
> me to see people believing Ridenour's crap when I used to
> believe it and it didn't do me any good.
>
> I heard some people were bashing on Ridenour on Blumberg's FB
> group. Do you know what happened?
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-02-05 02:53)
It wasn't in Blumberg's FB group but another one. Blumberg defended Tom in his own group.
Here's that link:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Clarinetist/permalink/8934860676612578
For my own experience, I was critical, primarily of the mechanism. Aside from the thumb rest saddle issue, I also used some sand paper on the left hand F/C rod to free up that key more. When the instrument was cold, it would barely move until it 'warmed up.' I think I finally have that solved. I've gone through a lot of key oil getting the instrument to my standard.
Also, the gold plating on my instrument faded rather quickly because I used probably a too abrasive gold/silver polishing cloth. I got a Caswell plating kit and silver-plated those posts. Looks pretty good!
Tom private messaged me about my comments on that thread. He told me he's discontinued the AureA until he works out more of the mechanics. Although the things he mentions, I didn't have a problem with. For me, it was very slight, but problematic key fitting (and the thumb saddle threw my hand out of the proper placement, but I didn't realize that was my big issue).
As far as the playing characteristics of the instrument, I am VERY pleased.
I don't know your experience, but my clarinet needed more fine-tuning than it really should require. I am pleased with it... now.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-05 03:08
Tom's reply was:
Tom Ridenour
Top contributor
David H. Kinder David, I"m sorry you went all through that. I'm very disenamored with the left hand Ab/Eb key.
What did the Thumb adjustment do to make things work? Improved hand position?
So we're discontinuing the model for now.
It may resume if we're happy with a new design.
We really get very few complaints, but they take a lot of time to get adjusted. It's not worth the frustration. You, IMHO, always get a better with the standard mechanism.
I have complained about the plating and the improved plating on the recent models look really beautiful.
In my years at Leblanc I always disliked the LH Ab/Eb, not because of the technical issues but because the added key placement and weight seemed to change the ringing, responsiveness, and resonance qualities of the clarinet.
In short, the clarinets just doesn't ring right. I tested dozens and dozens of Opus/Concerto clarinets, and the results were the same. I always played the Concerto clarinet myself. It was such a vibrant, responsive instrument.
There was no change in my experience with the Aurea/Libertas II. I love playing the Libertas II.
I only decided to produce the Aurea because players seemed to want it. I often tried to talk them out of buying it. Because I was sure they would get a better horn with the standard mechanism.. But some people will not listen. Fine.
We know Harold Wright's playing was incomparable for its nuance and subtlety---to my knowledge he never had any interested in playing the LH Ab/Eb modification. I never saw him play the LH Ab/Eb, and I saw and heard him play a LOT.
I know it sounds stupid. But that's good enough for me. I think he was sensitive to the clarity and vibrancy of the clarinet. He liked a lot of clarity and ring in the sound, for sure.
And later he said this:
We're not having to pay massive French socialist retirements, so our horns are inexpensive and won't crack---at all. Ever!
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-05 05:31
Yet, Ridenour is not as big as Buffet nor Backun nor Selmer after 15 years.
Post Edited (2025-02-05 05:31)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-05 07:01
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> Yet, Ridenour is not as big as Buffet nor Backun nor Selmer
> after 15 years.
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-02-05 05:31)
Size has nothing to do with quality
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-05 08:09
It's pretty rare to see someone using a Ridenour. I can't recall seeing anyone else using one in person. If Ridenour has high quality clarinets, shouldn't they be as big as Buffet? Even Backun, which was founded in 2000, is much bigger and on par with Buffet.
Post Edited (2025-02-05 09:23)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-05 10:54
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> It's pretty rare to see someone using a Ridenour. I can't
> recall seeing anyone else using one in person. If Ridenour has
> high quality clarinets, shouldn't they be as big as Buffet?
> Even Backun, which was founded in 2000, is much bigger and on
> par with Buffet.
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-02-05 09:23)
It's often rare to see anyone using a clarinet other than the big 3: Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha.
It's not their intention to be "the biggest." If it is, they'd have to pour in FAR more money into marketing and promotion... which, in turn, drives up the cost of their instruments.
Buffet Crampon has been around for 200 years this year. Huge distribution chain and lots spent on marketing, etc. I've heard estimates that Buffet is about 85% of the clarinet market.
Backun has been around for quite a while, but keep in mind that both companies also "sponsor" artists to compensate or pay them with discounted gear (or free gear) to promote their brand. They have a striking design of their instruments which also helps promote their brand by those who play them.
How does Ridenour promote themselves? Very grass roots.
- Website (it's a simple Wix site)
- YouTube (Very simple videos and mild editing)
- Other people's YouTube content: Josh Johnson promoted his Libertas after owning it for two years as well as Ridenour Low-C bass clarinet.
- Participation in social media and discussion groups like these, including Reddit.
- eBay and Reverb listings
- They've made appearances at the ICA events in the past; I remember seeing pics of their booth on Facebook.
- A few music stores (2-3 in the US) and a few scattered around the world.
- Referrals from satisfied players
- Those who are just curious.
I think that's about it.
They put out great content promoting Tom's expertise on the clarinet and you can be the judge.
I first heard about him from this forum here about 25 years ago. I read his articles about the challenges of learning proper pitch for young students and how much of it is improper tuning of the instrument and his solution was hard rubber clarinets and he laid out his logic. The articles made sense to me. I bought my clarinet 3 years ago and now I'm back playing in a community band and getting better week by week.
But as far as I can tell, it's only Tom and his son Ted. If they have a low cost of production and low overhead (remember that overhead can KILL a business), if they're making it work on the scale they want... that's good enough for me.
Their offer is simple: Give it a trial run. If you like it, you'll enjoy keeping it. If you don't like it, send it back.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-05 12:50
It says a lot when professionals choose "unnecessary" $4k+ clarinets from Buffet and Backun over his cheap clarinets even after his long essay bashing on expensive clarinets. Martin Frost and Sabine Meyer both use $10k+ clarinets. Ridenour clarinets just aren't that good. If they were even equal to an R13, professionals would buy them in a heartbeat.
I think Ridenour clarinets are fairly well-known. I think most professionals would know about them.
Post Edited (2025-02-05 12:56)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-02-05 18:51
The thing we should always remember is that everyone and every company has their own angle. It lies with the player to decide. Some companies will justify what they do because they can't actually produce what another does.
Professional clarinet players aren't stupid - they play what truly works for them and most, not all, can't afford to make a change to something very different.
I'm sure Ridenour is doing pretty well and doesn't need to compete with top-end models from the major companies.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-05 21:11
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> It says a lot when professionals choose "unnecessary" $4k+
> clarinets from Buffet and Backun over his cheap clarinets even
> after his long essay bashing on expensive clarinets. Martin
> Frost and Sabine Meyer both use $10k+ clarinets. Ridenour
> clarinets just aren't that good. If they were even equal to an
> R13, professionals would buy them in a heartbeat.
>
> I think Ridenour clarinets are fairly well-known. I think most
> professionals would know about them.
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-02-05 12:56)
This will be my last reply to you as I can tell you're set in your thinking... and that's okay.
Different people value different things. Some people really want the best from a long-time established manufacturer and are willing to pay for it.
It wasn't long ago that the standard R13 was THE standard. Now, the R13 is largely seen as an "entry-level" professional clarinet. Clarinet manufacturers have discovered (as many other brands in the world) that there are people who will pay top dollar for a luxury item that didn't exist until they decided to make it.
How many pro-level clarinets does Buffet Crampon have? Far more than they did 30 years ago.
Why? Because people will buy it.
Why do they buy it? They believe that more expensive = better.
Is it? Maybe psychologically it is... for them. Maybe feeling that they have the best clarinet in the band or orchestra gives them a certain feeling within them when they play? Don't discount the psychology.
It's called confirmation bias.
I believe that they are better than an R13, but that's my belief and my own experience. You don't have to believe that.
In a completely unrelated industry, I am writing a business owner financial planning course complete with financial analysis tools, academic resources, mindset shifts, and much much more.
The organization I'm doing it for, wanted to sell it for only $1,200.
That's far too low. It won't be taken seriously in the industry at that price.
I told them as much citing various other courses aren't even 1/4th the value. If we want to be taken seriously, it needs to be priced higher.
When we launch it, I'm thinking it will be launched for $1,995... but that might only be a 1st year special to get it off the ground. I'll probably increase it to $2,495 the next year.
What does this have to do with this thread? Having a '1' (or any low number) as the first number in the price... tells us BY COMPARISON how I should value it.
If the price started with a '2' or a '3', I bet you'd give it more consideration, even though the properties of the instrument didn't change.
That's how marketing can work for and against us.
Ridenour is communicating that it isn't necessary to spend many thousands in order to get a quality instrument. In his case, it can be true... according to the preferences of the player.
It's either a fantastic bargain, or a waste no matter the price.
Just be aware of how we think and challenge your own biases. We don't necessarily know if they are working for our best interests or not.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-05 22:50
Buffet and Backun clarinets are better than Ridenour clarinets, so the pricing is justified. I'd rather pay for the French manufacturers' retirements for their great work than pay for a cheap, mediocre product.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-02-06 13:13
Further to what David mentioned most people, most of the time, for most decisions make emotional decisions. It can be difficult to separate the emotion from fact. Throw in some personal choice and some opinions and you end up with a shambles for some decisions.There is a bunch of criteria that would need to be developed and weighted to a achieve some sort of objectivity on what is the best clarinet and the reasons for that decision.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2025-02-06 17:24
Some balancing of perspective is in order, though. So much has been written here about Ridenour clarinets, yet I would wager more time went into writing the words on this thread alone than was spent playing a Ridenour clarinet in a full-time orchestra in the U.S. last year.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-07 09:49
Well, I just found out that Tom Ridenour had made some very questionable posts on Facebook. Maybe mad that his company isn't as popular as Backun and Buffet?
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-07 23:16
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> Well, I just found out that Tom Ridenour had made some very
> questionable posts on Facebook. Maybe mad that his company
> isn't as popular as Backun and Buffet?
I think you're deflecting.
I think you change your handle to mask who you really are ("ClarinetGod").
I think you like to troll on things that don't conform to your world view.
I think that if you really are "ClarinetGod" (as I suspect) that you're still so bitter about your Medini clarinet holding you back that you lash out at anything you perceive as inferior.
I think that you're the one that David Blumberg personally blocked and defended Ridenour against in the other Facebook group.
I think you have your head up your ***.
I think you don't know how to think.
I think that if this was my forum, that I wouldn't let you keep posting your drivel because you need help and we're not licensed therapists to help you.
I think that no one really cares what you think and you just feel the need attention and you found something to get people riled up about.
I think that the fact that Ridenour's clarinets take up so much space in your head rent free... must be a real concern and cause for your lack of critical thinking skills.
But that's just what I think.
Don't you have something better to do and think about???
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2025-02-08 00:43
David, are you safe?
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-08 01:03
J. J. wrote:
> David, are you safe?
🤣 Yes, I'm fine! 🤣
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-08 04:32
Lol. You're being a real clown now. You posted a video of someone with bad tone quality trying to prove that instrument doesn't matter and that only the player matters. She was doing a glissando which anyone with at least two years of clarinet training can do on any clarinet. It had nothing to do with tone quality. I wasn't the one attacking Ridenour on that FB group. You can join the clarinet discord server and see how many people hate Ridenour and Blumberg. Only people with no critical thinking skills would say that I have no critical thinking skills. We can prove this.
Post Edited (2025-02-08 04:45)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-08 04:46
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> Lol. You're being a real clown now. You posted a video of
> someone with bad tone quality trying to prove that instrument
> doesn't matter and that only the player matters. She was doing
> a glissando which anyone with at least two years of clarinet
> training can do on any clarinet. It had nothing to do with tone
> quality. I wasn't the one attacking Ridenour on that FB group.
> You can join the clarinet discord server and see how many
> people hate Ridenour and Blumberg. Only people with no critical
> thinking skills would say that I have no critical thinking
> skills. We can prove this.
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-02-08 04:42)
Wow. Now I'm living rent-free in your head. So much room here to stretch out.
Too bad there's no way to block you here, but your identity is clearly known to me.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-08 04:47
Have you figured out where your lack of band director's support hurt you yet?
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-08 04:48
You posted this. You spent a lot more time making this response. You said you will stop replying to me, but you did. I'm in your head rent-free.
"I think you're deflecting.
I think you change your handle to mask who you really are ("ClarinetGod").
I think you like to troll on things that don't conform to your world view.
I think that if you really are "ClarinetGod" (as I suspect) that you're still so bitter about your Medini clarinet holding you back that you lash out at anything you perceive as inferior.
I think that you're the one that David Blumberg personally blocked and defended Ridenour against in the other Facebook group.
I think you have your head up your ***.
I think you don't know how to think.
I think that if this was my forum, that I wouldn't let you keep posting your drivel because you need help and we're not licensed therapists to help you.
I think that no one really cares what you think and you just feel the need attention and you found something to get people riled up about.
I think that the fact that Ridenour's clarinets take up so much space in your head rent free... must be a real concern and cause for your lack of critical thinking skills.
But that's just what I think.
Don't you have something better to do and think about???"
Post Edited (2025-02-08 04:49)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-08 04:52
At least I use my real name.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-02-08 04:57
Attachment: Doesn\'t play well with others.png (62k)
I guess you don't play well with others - a core requirement for success in any endeavor, especially being a musician.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Legere French Cut #4 / #4.25
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-02-08 05:02
Three posts in a row. Yikes. I choose how I name myself online. No one cares about what Ridenour thinks. People don't follow his advice. I've seen it for myself. His advice would not have helped me back then.
Post Edited (2025-02-08 05:06)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-02-08 05:43
Disclaimer: The following is totally OT:
Is OmniClarinet314 the same person as ClarinetGod?
ClarinetGod wrote above in this thread: “i got myself a $4k R13 and it plays much better than my $900 high school hard rubber clarinet. disproves everything he said.” In a fairly recent thread about Baptiste Amet, http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=513427&t=513427, ClarinetGod revealed to me that he played a Mendini in high school after I asked him directly. (His response was deleted entirely.)
OmniClarinet314 wrote above: “It sickens me to see people believing Ridenour's crap when I used to believe it and it didn't do me any good.” In 2017, OmniClarinet314 wrote about having a fuzzy tone on his Ridenour 576bc: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=459563&t=459560
So, are ClarinetGod and OmniClarinet314 the same person? It sure seems like it to me. Their bashing writing styles against hard rubber clarinets in this thread are quite similar. (mo) ClarinetGod, in this thread, almost never capitalizes the first letter of a new sentence whereas OmniClarinet314 always does. However, in ClarinetGod’s postings in the Baptiste Amet thread, all new sentences have capital letters in the first word. In this thread, ClarinetGod wrote about his $900 high school hard rubber clarinet. This is where it gets confusing for me because ClarinetGod stated through an Amazon URL that he had a Mendini clarinet when I asked him directly what he played in high school in the Baptiste Amet thread. So, it definitely appears to me that ClarinetGod is giving 2 different answers as to what clarinet he actually played in high school. (A $900 hard rubber clarinet in this thread and a Mendini in the Amet thread.)
I just read through the entire OmniClarinet314 year 2017 thread and I came across the following sentence: "I would like to know if my tone quality is good enough to make TMEA All-State in TX or All-State in any state." So, ClarinetGod and OmniClarinet314 are both from Texas and both were going for All-State. Speaking for myself only, ClarinetGod and OmniClarinet314 are definitely the same person.
I apologize for the diversion.
Post Edited (2025-02-08 06:51)
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Author: ClarinetGod
Date: 2025-02-08 06:56
No, we’re not the same person, snowflake.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-02-08 07:20
ClarinetGod,
Just for verification, what was the brand name of your $900 hard rubber clarinet you had in high school?
I'm sure you remember it.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-02-08 08:18
OK, I think it's time to close this down. Good night, all!
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2025-02-08 20:54
Yes, you are. or close neighbor.
Your IP (and pretty much any other IP handed to you by your host) is banned now. For both of you. Something I rarely do for real users.
Post Edited (2025-02-08 20:55)
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The Clarinet Pages
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